Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:43 am

Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
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Ossessionato
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Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:43 am linkquote
After speaking with a few here on the subject of carb setup and breaking in a new motor,I thought it a good idea to be specific with the motor and setup.
- 20/20 Spaco 20d carb, and pulled the two , I think youíd refer to them as jets. The big one up top says 160 , the main body has a E3 and on the deep end of the main body the main jet says 118. The second jet which I think is the pilot jet says 50-120.
I searched a bit to find a break down of these carb for proper lingual but wasnít very successful , so my apologies.

- I also included a pic of the filter on the carb

- I have the BGM exhaust

-DR 180 top end and I think the only upgrade on motor is the Rich Nice crank which Iím pretty sure, anything but the top end is the pertinent information looked at.

-Ducati ignition and Pinasco Regulator.

-Looking back on old messages from the builder, the motor is timed at 20-21 btdc, retarded it a bit more than stock to keep motor running cooler.


I'm not sure why the carb was setup up the way it is other than the 118 is recommended for breakin and that the motor was benchtested to his soecifications which I trust, but I would like to get an understanding without having to be an annoyance to the builder as I know he is extremely busy.

So to start with could you's please explain what these jets represent , including the air corrector etc , kind of in laymans terms would help alot. I do know from experience the piolt jet is for low speed and main jet is for higher throttle opening ie hiway speeds.
P.S. I don't think I have enough time in my lifetime to both read and understand CM's highly technical Sidecar thread .
Thanks for the input
Lynn






blue fiber on filter







Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:01 pm

Hooked
2005 Stella 2T
Joined: 14 Jun 2020
Posts: 127
Location: MA
 
Hooked
2005 Stella 2T
Joined: 14 Jun 2020
Posts: 127
Location: MA
Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:01 pm linkquote
The larger of the 2 jets consisting of 3 pieces is usually called the main stack. The 3 pieces from top to bottom are (1) the air correction (or just air) tube, (2) the emulsifier or mixing or atomizer tube, and (3) the main jet.

The smaller of the 2 jets consisting of one piece is the idle or pilot jet.

The idle jet controls fuel flow at idle and low rpm. The lower number corresponds to fuel and the higher number corresponds to air. Divide the higher number by the lower number to get a relative measure of richness (lower is richer).

The main stack controls fuel flow at mid to wide open throttle. The air tube meters air, the main jet meters fuel and the mixing tube combines them. The air tube and the main jet are pretty straightforward--a bigger number on the air tube means more air (leaner) and a bigger number on the main jet means more fuel (richer). To understand the mixing tube, you have to understand that the main stack sits in a well of fuel and the level of fuel in the well goes down as the throttle is opened up. The various mixing tubes have different hole patterns at different heights that feed air into the fuel as they are uncovered by the dropping fuel level in the well.

Your mixing tube is probably a BE-3, not an E-3. If that is correct, your jetting is pretty typical for your application.

I am attaching some pictures that help explain the mixing tube.





Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:56 pm

Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
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Ossessionato
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Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:56 pm linkquote
Thanks kowalski , really well presented, Iíll have to read it a few times to really take it in and understand front to back but itís some very thorough information.
The Mixing tube does that indeed only say E3 but hard to tell there may be a B in front.



Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:27 pm

Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
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Ossessionato
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Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:27 pm linkquote
Iím pretty sure the pilot let is determined by the air/fuel mixture screw but what about the main stack , what determines the size of the 3 pieces in the main stack (1) the air correction , (2) the atomizer tube, and (3) the main jet?
Well the main jet Iím sure is just a matter of doing a plug chop and seeing what the spark plug looks like , or does (1) and (2) play a part as well ?

Also I know my air cleaner is not the best and also has to be addressed and probably has an effect on the mix?
Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:37 am

Hooked
2005 Stella 2T
Joined: 14 Jun 2020
Posts: 127
Location: MA
 
Hooked
2005 Stella 2T
Joined: 14 Jun 2020
Posts: 127
Location: MA
Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:37 am linkquote
That is a BE-3 mixing tube. You can tell because it has 4 holes in the midrange section (more air/leaner mix) where the E-3 only has 2 (less air/richer mix).

