Wed May 06, 2020 2:45 am

Hooked
2003 PX200
Joined: 28 May 2010
Posts: 400
Location: Perth, Scotland
 
Hooked
2003 PX200
Joined: 28 May 2010
Posts: 400
Location: Perth, Scotland
Wed May 06, 2020 2:45 am linkquote
Is it possible that the compression on the Pinasco 225 long stroke kit is too much for the starter motor??

Has anyone got this kit and their electric start still works?

I've replaced battery, starter motor and starter motor relay and I can't get the electric start to work.

The starter motor does kick out and try to turn flywheel, but just doesn't seem enough "oomph" to get it starting.

Starts with a kick no problem, and I can also feel the extra compression (over standard) when I kick start it.

If I charge the battery up fully there seems to be enough initial power to start it, but after a few starts it's back to normal.

To be fair, with lockdown I've not had it out for any long runs, so difficult to get a full charge into battery through riding.
Wed May 06, 2020 5:07 am

Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1719
Location: UK (South East)
 
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1719
Location: UK (South East)
Wed May 06, 2020 5:07 am linkquote
My Pinasco engine does not have elestart, although it does have a lot of compression. If your battery can spin the motor when it's just been charged to the max, but then isn't up to the job, I would question if the battery has the oomph. You may find that a heavier duty battery exists. In the car and leisure battery world, that would be an AGM, but not sure if you can get them to fit the PX with high output. There is a Motobatt that runs at 11AH, which is better than normal, but whether the PX stator and regulator/rectifier can keep it charged is anyone's guess.
Wed May 06, 2020 7:23 am

Hooked
2003 PX200
Joined: 28 May 2010
Posts: 400
Location: Perth, Scotland
 
Hooked
2003 PX200
Joined: 28 May 2010
Posts: 400
Location: Perth, Scotland
Wed May 06, 2020 7:23 am linkquote
swa45 wrote:
If your battery can spin the motor when it's just been charged to the max, but then isn't up to the job, I would question if the battery has the oomph. You may find that a heavier duty battery exists. In the car and leisure battery world, that would be an AGM, but not sure if you can get them to fit the PX with high output. There is a Motobatt that runs at 11AH, which is better than normal, but whether the PX stator and regulator/rectifier can keep it charged is anyone's guess.
My battery is a Yuasa YB9-B 9Ah.
Wed May 06, 2020 7:27 am

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3005

 
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3005

Wed May 06, 2020 7:27 am linkquote
I would check is the voltage (both before and after you try E starting it) with a multimeter.
Wed May 06, 2020 8:03 am

Hooked
2003 PX200
Joined: 28 May 2010
Posts: 400
Location: Perth, Scotland
 
Hooked
2003 PX200
Joined: 28 May 2010
Posts: 400
Location: Perth, Scotland
Wed May 06, 2020 8:03 am linkquote
whodatschrome wrote:
I would check is the voltage (both before and after you try E starting it) with a multimeter.
Round about 12.7v. Might drop to about 12.3v.

I did notice that the voltage dropped way down when I initiated the electric start, and back up to 12v when I let go, but I'm guessing if the motor is sticking (instead of turning flywheel) then that could cause a big drop.
Wed May 06, 2020 8:16 am

Ossessionato
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 61 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 86 & 96 Elite 80s, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 4022
Location: Oceanside, CA
 
Ossessionato
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 61 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 86 & 96 Elite 80s, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 4022
Location: Oceanside, CA
Wed May 06, 2020 8:16 am linkquote
Can't tell you if it will work with the Pinasco, but I can tell you about batteries. A big voltage drop when engaging the starter is normal. On my Harley voltage drops from 13 plus to 12 and change. Lots of compression there.

If you pull your spark plug and then engage the electric start does it spin everything over? Or does the starter engage and nothing? Or just click click?

An older battery can read good voltage but have no cranking amps behind it. Or a weak battery that isn't charged will have no oomph to do anything. How old is your battery? 3-5 years and then kaput seems the usual for scooter batteries. Glass or lithium seem to be the best now a days. Higher the amp hours the better.

If you cant ride and have a garage, consider getting a battery tender. That way it keeps your battery topped off. It's especially helpful with lead acid batteries. Once the voltage drops too low, the internals change and have a hard time ever getting back to 100%.

The way the starter system works is your switch closes the contacts in a relay which sends power to the starter motor. If any of the switches, wiring, relay, starter contacts or the motor are dirty/ loose/ corroded/ failing that would all make it harder for your starter to spin. Or, a shit load of compression in the cylinder.

