Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:46 am

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Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:46 am linkquote
rowdyc wrote:
May need that ac-dc converter to make it work. Its also stops the speedo from turning off and on when stopping at a light because of the AC current and a low rev.

In my opinion, anyone running a SIP speedo without a batter should get the KOSO AC/DC converter for consistent power. AC will work but not as good as DC power. I've had two one without and one with the KOSO regulator and the later is less of a headache when installed properly.
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/voltage-regulator-koso_KOBL000010
Ok cool, I'll order one of those with my next order tomorrow. Thanks!
Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:47 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
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Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:47 am linkquote
If you have no kill switch but it's wired on the motor side, then look for a unconnected ground wire. If the harness is not grounded, then most things won't work, which sounds like your situation.

Can you share a copy of your wiring diagram? and are you 100% confident that it's accurate? That'll help suggest next steps for troubleshooting.
Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:26 am

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Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:26 am linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
If you have no kill switch but it's wired on the motor side, then look for a unconnected ground wire. If the harness is not grounded, then most things won't work, which sounds like your situation.

Can you share a copy of your wiring diagram? and are you 100% confident that it's accurate? That'll help suggest next steps for troubleshooting.


86135257+sip-vape+largeframe,+mit+Blinker+122019.pdf
 Description:
here's the wiring diagram.

Download
 Filename:  86135257+sip-vape+largeframe,+mit+Blinker+122019.pdf
 Filesize:  213.76 KB

Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:45 am

Lucky
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Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:45 am linkquote
The first thing I'd confirm is that the ground at #1 (ground wire off the headlight) has a good path to ground.

There is also a ground on the switch panel via the screw that holds it into the headset, so make sure that screw isn't failing to ground due to paint.

Next up, wire in a 12v battery at the output from the regulator/rectifier and the negative to ground so you can 1) test things without the motor running; and 2) remove the R/R and all upstream components from the equation. Isolating the testing will simplify things and not having the motor running will allow you to slow down and think more clearly while you work.

I notice that in the drawing, the horn/turn signal/brake switch wire and the AC in from the stator are both blue. Are they different enough there's no chance you could have swapped them?

These are just a couple things to get you started. Your best bet at this point is probably to go through with a multimeter and validate both continuity and voltage (via the battery) at each point where you expect it, starting with the grounds.
Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:06 pm

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Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:06 pm linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
The first thing I'd confirm is that the ground at #1 (ground wire off the headlight) has a good path to ground.

There is also a ground on the switch panel via the screw that holds it into the headset, so make sure that screw isn't failing to ground due to paint.

Next up, wire in a 12v battery at the output from the regulator/rectifier and the negative to ground so you can 1) test things without the motor running; and 2) remove the R/R and all upstream components from the equation. Isolating the testing will simplify things and not having the motor running will allow you to slow down and think more clearly while you work.

I notice that in the drawing, the horn/turn signal/brake switch wire and the AC in from the stator are both blue. Are they different enough there's no chance you could have swapped them?

These are just a couple things to get you started. Your best bet at this point is probably to go through with a multimeter and validate both continuity and voltage (via the battery) at each point where you expect it, starting with the grounds.
Gonna find a YouTube video that explains it through sight. Thanks!
Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:31 am

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Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:31 am linkquote
Tinkering a little bit this morning. Double checked the ground continuity and have it through all grounds to the engine. Ie if I touch one probe to the ground wire and one to the engine I get beeps on all. Screw at the switch, ground at the handle bar (double black wire from the harness), ground on the headlight bulb holder jammer, ground at the regulator, CDI and tail light. All kosher.

No continuity on the green kill wire. I suppose I could just run a new one from the switch to the CDI? Not sure why that one is bunk though.
Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:35 am

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
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Lucky
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Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:35 am linkquote
You should only have continuity on the kill wire if the kill switch is engaged. It works by shorting the spark to ground so the plug quits firing.

Now that all your grounds are Known Good, you can start working through the positive side of the harness. First things first, check if the bad circuits are shorting to ground. You can do that by removing the bulbs from the lights, then checking the positive side for ground continuity. There shouldn't be any. If there is, then the current will be choosing that path rather than through the bulbs.