The mixture screw is used to fine tune the idle jet. One way to tell if you have the right idle jet is if the mixture screw is about 2 1/2 turns out when properly adjusted.

As far as selecting the components for the main stack, I am still figuring that out myself. They are all interrelated and there is some overlap with the idle jet to consider too. The biggest enigma is how the air tube and the mixing tube interrelate. It seems to me that the air tube isn't that critical because the air still has to pass through the mixing tube. Nonetheless, people put a lot of emphasis on air tube size, so I'm probably missing something. In any event, as I said before, your 160/BE-3/118 is pretty typical for a 177 cylinder kit. Beyond that, I will have to defer to Jack and the other jetting gurus here.

You are right that yours is not the best air filter. The easiest thing to do is replace it with a Piaggio air filter that comes with holes in the "heart section" already drilled. That is supposed to flow more air and may require a larger main jet to compensate.
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:36 am

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x 2), 74 Primavera (x 2), 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5925
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x 2), 74 Primavera (x 2), 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5925
Location: So Cal
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:36 am linkquote
Lynn, its good to get smart about how SI carbs work and how to fine tune the jetting.

But this is a Gick-built engine, right?

Jon knows his stuff. He bench tested it and supplied you with jets suited to the build.

If thereís a specific running issue youíre having, Iíd give him a shout. Iím sure heíd be happy to help you sort it out.
Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:13 am

Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
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Ossessionato
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Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:13 am linkquote
Kowalski wrote:
That is a BE-3 mixing tube. You can tell because it has 4 holes in the midrange section (more air/leaner mix) where the E-3 only has 2 (less air/richer mix).

The mixture screw is used to fine tune the idle jet. One way to tell if you have the right idle jet is if the mixture screw is about 2 1/2 turns out when properly adjusted.

As far as selecting the components for the main stack, I am still figuring that out myself. They are all interrelated and there is some overlap with the idle jet to consider too. The biggest enigma is how the air tube and the mixing tube interrelate. It seems to me that the air tube isn't that critical because the air still has to pass through the mixing tube. Nonetheless, people put a lot of emphasis on air tube size, so I'm probably missing something. In any event, as I said before, your 160/BE-3/118 is pretty typical for a 177 cylinder kit. Beyond that, I will have to defer to Jack and the other jetting gurus here.

You are right that yours is not the best air filter. The easiest thing to do is replace it with a Piaggio air filter that comes with holes in the "heart section" already drilled. That is supposed to flow more air and may require a larger main jet to compensate.
Thankyou for the insight, I did kind of figure the pilot jet is directly related to the mixture screw, not enough room to adjust with the mixture screw and a larger pilot jet is needed, thats kind of the only technology that works on all makes of carbed bikes, I have done my own jetting on Harley's kawasaki's and british bikes. Its this main stack that has me intrigued , I will have to do more research , gotta be something out there.
Yes I agree on the air cleaner, I will be leaving it off the carb.
Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:15 am

Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
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Ossessionato
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Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:15 am linkquote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Lynn, its good to get smart about how SI carbs work and how to fine tune the jetting.

But this is a Gick-built engine, right?

Jon knows his stuff. He bench tested it and supplied you with jets suited to the build.