Hope that helps you understand how things work. Pull the spark plug and see if your battery can spin the motor.
Wed May 06, 2020 2:39 pm

Hooked
2003 PX200
Joined: 28 May 2010
Posts: 400
Location: Perth, Scotland
 
Hooked
2003 PX200
Joined: 28 May 2010
Posts: 400
Location: Perth, Scotland
Wed May 06, 2020 2:39 pm linkquote
MJRally wrote:
Can't tell you if it will work with the Pinasco, but I can tell you about batteries. A big voltage drop when engaging the starter is normal. On my Harley voltage drops from 13 plus to 12 and change. Lots of compression there.

If you pull your spark plug and then engage the electric start does it spin everything over? Or does the starter engage and nothing? Or just click click?

An older battery can read good voltage but have no cranking amps behind it. Or a weak battery that isn't charged will have no oomph to do anything. How old is your battery? 3-5 years and then kaput seems the usual for scooter batteries. Glass or lithium seem to be the best now a days. Higher the amp hours the better.

If you cant ride and have a garage, consider getting a battery tender. That way it keeps your battery topped off. It's especially helpful with lead acid batteries. Once the voltage drops too low, the internals change and have a hard time ever getting back to 100%.

The way the starter system works is your switch closes the contacts in a relay which sends power to the starter motor. If any of the switches, wiring, relay, starter contacts or the motor are dirty/ loose/ corroded/ failing that would all make it harder for your starter to spin. Or, a shit load of compression in the cylinder.

Hope that helps you understand how things work. Pull the spark plug and see if your battery can spin the motor.
That's a good shout about the spark plug 👍
.. it always seems to be the most obvious that you miss .. D'oh. 😉

The battery is new, but it is a lead acid one. I did here someone on my club forum talking about a lithium battery the other day, but never paid any attention to it. I might look into that a bit further, if it looks like it might provide a solution.

Thanks for the reply 👍
Sun May 24, 2020 8:38 am

Hooked
2003 PX200
Joined: 28 May 2010
Posts: 400
Location: Perth, Scotland
 
Hooked
2003 PX200
Joined: 28 May 2010
Posts: 400
Location: Perth, Scotland
Sun May 24, 2020 8:38 am linkquote
Quick update - replaced the 9Ah Yuasa with a Motobatt 11Ah AGM technology battery (recommended on this forum) and it seems to have solved the issue.
The new battery has enough power to allow me to use the electric start on the Pinasco 225 kit.
Mon May 25, 2020 4:15 am

Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '76 Sprint V. - '86 PX200E (SOLD) - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 407
Location: Belgium
 
Hooked
'63 VBB2T - '76 Sprint V. - '86 PX200E (SOLD) - '18 300 GTS Super Notte
Joined: 26 Apr 2019
Posts: 407
Location: Belgium
Mon May 25, 2020 4:15 am linkquote
cazshie wrote:
Quick update - replaced the 9Ah Yuasa with a Motobatt 11Ah AGM technology battery (recommended on this forum) and it seems to have solved the issue.
The new battery has enough power to allow me to use the electric start on the Pinasco 225 kit.
Hi Cazshie,

I am currently rebuilding my PX200. I'll also have the Pinasco 225.
Do you know your jetting? Care to share it?
Thanks!
⬆️    About 1 year elapsed between posts    ⬇️
Tue May 25, 2021 7:34 pm

Lurker
Vespa PX200
Joined: 05 Apr 2021
Posts: 3
Location: Sydney
 
Lurker
Vespa PX200
Joined: 05 Apr 2021
Posts: 3
Location: Sydney
Tue May 25, 2021 7:34 pm linkquote
cazshie wrote:
Quick update - replaced the 9Ah Yuasa with a Motobatt 11Ah AGM technology battery (recommended on this forum) and it seems to have solved the issue.
The new battery has enough power to allow me to use the electric start on the Pinasco 225 kit.
Hey cazshie, I too have a Pinasco 225 and just fitted the same battery, however it is still not cranking and saw some smoke coming out of wiring.. I also have a Flytech ignition and original starter relay.

Did you replace anything else by any chance?

Thanks!
Tue May 25, 2021 10:55 pm

Hooked
2003 PX200
Joined: 28 May 2010
Posts: 400
Location: Perth, Scotland
 
Hooked
2003 PX200
Joined: 28 May 2010
Posts: 400
Location: Perth, Scotland
Tue May 25, 2021 10:55 pm linkquote
cazshie wrote:
Quick update - replaced the 9Ah Yuasa with a Motobatt 11Ah AGM technology battery (recommended on this forum) and it seems to have solved the issue.
The new battery has enough power to allow me to use the electric start on the Pinasco 225 kit.
I am getting it on the Dyno in a couple of weeks time, so if you ask again in a few weeks I will be able to let you know what jetting setup came off best. I've also fitted a Kytronik Smartbooster since my previous posts.
Tue May 25, 2021 11:32 pm

Hooked
2003 PX200
Joined: 28 May 2010
Posts: 400
Location: Perth, Scotland
 
Hooked
2003 PX200
Joined: 28 May 2010
Posts: 400
Location: Perth, Scotland
Tue May 25, 2021 11:32 pm linkquote
rssluca wrote:
Hey cazshie, I too have a Pinasco 225 and just fitted the same battery, however it is still not cranking and saw some smoke coming out of wiring.. I also have a Flytech ignition and original starter relay.