Also, can you confirm that you're running a regulated 12v system and not the "Balanced AC" system that I think would have come on the bike?
Sun Oct 03, 2021 6:05 am

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Sun Oct 03, 2021 6:05 am linkquote
Yes 12v AC. Vape ignition. I'll check the bulb part now.

First test was the tail light since I was back there. Red wire that goes to the top bulb on the GS light, yellow wire on the bottom running light. Touching the probes to the yellow and ground gets nothing. Red and ground beeps. Ut oh!

Gonna go through the rest of the spots real quick just to make sure that's the only spot

Edit: head light is kosher
Sun Oct 03, 2021 6:17 am

Molto Verboso
'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '66 Allstate SF, '65 VBB, '66 180SS
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Sun Oct 03, 2021 6:17 am linkquote
" You can do that by removing the bulbs from the lights, then checking the positive side for ground continuity. There shouldn't be any. If there is, then the current will be choosing that path rather than through the bulbs."

Won't it still ground through the coil ? Disconnect lighting wire at junction box.
Sun Oct 03, 2021 6:32 am

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Sun Oct 03, 2021 6:32 am linkquote
Ray8 wrote:
Touch the inside of the pilot socket and the M screw with your multimeter probes and see if there's continuity.
No continuity
Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:22 am

Lucky
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Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:22 am linkquote
FridayMatinee wrote:
No continuity
Sounds like we're getting somewhere...
Sun Oct 03, 2021 10:21 am

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Sun Oct 03, 2021 10:21 am linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
Sounds like we're getting somewhere...
Somewhere is good. Even know I'm still lost. But at least I'm headed somewhere!
Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:00 pm

Lucky
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Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:00 pm linkquote
First off, which handlebar switch panel did you purchase? SIP Part #, assuming it's a SIP switch.

Then, let's run down the list of things that are in the bike and tell us what's working and what's not...
Yellow Circuit (5)
- Tail Light
- Speedo Light
- Pilot Light -- Not Working

Red (6) and Blue (3) Circuits:
- Brake Light
- Switch should be for a battery bike

Blue (3) and Signals (4)
-Turn Signals (Unless you didn't add any)


- Headlight:
-- High Beam
-- Low Beam

Gray (7) and Blue (3)--2 cables combined/joined
- Horn

Green (2)
- Kill Switch -- Not working

I'm going to post up some more in a minute, but this will get us started.
Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:34 pm

Lucky
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Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:34 pm linkquote
Because it's raining and I don't have enough to do with my time today, I took the photos of your harness off the SIP site and annotated them with the function of each wire, as best I could ascertain since that diagram doesn't exactly match the harness.

This will hopefully help you troubleshoot by clearly showing what each wire does and where it goes.

Lemme know if this helps.


Brake Switch


Headset


Junction Box on the motor


Regulator


Ignition/hidden kill switch


Tail Light


Mystery wires. I'd say check them for 12V once you have other things in place. Turn signals, maybe?

Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:39 pm

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Sun Oct 03, 2021 1:39 pm linkquote
Sorry I'm not at home right now but, switch is SIP #60091300 the 12v conversion switch.

Brake light switch is the correct one, I may have had the switch too close to the pedal not allowing the switch to open enough to let current through. Going to check that next time I run the bike unless there's another way to check without running the engine?


Thanks, you're a saint!
Sun Oct 03, 2021 2:31 pm

Lucky
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Sun Oct 03, 2021 2:31 pm linkquote
Looking at the part description, they tell us the socket # for each wire:
Quote:
Connection:

M = Kill -- Green
1 = Speedo/ Tail Light / Parking Light -- Yellow
4 = white/black cable from SIP speedo changeover switch
6 = Low Beam (Brown)
7 = High Beam (Purple)
8 = Horn (White)
What's missing from their list is the 12V in (blue wire), which is...oh, I don't know...kind've important? Anyways, it's down in the lower left corner if you're looking at the outside where the buttons are, so lower right corner if you're looking at the back to connect it.

