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@sdjohn avatar
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Johnny Two Tone
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
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Johnny Two Tone
@sdjohn avatar
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UTC quote
I don't want to dirty up my Malossi build thread with this, so I started this on the side. I've had my bike up for sale for about 3 weeks now, with not many nibbles. People I know thought the $3500 price was fair, I've abandoned that in favor of $3200, due to lack of nibbles. So what gives? Is the price out of line? Is it time of year? Or is it simply that a tuned bike has a limited audience of people willing to entertain it? I see solid original bikes listing for more than mine in the SoCal area Craigslists, so it doesn't seem crazy on pricing. To buy a P in this cosmetic condition and add all of the go-fast parts I've got on there would take something like $4k or more. Of course I know you won't get it all back, but it seems funny to be competing in the price range of stock bikes and not getting nibbles. I've got 42+ pages of documentation showing the work that went into it, and it's really sorted now...

Bike is currently on Craigslist, Vintage Scooter Classifieds (FB), MV, and a local San Diego FB page.

Honest feedback is sought, try not to get too flame-y Razz emoticon

[topic167103]
⚠️ Last edited by sdjohn on UTC; edited 6 times
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parallelogramerist
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parallelogramerist
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UTC quote
Your P210 looks very nice (especially with that T5 fender). It has nothing to do with your build. Tuned Vespas are very difficult to sell (especially a tuned P2). Even kitted Smallframes (including hard to find tuned PK's) don't have much of a resale value. Even if you converted over to a full hydro front brake, it MIGHT add only $200 to your final selling price. On the other hand it seems that tuned (225 and larger) Lambrettas are MUCH earier to sell, and are almost a prerequisite. It goes the same way in the automotive and motorcycle world as well though.

*i would spend the few dollars and some time to clean up the wires some (for aesthetics). Add a selector box cover, install a $5 CDI rubber accordion boot, run the green kill wire inside the existing loom, and slip a short piece of black heatshrink over the TT red tac wire, and it will look super clean under that cowl (the carb hose clamps are lined up, so that looks pro). Then take new pictures of it. Will it help the sale of the scoot?...who knows, but that's the sort of things that i pay attention to.
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@sdjohn avatar
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Johnny Two Tone
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
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Johnny Two Tone
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UTC quote
Those are good suggestions, especially since I've already sorted the selector cover and removed the tach altogether (I'm keeping that). I might have a boot in my stash too, so some new pictures wouldn't hurt.
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Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
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Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
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UTC quote
People like to tune their own. Everyone's favourite Vespa is the barn find that they have subsequently improved/restored/tuned. Somehow the one that has already been restored or tuned by somebody else has limited appeal, no matter how good or how much has been spent. Your 40+ page thread gives a blow by blow account of what has been done, but most don't, and this would be a concern to prospective buyers.

If you go down the tuning route, your resale market is limited, but a stock P200 in original paint will have a long queue of buyers. I have a PX125 with 15 miles from new and it's exactly as it left the factory. I have a new VMC 177 kit on the shelf, but I know that if I were to install it on the PX125, the scooter's perceived value would immediately be reduced. Sad but true.
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Hooked
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I'm just starting to learn about the used Vespa / vintage market.
If it's anything like the used motorcycle market it comes down to this.

Just how badly do you want to sell ?
All the go fast stuff is only worth something to a buyer if they understand exactly what it is and how to benefit from it.

My feelings are ,
I hope you enjoyed all that chrome, go fast, make more noise, improve handling etc, because it's not worth a cent to me as the buyer .
Unless it is exactly the way I would have done it.

Plus , you need to be able to convince the buyer that you are as good a mechanic as you say you are for them to trust your work.

Good luck on the sale anyway.
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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UTC quote
I thought the price was pretty reasonable as well.

The people who are not interested in a tuned scooter (I think) are not interested because they haven't ridden a good one. A back to back comparison ride on yours vs stock I'm sure would sell it pretty quickly.

