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UTC quote
The word on the street is that there are lots of reliability problems with the Pan America and less so but significant ones with the New Sportster.
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GT 200
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UTC quote
A survey of owners over the last four years is going to be a lot different than a survey of owners who put 30000 miles on the bike in the last four years. There are quite a few Harley Davidsons that have been to Daytona and Myrtle Beach, and Sturgis every year that end up with maybe 6000 miles on them in four years. One would hope they didn't blow up in 6000 miles.

And because Harley Davidsons are more reliable than they were thirty years ago doesn't mean they are reliable compared to any other brand of motorcycle. You might as well compare a brand new Harley Davidson to a 1965 Honda 55, and then say they are more reliable than Hondas, maybe (Jury's still out on that one).

What has hurt Harley Davidson more than anything is that they became associated with an owner's group that young people don't want to emulate. Many people got interested in riding because of movies like The Wild One, Easy Rider and Electra Glide in Blue, among others. The people in biker movies were, to young Americans at the time, countercultural heroes who lived in a world very different from the one their parents raised them in. Fast forward a couple of generations, and many young people associate the brand with Cranky Grandpa, the one who ruins Thanksgiving.

And it hasn't helped that Harley Davidson has focused more on milking their existing ridership for all it can, and setting up production to China and India to grow their market, than on trying to engage young riders in the US. So if you are a beginner who bought the whole Harley Davidson story and want to participate in the lifestyle, the response from the brand is, "Here's something from India we stuck our name on. Now let's go pick out a jacket and a bandana and a wallet with a chain on it."
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UTC quote
I owned, wrenched on and rode Harleys for many years. I never got into the whole lifestyle thing, that idea came later from Willie G's observation that a lot of money was being spent on accessories from other companies, stuff they could sell inhouse themselves. During the 80s, dealerships doubled ( and more) in size to handle all the new t-shirts, jackets, etc.... the scene was changing - Arnold Schwarzenegger owned one! The meet ups at Daytona, Myrtle and Sturgis had bikes trailered in and the doctors and the like would fly in to ride them around town in all their new Harley store bought duds. The bikes were the same, but again, the scene changed. They milked this so called lifestyle for the next 20 years and it's still going, but not as much. As mentioned, many are being sold because the riders are quitting or moved on to the next thing. Most of the younger riders I know have no interest in buying or owning one, they're into different machines. The last one I owned I bought to fix and flip - a 1997 Sportster. It was a good machine and I know a buddy that has over 80,000 miles on his - with no major problems. But I sold it, as my focus is older, lighter Vespas. YMMV.
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UTC

Atypical Canadian
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UTC quote
Harbinger wrote:
Here you go - stock specs - zero upgrades.

https://www.motorbikecatalog.com/moto/2018/137615/bmw_k_1600_gt.html

Top speed:

241 km/h / 150 mph

(theor. without speed governor)


specs interline
Accelerations:


0-80 km/h (sec):

2.3

0-100 km/h (sec):

2.9

0-160 km/h (sec):

6.4

0-200 km/h (sec):

11.6

0-300 km/h (sec):

0-50 mph (sec):

2.3

0-60 mph (sec):

2.8

0-100 mph (sec):

6.4

0-150 mph (sec):

0-200 mph (sec):


specs interline
Drag times:


0- 1/4mile (sec):

10.9

0- 1km (sec):

20.8
Put it against my old 2006 HD V-Rod, with the caveat that since your displacement exceeds the v-rods by 45%, you should at least beat the V-Rod by 25%, you know, just to make it a fair fight. Think you'll win? lol

5 years with the V-Rod, about 25,000 km. I had a thermostat fail. That's it. Just regular maintenance. Didn't even replace the battery.
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UTC quote
adri wrote:
Put it against my old 2006 HD V-Rod, with the caveat that since your displacement exceeds the v-rods by 45%, you should at least beat the V-Rod by 25%, you know, just to make it a fair fight. Think you'll win? lol

5 years with the V-Rod, about 25,000 km. I had a thermostat fail. That's it. Just regular maintenance. Didn't even replace the battery.
That was a 2019 so like 2 bikes ago The K1600 is now an R1250 GSA so a boxer and step down to 1250 CCs but hey life goes on.
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UTC quote
So the argument is that older bikes are better than new bikes as there's less new stuff to break ?
@adri avatar
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UTC quote
Harbinger wrote:
That was a 2019 so like 2 bikes ago The K1600 is now an R1250 GSA so a boxer and step down to 1250 CCs but hey life goes on.
Sounds like an upgrade to me! Was never a K1600 fan.
Bill Dog wrote:
So the argument is that older bikes are better than new bikes as there's less new stuff to break ?
Less stuff to break never hurt.
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UTC quote
Bill Dog wrote:
So the argument is that older bikes are better than new bikes as there's less new stuff to break ?
I guess that's what some people think. I'm a big believe in better is the enemy of good but that only goes so far. It's great to enjoy vintage vehicles and for that matter vintage anything however we need to keep developing new technologies.

Sure some things break more often but how many lives has ABS/ASR saved? Yes please! Keyless ride? also yes please and real handy one you have it. Not to mention I also feel much safer flying in a modern airplane than an older one with less stuff to break .
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UTC quote
Like a Boeing 737 Max ?
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UTC quote
Bill Dog wrote:
Like a Boeing 737 Max ?
12.5 million safe flights for every fatal crash. Airbus A320 has an identical safety record. I get your point but I bet they are safer than planes in the 80's

https://www.scotsman.com/news/world/boeing-crash-what-is-the-safety-record-of-the-boeing-737-following-china-crash-3619468

https://simpleflying.com/how-safe-is-flying/
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UTC quote
My buddy had an 05 Evo in a Tour bike. He waited all his life to buy a Hog and glowed when he got it.