If thereís a specific running issue youíre having, Iíd give him a shout. Iím sure heíd be happy to help you sort it out.
Yes it was built by Gick, but that was back in 2013 so time to pull the rip cord , he has other things to do. Its just like the welding and the painting, had to learn it to understand before I could do it myself, thats just me.
Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:03 am

Ossessionato
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Ossessionato
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Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:03 am linkquote
During my research today I came across this video on youtube.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06m3450pTps&list=PL7SWwzc0TBDYXhXvfkw6UQSaoR5m9l5hN&index=55&t=0s
Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:30 pm

Ossessionato
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Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:11 am

Ossessionato
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Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:11 am linkquote
Question: is there going to be much noticeable difference between a 55/120 and a 50/120 idle jet? At what number is there a big noticeable differnce?
Thanks
Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:05 pm

Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
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Ossessionato
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Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:05 pm linkquote
I got around to adjusting my shifter cables today, used Voodoos bundgie cable and vise grip method. Shifts much better.
I also pulled the crappy blue mesh air filter out of the carb, amazing improvement, actually hit 50 mph and seemed to want to keep going but Iím respecting the breakin period. Much easier to keep it off wot now.
Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:55 am

Hooked
1957 VN2, 1970 180 Rally, 1980 P150X and P200E
Joined: 22 May 2017
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Location: George, South Africa
 
Hooked
1957 VN2, 1970 180 Rally, 1980 P150X and P200E
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Location: George, South Africa
Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:55 am linkquote
While you are at it, drill out the section in the air filter directly above the jets. Use a 5mm and 8mm drill. That also makes a big improvement.
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:59 am

Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
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Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:59 am linkquote
danie wrote:
While you are at it, drill out the section in the air filter directly above the jets. Use a 5mm and 8mm drill. That also makes a big improvement.
I had a blue fiber air filter in there , I removed the air filter completely. I noticed an improvement immediately.
Sat May 29, 2021 4:01 pm

Ossessionato
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 2165
Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
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Sat May 29, 2021 4:01 pm linkquote
Lynnb wrote:
I had a blue fiber air filter in there , I removed the air filter completely. I noticed an improvement immediately.
Hey Lynn,

Are you still running without an air filter?

I ask because we're working on getting rid of the low down and sometimes mid-stutter on our 2 port 177 kits. We both have the blue filters and hearts drilled. Hmmm...
Sat May 29, 2021 5:05 pm

Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
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Sat May 29, 2021 5:05 pm linkquote
qascooter wrote:
Hey Lynn,

Are you still running without an air filter?

I ask because we're working on getting rid of the low down and sometimes mid-stutter on our 2 port 177 kits. We both have the blue filters and hearts drilled. Hmmm...
I havenít ran with a filter since it was advised against as long as I have the bellow on. I am actually just reading up on drilling the carb down where the mainjet feeds from. Scott to tell you the truth I probably wouldnít know a low speed stutter if I had one. I do know though that changing to a 140/Be3/18 really woke up the lower gears.
Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:51 am

Ossessionato
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Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:51 am linkquote
Ok I done got it done 500 mile break in completed.

At the moment I have the 140/BE5/118 and 50-120 and no air filter.
What Iím finding is if I cruise at 40mph it feels like shit , if I go upto about 42-43mph it feels a lot better and this is with steady speed. Going from 40-50 -60 feels amazing , no vibration at my feet at all and although twisting throttle at 42 sends you back in your seat it is taking time to wind out upto about 60mph which I expected with the 118 mj.
I havenít done any plug chops yet , or even pulled the plug since the first time I did a plug chop at 50 miles, it ran so no need to pull it.

Today when I got got I did hear a bit of a chinging noise coming from motor but it seemed to go away.



Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:09 pm

Hooked
1959 Allstate w P125x Engine
Joined: 29 Nov 2020
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Location: Los Angeles
 
Hooked
1959 Allstate w P125x Engine
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Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:09 pm linkquote
qascooter wrote:
Hey Lynn,

Are you still running without an air filter?

I ask because we're working on getting rid of the low down and sometimes mid-stutter on our 2 port 177 kits. We both have the blue filters and hearts drilled. Hmmm...
I tried it. Tried every filter/carb permutation. Drilled, not drilled, no filter, no cover, flat slide, smaller carb...
Ended up with the original drilled filter.
Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:20 pm

Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3187
Location: Staten Island, NY
 
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 3187
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:20 pm linkquote
qascooter wrote:
Hey Lynn,

Are you still running without an air filter?