Actually if you put a sip road on it, then put up a new ad that said very little about what's been done to it (perhaps other than "x miles on new motor") it might draw a few more in?
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Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '87 PK125XL '92 PK50XLS Plurimatic - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
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UTC quote
swa45 wrote:
...
... I have a PX125 with 15 miles from new and it's exactly as it left the factory. I have a new VMC 177 kit on the shelf, but I know that if I were to install it on the PX125, the scooter's perceived value would immediately be reduced. Sad but true.
I always put whatever stock parts are removed on the shelf, safe and well labeled.
Try the kit, you wanted it & paid for it! WCGW? I don't see you selling so what do you care about 'value' now?
Fun can sometimes trump mere value.
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Johnny Two Tone
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UTC quote
I have a SIP road on the shelf as well as other stock components. I've entertained removing some goodies for resale, but I thought it would be better as it is. The last thing I wanted to do though is to have to retune it much by changing much. Kind of done with that for now but maybe it's worth thinking about.
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Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
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Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
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UTC quote
When I think of a tuned bike, my first impressions are fast, doctored, jury rigged, ridden hard (most likely abused), and unreliable. I'm certainly not saying any of these apply to your great looking bike, but a stock bike doesn't conjure up these perceptions unless it was 'restored' in Ho Chi Minh City or Islamabad.😀

This is the same with anything that's been modified. In the world of vintage watches, if the dial has been refurbished (repainted), the watch loses about a third of its value no matter how nicely it was restored.
⚠️ Last edited by nomadinsiam on UTC; edited 1 time
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@sdjohn avatar
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Johnny Two Tone
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UTC quote
So would it help or hurt to link the 42 page thread directly in the ad? I'm not sure. I'm glad for the feedback, it helps me understand what potential buyers might be thinking. Somehow I have to convince them it's been done correctly...
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Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
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Ossessionato
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UTC quote
I think that offering them the original parts along with it would help, if you still have them.
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bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
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UTC quote
I think this confirms that scoots have a sort of built in "maximum value". Once we start getting into the tuning game we can pretty much forget about recouping all of the money we spend on go fast stuff. After a certain point, the return is pretty much pennies on the dollar.

The real value was in the fun building it (and of course the 40-page thread).

I'd put the SIP pipe back on, give the whole bike a squeaky clean polish, price it for what a decent stock P200 would go for, sell the PM pipe separately, and be happy.

Oh and by the way, if anybody's interested, I've ridden John's bike. It's worth every penny he's asking. It's fast, solid, smooth and in beautiful shape. It'll make someone very happy.
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Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
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UTC quote
Tough one SDJohn. I've drooled over your machine numerous times. I'm surprised it hasn't sold, and I too think it's priced fairly. It's a badass machine and you've done a great job with it.

I've noticed there is a P210 in Temecula for $3,500 that has been for sale for-ev-er. I don't know what's up with that but it's tuned also.

As far as the 42 page thread - It couldn't hurt. People always like to know what's been done to what they are buying. If they are truly interested and not just looking for something that looks nice, that is.

I've refurbished a 1969 twelve foot canned ham a number of years ago and the thread of the refurbish sold the trailer.

Also the White P200 that I rebuilt and put back into service a few months back was sold from the thread here in ModernVespa. I know the person that bought it had a choice between mine and a few others. He told me it was what he read and he knew what had been done mechanically from the thread.

So I'd link it up - it couldn't hurt! Good luck with the sale. I think your bike is worth it. Now where is the person looking for one that thinks the same....
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Hooked
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Hooked
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Maybe putting an ad in Cycle Trader , or on consignment at a local any brand dealer.
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Johnny Two Tone
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Johnny Two Tone
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Thanks for the input people!

If someone from MV that was non-local wanted it we could try to work with Denver James on shipping, but I've never gone that route.

I'm thinking to get more nibbles we really probably need the price under $3k. Items that could be stripped/sold individually and still not ruin the bike (level 1):

-swap PM EVO pipe for SIP road
-swap S&S head for standard Malossi
-swap MRP intake manifold for Polini manifold

Level 2:
-banded clutch and S&S clutch cover back to stock (that's probably not a good idea)
-remove fuel pump (scaring people??) this isn't really a money saver though

Level 3:
-60mm crank (back to stock)
-Malossi kit (back to P200 top end with new rings)

I'd probably rather lose some money than hit level 3.
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Member
Vespa P125X, Stella 2T
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UTC quote
I have found that Vespas are like VW Beetles. Everyone wants one but they think that because they are so common they should be cheap no matter what condition they are in.
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Johnny Two Tone
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UTC quote
TromboneBob wrote:
I have found that Vespas are like VW Beetles. Everyone wants one but they think that because they are so common they should be cheap no matter what condition they are in.
I think this is especially true with the P series.
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
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UTC quote
I agree that most buyers fall into two different camps:
1) The people who want to do their own build work, e.g. most of us on this forum
2) People who are afraid a tuned bike will be unreliable and can't maintain it themselves

And for most people, $3,500 probably seems like a lot of money for what they generally view as a toy
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Johnny Two Tone
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Johnny Two Tone
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UTC quote
Assuming you have the 2 camps you mention Chandlerman, then I'd probably be better off returning to stock, selling the bike for $2500, and selling pieces like so:

