Tue May 26, 2020 11:43 am

Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1723
Location: UK (South East)
 
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1723
Location: UK (South East)
Tue May 26, 2020 11:43 am linkquote
140/BE5 is standard spec for a 20/20 on any late PX125 and 150 in the UK, so it's a proven combo, albeit in conjunction with all the emissions controls introduced for Euro 2 and 3. BE5 look leaner at WOT than BE3, so I guess that explains the bigger main suggested by Jack
Tue May 26, 2020 4:26 pm

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
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bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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Tue May 26, 2020 4:26 pm linkquote
Thanks swa, makes sense.

140AC / BE5 /122 - ok now, this I like... Nice 'n peppy, pulls hard up top. A little gurgly in the early throttle, but cleans right up. Temps seem reasonable, but haven't pushed it hard yet. I could live with this combo if the temps stay down on a long run.

After I put some miles on it I'll post some pics of the plug and head, and we'll see what things looks like.

Thank you jack, and others, appreciate the input.
Tue May 26, 2020 4:44 pm

Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
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Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9B1T
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Tue May 26, 2020 4:44 pm linkquote
Just caught this thread late. Sorry to see this happen to yet another one of us. Lots of heartache lately. Hopefully Jack is right and we all learn something from all this damage and money!

BTW, Im guessing but I think your woodruff key sheared probably from the piston slamming to a stop and the momentum built up had the clutch wanting to keep going which took the woodruff key down for the count!
Tue May 26, 2020 7:50 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
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Location: california
 
Ossessionato
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Tue May 26, 2020 7:50 pm linkquote
Jack - curious.
Many of the two stroke tuners I've come across online talk about a pinky nail to thumb nail sized "wash" in front of those ports - as ideal.
When you refer to "black out to the edge" - do you mean in some places - with the wash from the fuel "erasing" clean a small bit of area just in front of the transfer ports? I would think that no wash in front of the ports would = too lean (no fuel to rinse away the deposits).
Tue May 26, 2020 8:59 pm

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
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Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
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Tue May 26, 2020 8:59 pm linkquote
Jack221 wrote:
Check the piston crown is running fully black right to the edge. There will be a bare golden spot in the full black crown near each main transfer, when the WOT jetting is all perfect
To quote myself, earlier in this thread. Yes, wash spot but if I say wash spot, most would have no idea.
When the crown does have the correct burn pattern it is as fast as it can be, while not doing any damage or excessive wear.
Wed May 27, 2020 8:34 am

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Ossessionato
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Wed May 27, 2020 8:34 am linkquote
Quoting yourself is healthy - everyone does it.
Feels pretty good when someone else quotes you as well - though sometimes, just the fact that someone wants to quote you is sufficient.
Quote:
When the crown does have the correct burn pattern it is as fast as it can be, while not doing any damage or excessive wear.
That makes sense - and is a great target for optimizing.
Really helpful actually.
Also - Am kinda psyched to see how SoCal's comes out with JackStack revB for smaller carbs. (also: 🙂 )
I was a Bald John 160AC stack user when I was on the 20/20 carb.
Was reticent to leave it when I went to the 24/24 - just had a comfort level with it.
With that said, had never really run my motor so long WOT as I started doing when I moved up to the 24/24.
Different level of demanding...
The smaller AC in my final stack seemed to be the ticket to getting a WOT robustness.
Very cool.
-CM
Wed May 27, 2020 2:46 pm

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6012
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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Wed May 27, 2020 2:46 pm linkquote
Update ...

140AC / BE5 / 122 - took it out for a speed romp, couple miles WOT, practically dead flat stretch of road. Temps stayed under 250F, but again this is only a few miles of flat road.

Power's good up top, but it sputters rich just about everywhere else, especially 1/4 -3/4 throttle. I'd say the main's about right.



