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Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
@scooterist avatar
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
Fellow scooterist,


How are you? I finally decided to create a fresh topic sharing my experiences after converting my good running 05 PX 150 into a PX with a P200 engine. I hope that you wouldn't feel uncomfortable with a long write up, there is no short history on this one.

Here it goes, I had a perfectly running 05 PX150 that I fitted it with a malossi 166cc shortly after acquiring it. The engine also had the sito plus and a bigger carburetor with the cross drilled heart and all of that. I went everywhere at full throttle, I am absolutely not kidding you, traffic light to traffic light and open roads.

I put roughly 3000 miles of hard driving but my 2 biggest complaints were: 1) the kit was weak on acceleration 2) the engine was screaming high

The scooter would hit 70-75mph (tucked in) but with a margin of speedometer error of 11mph so in reality I was doing 60-64 mph and like I said it sounded extremely high pitch and it never gave me the confidence of jumping into a HWY or interstate because I was always scare that I was going to blow up the engine and therefore I always rode with the hand over the clutch lever just in case.

Fast forward and I decided to do something that I now regret. I had a perfectly working 71 Sprint veloce with a P200 engine(same engine we are discussing in a moment) and it had a malossi 210.

I decided to pay a former vespa mechanic to do a full engine swap. The PX150 in my opinion was the perfect scooter because I always maintain it in tip top condition, it had good lights, good horn good brakes, suspension.

The mechanic put the engine in and that is where I got less than desirable results. I don't know how but my horn doesn't work now, my high beam doesn't turn on and the engine doesn't turn off, I think all has to do with the wiring on the engine side and not so much the working near the battery because we didn't touch that. In addition to that I obviously lost my electric starter and my auto lube system since the P200 engine didn't have the oil box, gearing or the whole for the starter.

I received the scooter with the P200 engine(p200with malossi) running bad. I would have to kick the engine 10-12 times just to get it started and once it starts it would rev the hell out of it at "iddle". I tried my best to do the logical steps to shoot, making sure the mechanic didn't miss anything.

The first time I took it on the hay the engine would pull OK on 1st and 2nd but it would bog down badly on 3rd and 4th. I found a pinched fuel line, the mechanic put a fat generic fuel line from auto zone and the tank was smashing the line.

Unable to get the engine to properly idle or to start or bogging down I decide to give two fucks about the scooter for over a year and continue to ride my other P200E instead which by the way, it has the same set up(same carb and malossi kit).

A couple of day ago I was about to pull the trigga and put my malossi 166 engine on it and restore the scooter the way it was with a working horn, high beam, auto lube, starter but I decided to give a try and retouch the carburetor.

The PX150 had no fuel , no battery and had almost flat tire, no registration and no insurance but it hurt me seeing it the scooter get dusty in the garage so I put gas, air and recharged the battery. I managed to get the engine to start on the first or second kick and I also manage to stabilize the idle. Believe it or not the actual idle screw on top wouldn't do a damn thing but the mixture screw on the back of the carb will settle things.

I registered the bike today and got the insurance and went for a few long test rides. The scooter pulls fine on first, second and third but falls flat on its face the moment I shifts to fourth gear. I can get over 50mph in second, about 65-70 in third but as soon as I switch 4th gear it wouldn't pass the revs, it appears that my gearing is too tall for this malossi kit.


My final conclusion is to put my blame suit because a few of you guys told me a year and a half ago that I should go for the shorter gear to waking up the revs on the malossi. Ironically, I am now stuck with a PX150 with a jewel engine that can't rev and has even less top speed than before on the malossi 166cc. There is no way out of this one, either I change the christmass tree to a shorter gearing or else. Some of you also told me: get a bigger bike for open roads, why, interstates... you are right!


On a different note, what should I look for to fix the high beam, horn? Thanks!
UTC

parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5242
 
parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5242
UTC quote
Hi scooterist,
I've swapped two different 200 engines into my 2005 PX150's (I might do a third, but I haven't made up my mind just yet). I think the '05 PX is an excellent building block for a very reliable scooter since most of them have very low miles. That means that all the electrical parts "should" still be in tip top shape. Also the '05 PX has the disc brake (of course), not 40 year old wire harnesses, a super bright 55/60 watt headlight, and no rust.

I first swapped in my P200 (that already had a EFL gearbox) into my '05 PX, then about a year later I found some E-start EFL cases, so I moved all my EFL bits into the E-start cases. So essentially it's now a PX200. My other '05 PX I swapped in yet another E-start EFL engine that I had built up into a PX215.