Lemme know if that helps!
Sun Oct 03, 2021 3:20 pm

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Sun Oct 03, 2021 3:20 pm linkquote
FridayMatinee wrote:
No continuity
There has to be continuity between those two, or that bulb won't work.

Between you and I, there doesn't seem to be any purpose for that bulb. Could be a Euro regulation or something (?)
Have you run a wire from your speedo to #4 on your switch? You'll have to stick a clumsy button somewhere on your headset if you don't.
You've got some awesome stuff there, once you get it sorted out.
Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:42 pm

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Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:42 pm linkquote
[quote="chandlerman"]
First off, which handlebar switch panel did you purchase? SIP Part #, assuming it's a SIP switch.

Then, let's run down the list of things that are in the bike and tell us what's working and what's not...
Yellow Circuit (5)
- Tail Light - WORKS
- Speedo Light - Doesn't Work (possibly more to dye with how I had the brown and red wires from the speedo power box hooked up. I moved that connection to one of the yellow wires coming out of the regulator like in the SIP video.
- Pilot Light -- Not Working

Red (6) and Blue (3) Circuits:
- Brake Light
- Switch should be for a battery bike

Blue (3) and Signals (4)
-Turn Signals (Unless you didn't add any)- Not installed


- Headlight:
-- High Beam
-- Low Beam
One of these works. Not sure which one honestly. In one position the light works in the middle or other side of the rocker doesn't work. Next time I kick her over I can make a note of which side of the switch works.

Gray (7) and Blue (3)--2 cables combined/joined
- Horn - Not Working

Green (2)
- Kill Switch -- Not working

Going to go over the switch wires again and will report back. I think I originally used the SIP positions but got advice that the wires needed to be moved around in there.
Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:44 pm

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Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:44 pm linkquote
Ray8 wrote:
There has to be continuity between those two, or that bulb won't work.

Between you and I, there doesn't seem to be any purpose for that bulb. Could be a Euro regulation or something (?)
Have you run a wire from your speedo to #4 on your switch? You'll have to stick a clumsy button somewhere on your headset if you don't.
You've got some awesome stuff there, once you get it sorted out.
Not yet on #4. Wanted to get the speedo working and set up before I wired that one up. I think I read on the SIP speedo you need the button to set it up then you can move the wire to #4. So just waiting to do that.
Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:46 pm

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Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:46 pm linkquote
Switch is wired correctly.



Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:47 pm

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Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:47 pm linkquote
And here's how the headlight is wired.



Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:50 pm

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Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:50 pm linkquote
Doh. I'm not sure if I checked the other toggle jammer on the left of the switch when I had it running and was checking the lights…. Whoops. That might have something to do with this.
Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:02 pm

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Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:02 pm linkquote
Here's the horn and tail light





Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:04 pm

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Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:04 pm linkquote
Speedo power box tie into the regulator



Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:31 pm

Lucky
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Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:31 pm linkquote
On the tail light, can you double-check that the positive and ground aren't swapped?

Other wires all look good. The only thing that might merit a test is seeing if you get joy putting the blue wire on the headset switch into #4. It's BS that SIP don't provide proper wiring diagrams for their parts.

My BGM harness and switch were wonderfully documented, including pictures similar to what I put together. Even mating it to my DC Vape regulator was trivial with good documentation.
Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:34 am

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Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:34 am linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
On the tail light, can you double-check that the positive and ground aren't swapped?

Other wires all look good. The only thing that might merit a test is seeing if you get joy putting the blue wire on the headset switch into #4. It's BS that SIP don't provide proper wiring diagrams for their parts.

My BGM harness and switch were wonderfully documented, including pictures similar to what I put together. Even mating it to my DC Vape regulator was trivial with good documentation.
I can check that. According to the wiring diagram they're right but who's to say that diagram is right! And yeah the lack of instructions/clear instructions gets a bit maddening.
Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:50 pm

Lucky
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Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:50 pm linkquote
To better clarify, here's what I was referring to about checking the ground is wired correctly. Apologies if it's over-simplistic, but when it comes to electrical troubleshooting, there's really no such thing.