I ask because we're working on getting rid of the low down and sometimes mid-stutter on our 2 port 177 kits. We both have the blue filters and hearts drilled. Hmmm...
What's your squish on those two?

I ask because my low end stutter disappeared when i skimmed the head and got my squish tight. 1.25-35mm had low end stutter no matter what i did. 0.8mm squish and pretty much all jetting and atomizers it's clean throughout. Not sure what that means but suspecting it's something related.
Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:49 pm

Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
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Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:49 pm linkquote
Ok got around to pulling the plug and figured Iíd pull the shroud as well. Is it normal for the head to be leaking above exhaust port after 500 miles?






No leakage here


Or here


Kinda figured plug would look like this after running rich and just pulling out in the shop



Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:06 pm

Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
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VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
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Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:06 pm linkquote
Did you give the head a few passes over some sand paper on glass? Might help fix that air leak at the head. Could also just be from head nuts needing tightening. If new studs and nuts they stretch a bit after a few miles and always good to recheck and torque them down again after the first few weeks.
Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:16 pm

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Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:16 pm linkquote
swiss1939 wrote:
Did you give the head a few passes over some sand paper on glass? Might help fix that air leak at the head. Could also just be from head nuts needing tightening. If new studs and nuts they stretch a bit after a few miles and always good to recheck and torque them down again after the first few weeks.
Oh ok , I didnít run the head over glass , I received the motor assembled as a complete build accept for clutch and carb needed to be attached. So that would be considered an air leak, learned something new.
Do you know the torque sequence by chance and the torque?
Can I pull the head , like is it metal to metal or is there a gasket ?
Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:38 pm

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x 2), 74 Primavera (x 2), 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
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Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
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Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:38 pm linkquote
Are you sure itís leaking? Donít know how Gick assembled the head here, but I use grease, and a little always melts off around the perimeter during run in. Iíd just check the torque on the head nuts and keep an eye on it.
Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:51 pm

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1963 VBB2T
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Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:51 pm linkquote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Are you sure itís leaking? Donít know how Gick assembled the head here, but I use grease, and a little always melts off around the perimeter during run in. Iíd just check the torque on the head nuts and keep an eye on it.
What should I torque too and is it a criss cross pattern?
Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:55 pm

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x 2), 74 Primavera (x 2), 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5925
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
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Location: So Cal
Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:55 pm linkquote
10-12 ft-lb should do it. Yes, cross tighten.
Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:57 pm

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Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:57 pm linkquote
SoCalGuy wrote:
10-12 ft-lb should do it. Yes, cross tighten.
Perfect thankyou.
Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:12 pm

Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
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Location: California
 
Molto Verboso
Vespa
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Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:12 pm linkquote
check out this video

Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:20 pm

Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
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Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:20 pm linkquote
I checked the torque on the head, I used my inch pound torque wrench set to 131 inches , all clicked ok so doesnít look like it needed a retorque
Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:28 pm

Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
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Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:28 pm linkquote
hibbert wrote:
check out this video

Thanks hibert Iíll take a look.

Looking back on my original parts invoice I donít see a separate head , I wonder if the Dr180 comes with a head as a kit?
Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:30 pm

Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
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Location: Staten Island, NY
 
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VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
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Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:30 pm linkquote
Yeah i doubt it's any major issue beyond possibly nuts that need a little tightening as I'm sure gick already skimmed the head surface flat. I thought you built the engine and was just double checking that you did that.
Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:40 pm

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1963 VBB2T
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Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:40 pm linkquote
swiss1939 wrote:
Yeah i doubt it's any major issue beyond possibly nuts that need a little tightening as I'm sure gick already skimmed the head surface flat. I thought you built the engine and was just double checking that you did that.
No Swiss I had GickSpeed build this engine complete back in 2012 and just started it last year. Can you torque more than recommended torque spec?
Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:49 am

Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
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Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:49 am linkquote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Are you sure itís leaking? Donít know how Gick assembled the head here, but I use grease, and a little always melts off around the perimeter during run in. Iíd just check the torque on the head nuts and keep an eye on it.
SoCal do you simply use an ordinary grease in the head surface , just a lite smear ? I think Iím going to pull the head after work and run the surface across some 180 on a glass sheet to get some cross hatch on it and reassemble and torque, I donít feel comfortable seeing the head leak like that and the retorque didnít change anything, sorry stubborn that way, donít like the idea of a new leaky engine.
Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:41 am

Ossessionato
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
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Location: Florence, OR
 
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79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
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Location: Florence, OR
Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:41 am linkquote
swiss1939 wrote:
What's your squish on those two?

