Modern Vespa

What's happened to Harley-Davidson reliability??

And in case your browser hates you: www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkxHo819aac

Miguel? Miguel?

8)

AMF catches a lot of grief that is undeserved in my opinion. Most of HD's problems in the AMF years were labor related. Poor quality due to an unhappy workforce. Not that AMF did anything to fix that problem. But what AMF did do, that they rarely get credit for, is oversee the design and development of the Evolution engine platform. The Evo brought HD into the modern era while still remaining faithful to the traditional push rod Vtwin heritage. The Evo solved the oil leaking problems and made better power with higher reliability. AMF invested millions in its design and development only to sell the company back to a US based investment group (led by Willie G Davidson and other company executives) right as the first models using the Evo platform were starting to roll off the assembly line. Additionally, disk brakes and belt final drives were introduced by AMF. All huge improvements. In my opinion, AMF saved HD. Without their investment, HD would have died in the 1970s.

Some people wonder why AMF would buy HD. For many years before the purchase, AMF provided foundry services to HD (motor case and head castings). It was a significant part of their business revenue. They had a vested interest in the success of HD and decided it was better to help them survive than to let them go under. By the early 80s they were souring on the idea of building and selling motorcycles. This made for a perfect opportunity for the employees to buy the company back and turn it into a "us vs. them" moment where the little guy came out the victor.

-Craig

Great post Craig! I've heard/read a lot of this. Thanks much.

Last I saw, they hand-assembled all their engines. Which seems like a good thing, except humans make mistakes. The engine design is somewhat antiquated, certainly not designed from the start for reliability.

From reading the tech columns, some of the assembly is 'fiddly' and non-obvious, and perhaps shadetree mechanics are less likely to get it right. Doesn't help that they're mostly air-cooled (except the latest ones) which are more likely to malfunction in high or low temps. And are perhaps a little pickier about how they are operated, needing to be warmed up more carefully.

When I toured the KC factory many years back, a big sign on the wall procliimed that the the number one customer concern was paint and finish quality. Not reliabiity. So perhaps not a manufacturer concern either.

And partly, they suffer by comparison. For many years they were the standard of reliability. Then the Japanese bikes came, provided high power in small-lightweight packages that weren't loud, didn't leak oil, and were bulletproof (not counting the 2-strokes, of course). Suddenly they were playing catch-up.

I suspect Harley, in the hands of competent mechanics and riders, are as reliable as anything else, given proper maintenance.

I don't hate Harleys. Kinda cool in an anachronistic way. The idiots that think the first thing you do is take off the mufflers, then ride around making as much noise as possible, are another story.

It is kinda funny that the riders still think they are high-performance bikes.

I don't see any controversy here... 90% of all Harleys ever made are still on the road.
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The other 10% made it home.

Sorry, very old joke, I know. Couldn't help myself.

I have a 2014 Sportster Superlow, Hammer 1250, 30 degree reverse dome 10.5 to 1 pistons. smash head work, big valves 8 thousand RPM valve springs. 560 cams, S&S rockers and lifters. ported throttle body and intake,
Hammer crush air cleaner, Barnett clutch
Tuned by Power Vision
Supertrapp Supermegs exhaust
1200 gearing, super brace
Progressive suspension front & rear
It is 110 horse power. It as smooth a Harley as I've ever ridden. It is stone reliable. It is a rocket. Very fast. I love it.

The Sportsters seem to be Harleys most realiable bike.

[/url]https://youtu.be/3u1vo02XaJM

Notice that the best and most reliable Harleys result from taking Harley parts off and replacing them?

What octane gas do you run in it? And how long can it put out that 110 HP before it overheats?

Not beating on Harleys (much) just curious. Seems like the air cooling would be inadequate to support that level of power for any length of time.

As long as I want to. When I cruise on the interstate at 75 to 80 mph, the oil temp will get to around 225. Ive done this for hours at a time with no issues. Around town it runs around 200 degrees. I have my rpm limited to 7500. It will get there quick. It runs on 93 octane. Its just a fun bike to ride.