-top end $175
-crank $75
-pipe $175
-S&S head $100
-pwk carb with MRP manifold $150

note: these prices are not fixed yet Razz emoticon

etc. etc. etc. I usually find if you have fancy crap with relatively low miles you can sell it for 60% of new cost and people will jump on it. you can see that for a bit of effort it would likely come out with more money than where I'm currently headed trying to sell it tuned.
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79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62)
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Ossessionato
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UTC quote
sdjohn wrote:
You can see that for a bit of effort it would likely come out with more money than where I'm currently headed trying to sell it tuned.
Crazy, but probably true!
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Johnny Two Tone
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UTC quote
I'm starting to think that if I'm willing to leave the 60mm crank in there and pack up the stock cylinder, that might be the right balance. It would allow me to put on a stock carb and eliminate the fuel pump, pull out the banded clutch and S&S clutch cover, swap to SIP road, and make it a pretty stock-ish bike. I'm not sure if my porting will work with a P200 cylinder though. I can't remember if any JB went in that would be in the way of the stock port.

I found an image - will the JB on the right side impede a stock P200 port?

*edit
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory textUntitled by john.headley, on Flickr
@mjrally avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 59 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 90 V5N 50, 2015 HD Road Glide Special
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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UTC quote
If you need a buyer for leftover stock P200 top ends and the exhaust, you can count on me John.
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
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UTC quote
sdjohn wrote:
I'm starting to think that if I'm willing to leave the 60mm crank in there and pack up the stock cylinder, that might be the right balance.
I'd say this is probably the correct option. You can structure it as "a little extra oomph," but still generally stock. Make up the money on the go-fast parts like you're proposing. They'll sell pretty easily and, if you need to cut a price here or there to move them, you're talking a $25 discount, not a $250 discount.

And even if you needed to take out some JBWeld, that's like thirty seconds worth of work.
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Johnny Two Tone
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Johnny Two Tone
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UTC quote
Yup, I'm with you Chandlerman. It's not too much work and gets max return. Plus I get to try out that hone I've never used yet.
@ginch avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
@ginch avatar
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UTC quote
That bit of JB should knock out relatively easily without grinding etc.

Seems like such a shame though to ruin a good motor!
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parallelogramerist
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parallelogramerist
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UTC quote
I'd almost venture to guess that a Pinasco 215 would be easier to sell than a 210. Just because they're a lower tune cylinder.
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Johnny Two Tone
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Johnny Two Tone
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Ginch wrote:
That bit of JB should knock out relatively easily without grinding etc.

Seems like such a shame though to ruin a good motor!
yeah to me it's nuts but that seems to be the market!
@ape avatar
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Hooked
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Hooked
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UTC quote
Man don't go converting it, I would love the bike but my current P2 is sucking up all my funds at the moment. It's a beautiful bike and will sell.
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Hooked
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Hooked
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UTC quote
As cool as your scooter is, it will appeal to a very small group of enthusiasts. Going back and reading just the end of your 42 page thread seems to me to indicate that your scooter would not be a good fit for anyone who is not ready to make ownership a very involved experience. Even the steps you took finally to fix the idle would give me great pause since a new owner would have no way of knowing precisely how the scooter is configured. You know everything about it since you built it. I would be very reluctant to drop over $3k on a scooter that runs very strong when I buy it, but for which I have no clue what lurks within and for which I could not buy parts without needing a lot of custom work. Where would a new owner even start? I commend you for being very honest and up front about all the work that has gone into it. I can imagine that some sellers would advertise it as a great running scooter with a bit of work, and sell it to someone new to Vespas who might be getting in way over their head. A very small percentage of people have the expertise to understand all you have done and to replicate it as necessary when stuff breaks or wears out.
⚠️ Last edited by apex on UTC; edited 1 time
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bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
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UTC quote
Start a new thread:

"Unbuilding the Build"
@ape avatar
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Hooked
P200E
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Hooked
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UTC quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Start a new thread:

"Unbuilding the Build"
Or "Uncool the Cool?

Could always build another engine bone stock and sell the bike that way. Then take your time trying to sell the modded engine.
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Johnny Two Tone
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UTC quote
I think Apex summed it up nice. I am glad I asked the question, which I wasn't sure I wanted to. To many (most?) the appeal of vintage Vespa is the simplicity, which went out the door a long time ago on my build Laughing emoticon .