I ask because my low end stutter disappeared when i skimmed the head and got my squish tight. 1.25-35mm had low end stutter no matter what i did. 0.8mm squish and pretty much all jetting and atomizers it's clean throughout. Not sure what that means but suspecting it's something related.
Thanks for the info Swiss - I have no idea the squish. It's the Pinasco 2-port 177 kit. I've been assuming they dialed that in before selling the kit. Maybe I should rethink that assumption and Get the solder out and pull the head....
Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:44 am

Ossessionato
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
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Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:44 am linkquote
Ray8 wrote:
I tried it. Tried every filter/carb permutation. Drilled, not drilled, no filter, no cover, flat slide, smaller carb...
Ended up with the original drilled filter.
Thanks Ray8 - That's what I'll stick with!
Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:56 am

Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
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Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:56 am linkquote
I assume *nothing* about measurements when building motors, squish and timing least of all. Too many variations of parts, designs, and workmanship for that.

I even re-check everything on my own previously Known Good work when I re-assemble.

Also, the DR normally is sold as a complete kit, cylinder, head, piston, rings. The only thing that's not included is quality.
Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:26 am

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Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:26 am linkquote
Is there a way to find squish without removing the head a bunch of times and taping solder across the piston?
Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:57 am

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:57 am linkquote
qascooter wrote:
Is there a way to find squish without removing the head a bunch of times and taping solder across the piston?
I've had luck with:
- remove spark plug
- trim solder with razor blade so I get a blunt end without any pre "squish"
- Slide it in until I feel it hit the wall of the cylinder
- Turn flywheel until it squishes - while keeping pressure on the solder against that wall.

*The way I can tell if I got a true measure: if you look extra close at the solder after squish - it will have a bulbous end where the very tip was not squished as much because it was in the cap between the piston and cylinder.

This means it was fully up against the edge.
Be careful to measure the solder just inside that bulbous tip - or you will be measuring the wrong area.
Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:10 am

Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
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Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:10 am linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
I've had luck with:
- remove spark plug
- trim solder with razor blade so I get a blunt end without any pre "squish"
- Slide it in until I feel it hit the wall of the cylinder
- Turn flywheel until it squishes - while keeping pressure on the solder against that wall.

*The way I can tell if I got a true measure: if you look extra close at the solder after squish - it will have a bulbous end where the very tip was not squished as much because it was in the cap between the piston and cylinder.

This means it was fully up against the edge.
Be careful to measure the solder just inside that bulbous tip - or you will be measuring the wrong area.
Charlie this is new to me and required to start tuning my carb. Good explanation on procedure , the solder , would it be the thin solder like for soldering electronics or the thicker solder like for soldering plumbing copper pipes?
Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:31 am

Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
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Posts: 3187
Location: Staten Island, NY
 
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Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:31 am linkquote
Whatever solder you can find that's thicker than the average squish. Which is probably something like 1.3-1.5mm. I've just used whatever i can find at home Depot that's not the thinnest solder for micro electronics.
Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:38 am

Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2511

 
Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2511

Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:38 am linkquote
swiss1939 wrote:
Whatever solder you can find that's thicker than the average squish is 1.3-1.5mm
Thanks Swiss I donít know what to expect when I shove a length of solder in the spark plug hole so didnít want to shove a size in there that is too large in diameter and doesnít give accurate squish reading.
Might I ask what squish size information actually helps determine in tuning a carb? Like is there some special formula that it drops into or something?
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