Ive put 25000 miles on this set up and have not had the first problem.
There is a guy on the sportster forum who runs a lot of iron butt races that has 226 thousand on his Sportster with no rebuilds.

Man that's a lot of upgrade to get to 110 hp from stock 67 hp. I'll stick with my stock 160 hp BMW but I can appreciate the passion some feel for HD.

This one is only around 130 hp.

Sorry the utube video wont post. Its a good one though.

My bike turns 11.05 at 120 mph in the quarter. What does yours turn?

My money would be on the BMW. Not a lot of it, mind you. Just enough to get in the action.

Hammer makes street kits that will blow that BMW out of the water. They will turn the 1/4 in the 9s. and be reliable as a daily rider. I thought about going in that direction but decided I didn't need to be that fast.

Now I'm a touch confused.

Are you saying the bike you actually own would be beaten by Harbinger's BMW, but in theory, if you did some further upgrades, you could beat it?

I don't know if I could beat him or not. I don't know what his time in the 1/4 is. I have not raced a BMW. Some of the guys that have hotter builds will run in the 9s. I doubt a BMW will run that fast. I don't know if they will run in the 11s. I do know that mine does. The most fun I have is cruising the country side and the occasional red light race when they think oh thats just a Sportster, no problem. I don't think its important whose bike is faster. People are surprised when they find out how fast mine is. LOL

Here you go - stock specs - zero upgrades.

https://www.motorbikecatalog.com/moto/2018/137615/bmw_k_1600_gt.html

Top speed:

241 km/h / 150 mph

(theor. without speed governor)


specs interline
Accelerations:


0-80 km/h (sec):

2.3

0-100 km/h (sec):

2.9

0-160 km/h (sec):

6.4

0-200 km/h (sec):

11.6

0-300 km/h (sec):

0-50 mph (sec):

2.3

0-60 mph (sec):

2.8

0-100 mph (sec):

6.4

0-150 mph (sec):

0-200 mph (sec):


specs interline
Drag times:


0- 1/4mile (sec):

10.9

0- 1km (sec):

20.8

this is the addresshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u1vo02XaJMbut i cant get it to work

He just beats me. The 9 sec guys will take him. Have a good one

Hammers 110 HP kit

We have Bren Tuning which will get better results with stock parts. Costs about $500.

FWIW I never plan on running the thing all out anyway. It's a very comfy touring bike though.

That likely takes around 35-40 HP. I'd be more interested in seeing what happens if you put it on a dyno, load it to max HP, and let it run. I'm guessing overheating in short order, perhaps 30 seconds or less. So not really a 110 HP engine.

On the other hand, a 600 sportbike can be run at full-throttle for extended periods without ill effect. And put out more power than your Harley, with half the displacement.

I like old-fashioned engines as well as the next guy, maybe more, but a long-stroke air-cooled V-Twin is never gonna make power like a liquid-cooled short-stroke inline 4.

Maybe just me, but every time I'm riding behind a Harley, I smell burning oil. Takes me back to the '60s, when cars burned oil too.

Some good points and bang on about the sportbike. I was just playing around and have nothing against Harley's . Not my thing but I understand the passion some feel about them. in my case when it comes to big bikes I fall in to the BMW camp but mine is overkill. I don't "need" a 1649CC, liquid cooled 4-stroke in-line 6-cylinder , 160hp bike with a quick shifter. I just got a really good deal on it and it was a case of right place, right time. I love the bike but would be just as happy with something not quite as beefy.

That being said when you put the bike in dynamic mode it takes off like a rocket especially when you consider it is a sport touring bike. When you look at them though you can see they are not messing around about the "sport" part of sport touring.

I've yet to meet a Harley owner who thinks his bike is high performance. In fact a large number of Harley owners spend oodles of cash trying to improve their bike's "performance."

Harley owners purchase for the distinctive ride experience, the torque, the aura, the social aspect, made-in-America, etc., but not so much for performance.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=1275+harley+vs+600+gixxer

This?

https://youtu.be/9oXvy14skhw

Any excuse to ride with tassels.

But at the end of it, they think they've succeeded.