I have no idea how this gawdawful light wound up in my shop or where it came from, other than some third-tier back alley sandcasting shop, but it was the only one I had lying around not attached to a bike.





Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:13 pm

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Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:13 pm linkquote
FridayMatinee wrote:
Here's the horn and tail light
You have a short there for sure, the red wire. Maybe the yellow too, but can't see from that angle.
The tan colored insulators are to keep the red and yellow wires from touching ground, in your case that housing and any metal in contact with it.



Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:28 pm

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Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:28 pm linkquote
Ray8 wrote:
You have a short there for sure, the red wire. Maybe the yellow too, but can't see from that angle.
The tan colored insulators are to keep the red and yellow wires from touching ground, in your case that housing and any metal in contact with it.
Ok yeah I thought that may be the problem. Guess I'll try the soldered ball method instead of the wrap. Classic do it wrong for speed rather than the right way so it works eh?
Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:30 pm

Lucky
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Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:30 pm linkquote
In the short-term, that's what electrical tape is for. In the long-term, it's still what electrical tape is for.
Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:01 pm

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Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:01 pm linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
In the short-term, that's what electrical tape is for. In the long-term, it's still what electrical tape is for.
I used to be so good at soldering. I lost that skill a few concussions ago I think. I can not for the life of me solder at all anymore. I gotta sit down and relearn that.
Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:59 pm

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Tue Oct 05, 2021 4:59 pm linkquote
FridayMatinee wrote:
Ok yeah I thought that may be the problem. Guess I'll try the soldered ball method instead of the wrap. Classic do it wrong for speed rather than the right way so it works eh?
Can you post pics of both sides of the red and yellow connections?
Keep in mind that the yellow wire power kicks in when you start the bike (there's no switch to it). If there's a short there you're shorting power from everything else past the regulator.
Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:45 am

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Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:45 am linkquote
Ray8 wrote:
Can you post pics of both sides of the red and yellow connections?
Keep in mind that the yellow wire power kicks in when you start the bike (there's no switch to it). If there's a short there you're shorting power from everything else past the regulator.
They both look like this. Electrical tape solved the short.


Top side


Bottom side

Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:46 am

Lucky
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Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:46 am linkquote
Progress!

You'll probably want to come back to that at some point, even if it's just to add more electrical tape.
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:08 pm

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Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:08 pm linkquote
chandlerman wrote:
Progress!

You'll probably want to come back to that at some point, even if it's just to add more electrical tape.
Yeah I haven't button it back up yet and wanted to do a quick test run to see what was what. Going to redo the tape and wrap it around the flap better so it holds for more than a week.

Ps set up that first oil auxiliary tank I got as a small gas tank for testing the engine with the full tank out. Dunno why I didn't do this WAY sooner hahaha
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:10 pm

Lucky
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Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:10 pm linkquote
FridayMatinee wrote:
Ps set up that first oil auxiliary tank I got as a small gas tank for testing the engine with the full tank out. Dunno why I didn't do this WAY sooner hahaha
Probably because this crowd revels in our ability to come up with thoroughly ill-conceived temporary fuel tanks
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:30 pm

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Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:30 pm linkquote
so it's easy to see why he had a short, but what is the wiring connection to the insulated part of the lamp supposed to look like? I'm sure it wasn't a bit of twisted wire but I've not seen a proper one.
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:32 pm

Lucky
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Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:32 pm linkquote
I think it's supposed to be soldered in place. I don't know for sure, though.
Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:46 pm

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Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:46 pm linkquote
from qascooter's thread, maybe they were soldered, someone actually used a butt connector to keep the business end on his bike

Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:58 pm

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Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:58 pm linkquote
FridayMatinee wrote:
They both look like this. Electrical tape solved the short.
You're missing the connectors there. I don't know what they originally looked like.
Two insulated ring terminals, with holes the same size as the inside diameter of the tan insulators you now have, will work very well IMO. Any hardware store should have them.



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