Socal - I'm thinking I might just change the name of this thread and do it here. I was already thinking it on my commute today and the fact that you brought it up means I might just do it. Photos to come!
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Hooked
1970 Sprint 150 & PX 200 / 225 and a shed full o shit
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Hooked
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UTC quote
I'm with Apex; yes selling a tuned bike (non-original anything) is difficult.

Nice stock PX = considered bulletproof (and a blank canvas)
Extensively modified PX = considered potential hand grenade

Good luck and all the best,
pc
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@sdjohn avatar
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Johnny Two Tone
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UTC quote
So now that that's settled, here are the outlines for where I'm going.

-Remove banded clutch basket, insert contents into standard clutch basket, reinstall
-Remove S&S clutch cover made for banded clutches, rebuild shaft into stock clutch cover
-Remove PM EVO pipe, replace with SIP Road (where is that blasted exhaust bolt? I looked for it last night but couldn't find it)
-Remove PWK carb and MRP manifold, reinstall standard carb box, install Dellorto SI20.20 carb that came with the bike. I have some documentation in my notes on what the jetting was with SI20.20 and SIP road, it should be pretty easy to dial in (famous last words)
-Shorten throttle and clutch cables as required (easier than fishing new ones, these are the long version for aftermarket carbs)
-Remove fuel pump system
-Remove Malossi 210 Sport cylinder and piston, install stock cylinder and piston. This will require a bit of fiddling due to 60mm crank and the fact that I had material removed from the top of the cylinder and from the cylinder head. Nothing that shouldn't be able to be sorted with packers / head gaskets though.
-Remove small amount of JB weld that is blocking the standard 200 case port
-Retime ignition from 16 to 20ish degrees because I'm not sure where compression will fall with this setup
-Remove spare tire spacers, reinstall 3.5x10 to spare rim instead of small spare
-Remove all wiring from fuel pump (easy, I used nice connectors!)

Expect some photos soon!
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The Dude
Too Many piles of Junk that need too much work and too much money
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The Dude
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UTC quote
Count me signed up for this thread!

My 1.5 cents echo's what most are saying here, and I think you have a good strategy that will enable an easier sale, and hopefully a little more cash in your pocket in the end. It requires more work to unbuild the rebuild, but should be worth it.

A few years back I sold my '79 P200, which was fully tuned and built. Similar to yours, but not quite so far. Mallossi kit, head, reed 30m carb, full port job, gears, clutch, sip JL pipe, clean paint etc. It was my baby I had for over 10 years and done right! Took me a long while to sell, and in the end went for basically the same as a stocker. I would have swapped parts as your plan, had I had them. So Good luck and gospeed!
@scooterraton avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
2 - Many
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3165
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
 
Ossessionato
@scooterraton avatar
2 - Many
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3165
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
UTC quote
I had a highly tuned P200 that I stole that was stupid fast (Rally fly case etc etc.). I was going to ask $3500 but got lucky and had a friend that wanted to trade for a Jet 200 and a little cash.

I love the Jet!
OP
@sdjohn avatar
UTC

Johnny Two Tone
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8545
Location: San Diego, CA
 
Johnny Two Tone
@sdjohn avatar
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8545
Location: San Diego, CA
UTC quote
Yes, originally I was going to do trade/partial trade with my buddy who is selling a tuned PK (hard to find). But it struck me once I rode it that my Primavera is my bike, I built it, I know it inside and out, and even though it is slower I really like it, and I didn't really need to end up with 2 smallframes. So I decided to sell outright. Trades are smart for this type of situation.
@v_oodoo avatar
UTC

Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '87 PK125XL '92 PK50XLS Plurimatic - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9620
Location: seattle/athens
 
Style Maven
@v_oodoo avatar
'74 50s x3 '87 PK125XL '92 PK50XLS Plurimatic - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9620
Location: seattle/athens
UTC quote
Move. Get a bigger garage. Fixed.
OP
@sdjohn avatar
UTC

Johnny Two Tone
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8545
Location: San Diego, CA
 
Johnny Two Tone
@sdjohn avatar
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8545
Location: San Diego, CA
UTC quote
V oodoo wrote:
Move. Get a bigger garage. Fixed.
Ha, I'm lucky to have what I have in socal.
⚠️ Last edited by sdjohn on UTC; edited 1 time
@v_oodoo avatar
UTC

Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '87 PK125XL '92 PK50XLS Plurimatic - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9620
Location: seattle/athens
 
Style Maven
@v_oodoo avatar
'74 50s x3 '87 PK125XL '92 PK50XLS Plurimatic - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9620
Location: seattle/athens
UTC quote
We got lotsa room up here!

Yeah, you are lucky!
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