The swaps are very easy and straightforward. I think the only way to screw things up is if someone tried using the stator out of the P engine and tries to rewire it to fit in with the '05 PX. My thoughts about your electrical issues are look at the obvious first...
-make sure your high beam filament isn't burned out. Does the blue high beam indicator in your speedo work? The PX also has a headlight relay that's located behind the battery tray. But i'm all but positive that it's for both HI and LOW beam, so it shouldn't be the culprit.
-if the engine isn't turning off with the ignition key, check under the horn cast were it connects into the "multi plug" connector block. Also pop off your flywheel and double check to see which stator is there. There's also the notorious "green" wire that goes to your CDI that perhaps came unplugged (or pinched or broken during the swap).
-horn not working? Remove the horncasting, and look to see if the white wire and the yellow wire are both plugged in to the horn. After that, pop off the stator to double check to see which stator you have. The P stator might not work with the PX horn.

Lots of these checks would be faster if you have a multi meter.

As for 210 gearing...you should be using a short 4th gear (36 tooth 4th gear from an early non-EFL P125. If you had an EFL transmission, then you'd use a 36 tooth T5 4th gear). You would also want the standard 23 tooth clutch and 65 tooth primary that came stock on all the 200's.

Oh, and you can't blame me for telling you any tuning advice. The only tuning I recommend to anyone it to swap in a stock 200 engine...got a PX150?...swap in a P200. Got a Allstate?...pogo in a P200. Smallframe scooter?...squeeze in a P200. Honda CR500?...how about a Honda CRP200. Honda Civic VTEC?...nope, cook up a VP200TEC. Chevy 454?...try heavy Chevy P200.
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UTC

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
@scooterist avatar
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
^^ Thanks for your reply. This brings me memories for 2-3 years ago when as I mentioned I was complaining of my malossi 166cc screaming(in a bad way), basically going full tootle with speedometer indicating 70-72mph and the scooter really doing actually about 60mph GPS.

I considered doing a taller gear kit but I think I would have ran into the same issues, no more speed but lower revs.

Right now the way my PX 150 with the Malossi 210 engine sits I am at low revs in 4th gear but at very low real sped(maybe 55mph gps).

I think that you are correct about the stator, I believe that I did not use the vespa original stator from factory.

As far is performance, the scooter pulls very well, I even have the mazzuchelli full circle crankshaft, malossi 210, 26 carb, and sito plus. I just did 55 mph in second gear(speedometer indicated) and I can let her rev to 70 mph in third but by the time I shift to 4th the speeds drops slightly and the engine wouldn't rev any higher. I still have a couple of cards on my sleeve, I would try an expansion chamber and see how it goes, I have a boomstick laying around and a simonini.
UTC

parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
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parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
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UTC quote
If you don't have the original Euro style PX stator, you might have to to switch back to it to get the rest of your electronics working. I find that the Euro stator is much better than the old p series stator. It puts out more watts at all RPMs, which equal bright lights and better charging. I still think you might have a burned out high beam filament, but if it's not that, then I suspect the stator (if the stator isn't the same one that came in the PX).

I guess the only reason I could see that the PX stator wasn't used in the P200 cases, was the the long hole in the P case is a smaller diameter than the one in the PX. When that's the case I just remove the pins from the cylindrical connector, slide the wires through the hole, then pop them back into the connector.

As for power fading off in 4th in your 210, that definitely sounds like you're over geared. A 36 tooth 4th gear should cure that problem. It's also quite possibly that your 26/26 carb could be causing you grief as well. They can be VERY difficult to dial in. You might be better off going back to a 24/24, or stepping up to a Dellorto 25, 28, or most likely a 30 mil (depending upon what kind of riding you like to do).
UTC

Hooked
1970 Sprint 150 & PX 200 / 225 and a shed full o shit
Joined: UTC
Posts: 174
Location: New Zealand
 
Hooked
1970 Sprint 150 & PX 200 / 225 and a shed full o shit
Joined: UTC
Posts: 174
Location: New Zealand
UTC quote
How about removing the Malossi kit and putting a standard 200 barrel and piston back on? Std 200s are sweet.

Some one on this forum might be keen to swap with you.
UTC

parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5242
 
parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
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UTC quote
PC73 wrote:
How about removing the Malossi kit and putting a standard 200 barrel and piston back on? Std 200s are sweet.

Some one on this forum might be keen to swap with you.
psh...not me. I'm loving my stock 200 top end!
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4598
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4598
Location: London UK
UTC quote
From the way you describe it revving and knowing how difficult the 26/26 is to jet in, WDC is right. The jetting is no good. Probably overgeared. And if you want performance you need to know what the port timing is.
The old Malossi 210 is good for 75mph GPS on the flat but to get it there it takes a lot of fettling work to set up.
UTC

Hooked
1970 Sprint 150 & PX 200 / 225 and a shed full o shit
Joined: UTC
Posts: 174
Location: New Zealand
 
Hooked
1970 Sprint 150 & PX 200 / 225 and a shed full o shit
Joined: UTC
Posts: 174
Location: New Zealand
UTC quote
whodatschrome wrote:
PC73 wrote:
How about removing the Malossi kit and putting a standard 200 barrel and piston back on? Std 200s are sweet.