Wed May 27, 2020 4:43 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Ossessionato
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Wed May 27, 2020 4:43 pm linkquote
Wed May 27, 2020 5:58 pm

Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
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Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
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Wed May 27, 2020 5:58 pm linkquote
This is great news, you got the hard one out of the way.
Wed May 27, 2020 6:12 pm

Hooked
Joined: 22 Jul 2018
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Hooked
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Wed May 27, 2020 6:12 pm linkquote
Please wait for Jack but to me if you are under 250 wot then you are still very rich on the main jet. I don't want to step on his toes but till you get to 300 you have a bit to drop.
Wed May 27, 2020 6:42 pm

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
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Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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Wed May 27, 2020 6:42 pm linkquote
Yeah it felt like it still had a little more in it, but I also wasn't pushing it that hard. It's never seized just doing a couple of miles WOT up and down a flat stretch of road. In my experience you really need to do 5 minutes or so sustained WOT to get a good read... uphill under load, even better.
Wed May 27, 2020 7:57 pm

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
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Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
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Wed May 27, 2020 7:57 pm linkquote
A couple of miles at WOT is a good start. If you never saw over 250F and the timing is at 20 degrees, then the main jet is still too rich. Seeing the plug from the WOT run would confirm either way. Even if the 122 was perfect a few careful runs on 120 or 118 would confirm which way to go too.

What slide is in the carb? Filter or vortex or nothing? How big is the squish?

Probably starting to feel quicker than before already.
Wed May 27, 2020 8:47 pm

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
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bodgemaster
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Wed May 27, 2020 8:47 pm linkquote
It's got a bellmouth. Don't remember what the slide is, never messed with it. Squish is huge on the Pinasco kit, probably >2.5.

Top of the throttle feels good with these jets, but the acceleration is a little choppy. This set up is not bad, but tbh, it pulled more evenly with the other jetting.

Here's the plug. Yep, looks rich. I'll take another pic in the morning.



Wed May 27, 2020 9:43 pm

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
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Jet Eye Master
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Wed May 27, 2020 9:43 pm linkquote
Looking at that plug it will take the 118 main. Not at full power yet. Keep listening for detonation. With the stock slide, as the main jet reduces the 1/2 throttle should get smoother too.
Wed May 27, 2020 9:48 pm

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 9180
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
 
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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Wed May 27, 2020 9:48 pm linkquote
i'd say suck up the squish a little but leave the jetting and timing the same and give it a run.

but in my mind, better to be rich than poor. cuz you gonna be poor when you blow it up.

-g
Thu May 28, 2020 12:14 am

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6012
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bodgemaster
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Thu May 28, 2020 12:14 am linkquote
Not so easy to correct the squish on this nicasil kit, but open to ideas.

With a 57mm crank, piston sits ~ 1.5mm below the deck. There's a groove on top of the cylinder that the head fits in and another 1mm of squish inside the head. So lots of machining needed. Easier with a 60 mm crank.
Thu May 28, 2020 9:15 am

Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
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Ossessionato
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Thu May 28, 2020 9:15 am linkquote
Jack221 wrote:
Looking at that plug it will take the 118 main. Not at full power yet. Keep listening for detonation. With the stock slide, as the main jet reduces the 1/2 throttle should get smoother too.
Would it not be a good idea to get best results listening for detonation on a steep grade where the motor would be working hardest and looking for best underload performance? Then eventually on the everyday ride you know it is safe under normal conditions?
Thu May 28, 2020 3:00 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8089
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Thu May 28, 2020 3:00 pm linkquote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Not so easy to correct the squish on this nicasil kit, but open to ideas.

With a 57mm crank, piston sits ~ 1.5mm below the deck. There's a groove on top of the cylinder that the head fits in and another 1mm of squish inside the head. So lots of machining needed. Easier with a 60 mm crank.
If you did want to reduce the squish, machining the head might be an easier option than the cylinder? You'd cut around the outside so that the squish area & combustion chamber drops down further.
Thu May 28, 2020 4:00 pm

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
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bodgemaster
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Thu May 28, 2020 4:00 pm linkquote
Ginch: That's an option, but the piston sits 1.5mm below the deck at TDC and the head has a sealing lip, so it will take a fair amount of milling to get the squish below 1.5mm with a 57mm crank without altering the entire design.







Last edited by SoCalGuy on Fri May 29, 2020 5:22 am; edited 2 times in total
Thu May 28, 2020 4:03 pm

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6012
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bodgemaster
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Thu May 28, 2020 4:03 pm linkquote
Cylinder



Thu May 28, 2020 6:56 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Thu May 28, 2020 6:56 pm linkquote
Yep. Not saying it's easy, but easier than machining the cylinder.