Although locally, 'performance' seems to mean how far into the next county can you hear them.

Who needs an excuse?

Having 5 BMW's I admit I am prejudiced on this one.

Aside from being objectionably noisy due to pipe changes, the H-D's where I live are mostly ridden by ostentatious financial advisers and insurance brokers. When the HOGs go riding, they ride in pairs in very close formation, with strict rules as to who may ride where. They have Ride Captains and Road Marshals who (illegally) stop traffic to ferry the faithful through the intersections.

When my BMW Club rides, we have a Ride Leader (who facilitated the route and the destination) and a Sweep who is there to assist in case of breakdowns, etc.
Between those two, the rest of the riders ride their own ride. We encourage safe distances between riders in staggered formation to double the gap and provide swerving space.
If we do make a turn, the rider behind the leader stops safely at/after the turn and waits for the sweep, in order to show the rest of the group where to turn.

The only Rules are simple:
1. Don't ride into the bike in front of you.
2. The bike buddy behind you is your responsibility - keep them in sight.

I wonder which of the two approaches epitomizes the spirit of 'Freedom of the Road' more?

Yes, the BMW and Harley "camp" are different breeds and often do not see things the same way. However I have met a lot of great folks on Harley's and there is a passion there. I respect that passion but yeah am a hard pass on the loud pipes. The protective gear thing is also something I don't get . It's not 100% of HD riders but the odds of seeing someone on a BMW in protective gear vs a HD is much, much higher.

However in Tripp's case he's wondering about why the quality seems to be slipping. My guess is the underpants gnomes are at work and it's about profit. The company has lost its way and does not seem to know if it seems apparel or bikes. Lots of reading out there on the demise as well as YouTube videos. Tripp knows that and comes here for feedback and to pimp his own YouTube channel that seems to be doing pretty well. Hey, nothing wrong with using any avenue you have provided the board allows it.

hexnut has a thing for making HD's go faster than designed. Yeah sure that's fun as a hobby and hell I've kitted my Vespa out for performance. In my case it's simply that I prefer to make a slow bike go fast than to make a fast bike go faster. I will Bren Tune my K1600 but that's just me and it appeals to the nerd on me. It also does more than just make the bike go faster. I think the governor is set to about 150 mph for my bike and like I'll ever get close to that... I'm good to just over 100 mph and my Vespa does that.

Oh FWIW BMW's also are known to break down. The build quality is usually there but there is so much tech in the damn things to go wrong and shoving a 160hp engine in a motorcycle I imagine is not easy. All the safety built in also means a lot has to happen in unison and on the fly. I am very happy to see more bike companies focus on safety and Harely needs to do the same. I think to some extent they have but it seems less important to them than the image.

Another factor that affects Harley reliability, that is overlooked, is that many Harley owners modify their bikes. My feeling is "if it ain't broke don't fix it".

This 1000 times! Well, except for the last part. I love to modify things. BUT... if you modify it, don't bitch about reliability later. You can modify and still maintain reliability, but most people don't put the research and money into it to maintain the reliability.

-Craig

https://youtu.be/3u1vo02XaJM

This harley has a 1275 Hammer top end. The bottom end is stock, the trans is stock. The swing arm is stretched. Its between 120 and 130 HP. He does alright.

I'm struggling to see the point here? A HD that costs twice as much, has twice the displacement, and a bunch of aftermarket parts is faster than a UJM? Looks like he was struggling to keep the front wheel down. Is it just who has the longest swingarm?

You know what they say about long swingarms.

Long chains?

I used to come here a few years ago, then stopped coming. I remember why now. I'm getting old and have Rheumatoid arthritis. I was thinking of selling the Sportster and getting a Vespa for the remainder of my time. I don't think I want one now. Have a good one.

Obviously the sportbike rider was inexperienced at drag racing. Noticed the Harley did a 10.2, which is a decent ET. But not spectacular for a bike. Especially not for one specifically built for drag racing. With a few mods, a GSXR 1000 will get in the low 8's.

Gotta wonder how long a stock bottom end is gonna last with that much more power, and higher revs.