Did you replace anything else by any chance?
A fair bit has happened since these posts so best if I give a full run down.

As mentioned above, the new battery gave a much better kick, however, the compression in the 225 was still tough and even with the better battery it could be a struggle when engine was cold.

What happened one morning had me in a complete panic!

I used the electric start and the motor started turning but when I let go off start button the starter motor kept turning. Turned off ignition and starter motor still turning. At this point it was a panic to get side panel off and disconnect the battery terminals to shut the electrics down completely.

Long and short of it, applying power to the starter motor as it was sticking caused it to pull an excessive current from the battery, causing the starter relay contacts to overheat and stick and the starter motor to keep cranking, with the potential to damage starter motor/flywheel/electrics etc.

The upshot of it happening to me was that it damaged the starter relay and the spring mechanism in the starter motor that throws the cog out to the flywheel.

I had to replace the starter relay (not expensive) and the starter motor (a bit expensive).

It sounds like your starter motor sticking is causing the same regards excessive current and either over heating the starter motor, starter relay or wiring (I'm sure the circuit for starter motor simply goes from battery to starter relay to starter motor and nowhere else so I don't think it would affect any other electrics).

Bottom line for me is that I never use the electric start first thing, I always kick start, but once the engine has been running I'll use the electric start. For example if the engine cuts out or I just stop for a few minutes (filling up with fuel etc).

I would also check your squish. Pinasco do a larger cylinder base gasket if you need to increase your squish.



Oh, forgot to ask .. did you trim down the fins on the Pinasco cylinder head? The flywheel will rub against the fins if they are not trimmed and this could also cause the flywheel to stick when turning.
Wed May 26, 2021 12:15 am

Lurker
Vespa PX200
Joined: 05 Apr 2021
Posts: 3
Location: Sydney
 
Lurker
Vespa PX200
Joined: 05 Apr 2021
Posts: 3
Location: Sydney
Wed May 26, 2021 12:15 am linkquote
Mate thank you so much for your reply!

I bought the PX already with the works so I assume all mods have been done.

In the end the smoke was a crappy extension wire from the front (I think it is powering the sip speedo) to reach the battery that got hot and melted. I just replaced it with a more appropriate one. Anyways, same too weak when cold, and actually just then it has completely stopped working so I might have actually damaged something (hopefully the relay)..

Was hoping this battery would have helped but I guess I have to give up electric cold start!!

Cheers
Thu May 27, 2021 6:56 pm

Lurker
Vespa PX200
Joined: 05 Apr 2021
Posts: 3
Location: Sydney
 
Lurker
Vespa PX200
Joined: 05 Apr 2021
Posts: 3
Location: Sydney
Thu May 27, 2021 6:56 pm linkquote
@cazshie never mind, the starter worked but was still too weak, even with the engine warm. I was wondering if the problem could be the sip speedo drawing too much power?
Fri May 28, 2021 3:56 am

Hooked
2003 PX200
Joined: 28 May 2010
Posts: 400
Location: Perth, Scotland
 
Hooked
2003 PX200
Joined: 28 May 2010
Posts: 400
Location: Perth, Scotland
Fri May 28, 2021 3:56 am linkquote
rssluca wrote:
@cazshie never mind, the starter worked but was still too weak, even with the engine warm. I was wondering if the problem could be the sip speedo drawing too much power?
Check the battery is fully charged. Give it a good charge with a battery charger if not.

The wiring goes straight from battery to starter (through starter relay next to battery) so I doubt anything is drawing power away.

If you take the plug out can you spin the flywheel freely (when there's no compression) Will the electric start spin the flywheel freely with the plug out?

Like I said, I had to trim a fair bit off the fins on the head to allow the flywheel to spin without catching. If the fins haven't been trimmed enough you might find there is some extra friction between flywheel and head.
Fri May 28, 2021 3:58 am

Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1777
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1777
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Fri May 28, 2021 3:58 am linkquote
rssluca wrote:
@cazshie never mind, the starter worked but was still too weak, even with the engine warm. I was wondering if the problem could be the sip speedo drawing too much power?
A SIP speedometer is a very small power draw.

Have you tried using a set of jumper cables and connecting the ground to the motor and positive to the positive stud on the starter? It's going to crank over just like pressing the starter button so be prepared. A jump pack for a car works great also. This will help split the problem between the wiring or starter motor.
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