When the sealing ring hits the bottom, is there a gap where the cylinder studs go through?
When I had a Pinasco 177 I bought an MMW (I think?) head that was based on a Malossi casting that had that work done to it already. It worked.
Fri May 29, 2020 5:01 am

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6012
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
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Fri May 29, 2020 5:01 am linkquote
Yes, there's a gap.

Would you mind posting up a pic of that MMW head? Charlieman and I talked about this yesterday and he graciously did some calcs and made a beautiful mock up for machining the head... Would be curious to see how it compares to the MMW.



Fri May 29, 2020 5:49 am

Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1781
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Molto Verboso
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Fri May 29, 2020 5:55 am

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
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Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
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Fri May 29, 2020 5:55 am linkquote
Was this kit made for a 60mm crank? Stopping 1.5mm short of the top seems quite a coincidence.
Fri May 29, 2020 7:23 am

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Ossessionato
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Fri May 29, 2020 7:23 am linkquote
The issue is - the piston is 1.5 below the flat that the head sits and seals on.
So then you have to add any squish that is in the head design as well.
In this case - could be as much as 2.5mm.
We need to see the actual head when it's off to confirm - we used a spare pinasco head to take some initial measures.
But bottom line - even if head was milled to 0, with the squish band starting at the head sealing flat, there would still be 1.5mm of squish.
So that newer head Christopher posted wouldn't solve that - tho it would give him a fancier squish band design.

Pic I drew attempts to fix this - see left side of sketch.
Right side shows current - with the green shaded area what would be taken away.
This would allow a small bit of the cylinder head to protrude lower than the sealing lip (about .5mm) to achieve a 1mm squish.
Do you guys think this would work?

Jack's question. 60mm crank would basically gives 0 deck - so they must have had that in mind. SoCal managed to get this cylinder overnight while on a road trip, and install it in a hotel parking lot the next morning so they could keep on keeping on - as I understand it... So there wasn't a lot of haggling about 57 and 60 with local supplier as it was a miracle cure at the time.

🙂
-CM
Fri May 29, 2020 7:42 am

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
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Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
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Fri May 29, 2020 7:42 am linkquote
Jack: They claim 57mm or 60mm stroke. They supply a 1.5mm spacer for 60mm cranks.
Fri May 29, 2020 10:38 am

Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1781
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
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Fri May 29, 2020 10:38 am linkquote
Could You use a BGM Head?
How about a BGM head and cut a metal gasket to fit the between the cylinder and head? This would give you less than a zero deck, that is what I was thinking about for my DR setup to increase timing and reduce squish.

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/cylinder-head-bgm-pro-cnc-made-in-germany-177/187-cc-vespa-px125-px150-cosa125-cosa150-gtr125-ts125-sprint-veloce-vlb1t-0150001-bgm1770h?number=BGM1770H
Fri May 29, 2020 12:04 pm

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
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Jet Eye Master
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Fri May 29, 2020 12:04 pm linkquote
Would go a lot better with a 60 crank. If it ever breaks thats the way to go.

It has higher timing that will help. When the carb is done, if it's not quick enough, or runs too cold, then might be worth doing the squish.
Fri May 29, 2020 8:08 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8089
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8089
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri May 29, 2020 8:08 pm linkquote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Yes, there's a gap.

Would you mind posting up a pic of that MMW head? Charlieman and I talked about this yesterday and he graciously did some calcs and made a beautiful mock up for machining the head... Would be curious to see how it compares to the MMW.
Sorry didn't see your reply until just now. This is the head here.
Thinking about it, you may need a little work on the combustion chamber to lower the compression if you decide to go this route. Although, if it's the same head they use for the 60 stroke version, maybe not...

Just found they still make it - https://www.sip-scootershop.com/EN/Products/cylinder+head+malossi+mk+iii+_38348410







Fri May 29, 2020 10:29 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
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Ossessionato
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Fri May 29, 2020 10:29 pm linkquote
Ginch - the king of finding a needle in a haystack.

Wait! Just zoomed in - they stole my design!