Some one on this forum might be keen to swap with you.
psh...not me. I'm loving my stock 200 top end!
Yeah maaaate. And my stock exhaust too
OP
@scooterist avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
@scooterist avatar
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
PC73 wrote:
How about removing the Malossi kit and putting a standard 200 barrel and piston back on? Std 200s are sweet.

Some one on this forum might be keen to swap with you.
I actually (no kidding) thought about putting the stock P200 barrel and piston and see if that would move the power/rpm range in favor of the gearing. I think that when I shift to 4th on the malossi I am just below that "happy" power band and at 65-70mph the wind isn't helping. I am currently running a sito plus but I might just work on my other expansion chambers to see if that helps the issue.

I ironically I have a P200E with almost identical set-up but it keeps raving nicely in 4th gear.
UTC

parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5242
 
parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5242
UTC quote
scooterist wrote:
PC73 wrote:
How about removing the Malossi kit and putting a standard 200 barrel and piston back on? Std 200s are sweet.

Some one on this forum might be keen to swap with you.
I actually (no kidding) thought about putting the stock P200 barrel and piston and see if that would move the power/rpm range in favor of the gearing. I think that when I shift to 4th on the malossi I am just below that "happy" power band and at 65-70mph the wind isn't helping. I am currently running a sito plus but I might just work on my other expansion chambers to see if that helps the issue.

I ironically I have a P200E with almost identical set-up but it keeps raving nicely in 4th gear.
I would think that installing an expansion chamber would make it worse. A Stio+ would probably have more torque to get you past the RPM wall. But it woon't hurt to try. Just make sure that you upjet a bunch if you swap pipes!
OP
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UTC

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
@scooterist avatar
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
So I was working on the scooter and found a ground wire that was not properly grounded. It is the big ground wire that attaches to the engine fan shroud. I put it back on and all the sudden I fixed 3 things:

1) horn
2) kill button
3) high beam

I think I am going to put a spare 24/24 and see if I can get rid of the initial "bog". The engine dies at idle if you give a rev to fast. You have to let it rev slowly.
UTC

parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5242
 
parallelogramerist
Joined: UTC
Posts: 5242
UTC quote
scooterist wrote:
So I was working on the scooter and found a ground wire that was not properly grounded. It is the big ground wire that attaches to the engine fan shroud. I put it back on and all the sudden I fixed 3 things:

1) horn
2) kill button
3) high beam

I think I am going to put a spare 24/24 and see if I can get rid of the initial "bog". The engine dies at idle if you give a rev to fast. You have to let it rev slowly.
Nice! Free, easy, fast fixes are the best!!!
OP
@scooterist avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
 
Molto Verboso
@scooterist avatar
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1558
Location: Tucson, AZ
UTC quote
Well, here is a quick update. After spending between 1 and 2 hours over the span of several days trying minimal adjustments on the mixture and idle screw I gave up. (keep reading for the good news)

The scooter was going into a closed loop(cycle), either bogging down when you give some gas or idling very high and now bogging down. I adjusted the mixture screw on 1/8 of a turn increments(both ways) to see what effect it would have on the overall response. Found out that it would make the engine rev to high or too low (die) or bog down or not bog down and have instead high iddle during shifts.


I decided to buy a expensive 1 gallon carburetor cleaning chemical. I removed the carburetor and completely dismantled it and put it in a special tray submerged on the strong carb cleaning chemical. I made sure that the gaskets were not submerged. I left the entire carb and hardware dipped overnight.

Woke up this morning and the liquid was still releasing small bubbles. I gave it a quick rinse and I blasted every hole with 150psi compressed air.

The bad news is that the carburetor came up absolutely nasty, I was expecting a shiny carburetor and I ended up with a black and sticky carburetor, similar to when you do the brake pads and spray the brakes nd calipers with brake cleaner, everything turns black.

I had to spray it with purple green and scrub everything again even after the carb was submerged overnight. Fast forward. I put the carb back in and gave a random 2 turns out on the mixture screw.

First kick and it started right of way, (good sign), idle was perfect, I gave it some throttle and realized that I forgot to put the throttle cable, but believe it or not the engine would stay idling well.

Went for a ride around the neighborhood and I had no more hesitation nor the idle was high anymore. I thought for a moment that my tenacity paid off but I noticed a small puddle of fuel and I also noticed the carburetor was spitting fuel around the mixture screw.

I decided to remove the air filter and look to see where the fuel was coming from, remember, the engine was running perfect. Found the source of the fuel leak, it was the top screw on the main fuel bowl, the one that pressed the big round top. I tightened back in and now I had the same issues (bad idle), high raving, hesitations.

I decided to take a look at the idle screw, I use to run a 55-160 with a whole. I changed it to a 50-160 and no whole and everything is now solved. FINALLY!!! who-hoo
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