🙂



Fri May 29, 2020 10:31 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8089
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8089
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri May 29, 2020 10:31 pm linkquote
How rude! And the sneaks did it years before - just to cover their tracks!!
Fri May 29, 2020 10:41 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
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Ossessionato
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Fri May 29, 2020 10:41 pm linkquote
Yeah - u gotta watch out for the Europeans.
Sat May 30, 2020 4:21 am

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6012
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
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Sat May 30, 2020 4:21 am linkquote
Thx Ginch.
Christopher_55934 wrote:
How about a BGM head and cut a metal gasket to fit the between the cylinder and head? This would give you less than a zero deck, that is what I was thinking about for my DR setup to increase timing and reduce squish.

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/cylinder-head-bgm-pro-cnc-made-in-germany-177/187-cc-vespa-px125-px150-cosa125-cosa150-gtr125-ts125-sprint-veloce-vlb1t-0150001-bgm1770h?number=BGM1770H
Now this is interesting...

"... The combustion chamber is designed to be immersed in the cylinder ... So even 0.8mm are possible without any problems, the compression is still a very healthy 10,7:1."

Sounds like it drops into the bore. That would solve the issue right there.

Anybody have any experience with this head? Nice find, Christopher.
Sat May 30, 2020 5:44 am

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Ossessionato
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Sat May 30, 2020 5:44 am linkquote
Looks to me like the Malossi one Ginch posted does the same?
Give's you two good plug and pray options?
🙂

*Edit: think that the BGM one would then move your sealing surface to the top of the cylinder - rather than on the inverted ring - not that that would make it unviable - just a bit different solution if I am understanding them both
Sat May 30, 2020 11:23 am

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6012
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
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Location: So Cal
Sat May 30, 2020 11:23 am linkquote
Sorry greasy, couldn't resist...

Dropped a 120 main in there. Unfortunately the jet's either mislabeled or misdrilled. Felt like maybe a 140. Scoot ran like it was underwater. Uber rich, coughing, 5mph slower, temps way down. Obviously bad jet. So...

On to 118. Whoa! Hello. This may be the one. Nice and spunky off the line and through the gears, top end roars. Temps still well under 300 on a two mile speed run. Gonna leave this one in until I pull the head.

Thx again all.
Sat May 30, 2020 2:40 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8089
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8089
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sat May 30, 2020 2:40 pm linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
Looks to me like the Malossi one Ginch posted does the same?
Give's you two good plug and pray options?
🙂

*Edit: think that the BGM one would then move your sealing surface to the top of the cylinder - rather than on the inverted ring - not that that would make it unviable - just a bit different solution if I am understanding them both
Yes CM that's what Christopher says when he first mentioned the idea but I missed it too initially. So you need to make packers to fill the step down, you wouldn't want to leave it empty. Which I think leaves the Pinasco head a nose in front (if you didn't want to invest in the MMW.
I'd use a belt sander (the bench type) to lower that protruding ring, with the 1.75mm gap that's all you should need to touch I think.
Sat May 30, 2020 6:39 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Ossessionato
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Sat May 30, 2020 6:39 pm linkquote
Like 99.9% of the stuff I come up with - I'm just understanding what someone else already proposed.
Mind you - the other .01% is gold!
🙂

Christopher - good find.
SoCal - since we are spending your money - I say modify existing head!
Though must admit - combustion chamber shape on the one Ginch posted is kinda nice...

Meanwhile JSrevB(fsc) - sounds like its humming.
Takes a village, people.
-CM
Sun May 31, 2020 1:24 pm

Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
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Ossessionato
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Sun May 31, 2020 1:24 pm linkquote
Hey Mike, if you want me to, I can send you a BGM head to test with. It has some detonation marks, but it would definitely let you test out a recessed head.
Sun May 31, 2020 2:20 pm

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
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bodgemaster
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Sun May 31, 2020 2:20 pm linkquote
That's mighty generous of you Chandler. Sure, send it over. I'll absolutely give it a try and see how it goes. Thanks!
Sun May 31, 2020 6:05 pm

Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1781
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
 
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1781
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sun May 31, 2020 6:05 pm linkquote
SoCalGuy wrote:
That's mighty generous of you Chandler. Sure, send it over. I'll absolutely give it a try and see how it goes. Thanks!
I

Now you have to post pictures for the rest of us. Also, make sure you have material to make a gasket out of. I think you'll want something to take up that space in the top where the old cylinder head fit. BGM makes head gaskets of various thickness to adjust squish also.
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