Two years later it rubbed through the oil cooler line and sprayed the side of the bike soaking front to back. He dropped it at a dealer and was told the hose wasn't available alone, they had to install the whole kit, cooler and all. They said it would take two weeks for the kit to come in. He got it back a month later. BTW it did all this in Lake George necessitating a bus ride back to Long Island and a train trip back when it was done.

A year later his battery went dead. Bad stator.

A year later the bike died with a dead battery and needed to to be towed home. Bad regulator.

He bought a Victory Cross Country.

"I really loved the bike. It didn't love me," he bemoaned.
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UTC quote
adri wrote:
Sounds like an upgrade to me! Was never a K1600 fan.
Agreed. Also, I'm a boxer fan.
adri wrote:
Less stuff to break never hurt.
I'm of two minds on this, but I think (maybe) I can articulate a way out.

I've never, ever been a believer in "older is better". At least, not just because it's older. Look at the first part of this site's name if anyone is unsure of where I stand on that point.

What I'm not a fan of is excessive complication. Vintage vehicles sometimes are better, just because they tend to be primitive and, as you say, have less stuff to break. I agree with this, but it's not so much that it's designed any better, it's just not overly complicated.

I despise Tesla cars, as it happens -- not because they are EVs, but because their designers have opted for maximum complication and lots and lots of software. Speaking as a software engineer, I know that the road to hell is paved with software. They also have lots of motors and servos (the mirrors and door handles, for instance) that will eventually fail. Yes, they will. And of course, there's the touchscreen controls, which should be outlawed in vehicles.

I read a book quite some time ago that made an impression on me and that I am eternally grateful for: Machine Beauty by David Gelernter. It's an essay, really, barely enough to make a book out of. But it's quite well written.

The gist of Machine Beauty is that the ultimate elegance, when applied to machines, is maximum power and minimum complication. Not raw horsepower, mind you, but capability. When a machine can perform very powerful functions with a minimum of moving parts, that is the definition of machine elegance.

Some would argue that software control of hardware gives you a lot of that simplicity, in that there's less hardware to break. Software engineers know that it's a lie, though -- software complexity is off the charts compared to hardware, and far more prone to failure.

To me, progress is not the continual pile-on of feature after feature, complicating the machine. Progress is the process of maximizing the capabilities of the machine while minimizing the moving parts, on a path toward eventual elegance.

And that's my 3 cents.
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UTC quote
jess wrote:
To me, progress is not the continual pile-on of feature after feature, complicating the machine. Progress is the process of maximizing the capabilities of the machine while minimizing the moving parts, on a path toward eventual elegance.
A mantra when I was involved with 'special effects' in the TV studio - "Never use a relay if a switch will do, never use a microprocessor if relays can be used."
Anything to maximise reliability.

Also, ensure every action taken is completely reversible as if it had never happened. e.g. if something gets broken, you ALWAYS have spares.
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UTC quote
adri wrote:
Sounds like an upgrade to me! Was never a K1600 fan.
Less stuff to break never hurt.
jess wrote:
Agreed. Also, I'm a boxer fan.
Of course I agree with both of you I'm much happier with the boxer and GSA. Just can't wait until we move to Vancouver Island where the riding is way better for her.
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UTC quote
I certainly agree with the view that additional complexity simply for the sake of claiming "new" features often needlessly reduces reliability and increases maintenance costs. On the other hand, I have often read the argument on this site that fuel injected bikes should be avoided because carbed bikes are simpler (and, by implication, more reliable). Over time I have owned quite a few carbed and fuel injected motorcycles and scooters. My experience has been that fuel injection is generally a model of reliability, while carburettors require frequent attention and adjustment. So, I'd add that it depends on what system we are discussing. Give me a fuel injected engine every time for reliability.
⚠️ Last edited by Dooglas on UTC; edited 1 time
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UTC quote
jess wrote:
And of course, there's the touchscreen controls, which should be outlawed in vehicles.
This week on a work trip, I received a rental car upgrade to a brand new Mercedes SUV. It took me ten minutes of just sitting in the rental garage to figure out how to get the thing sorted for driving. So many interfaces and distractions.

Interestingly, the shifter is a dainty little lever/wand where the wiper typically is. The large square on the center console was NOT a shifter, rather a touchpad to control the media. You should have seen the amount of force I was applying to try to 'shift' the touch pad into drive!

It took both me and the booth guy at checkout five minutes to find the actual odometer reading, buried under many display options.
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UTC quote
jess wrote:
Speaking as a software engineer, I know that the road to hell is paved with software.
100%

This is why I decided to stop being a software engineer after 30+ years. The focus was on adding often useless features instead of fixing things. The result was I was swearing too much at others people's software and websites (fixing my own bugs is fun).
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UTC quote
Dooglas wrote:
On the other hand, I have often read the argument on this site that fuel injected bikes should be avoided because carbed bikes are simpler (and, by implication, more reliable). Over time I have owned quite a few carbed and fuel injected motorcycles and scooters. My experience has been that fuel injection is generally a model of reliability, while carburettors require frequent attention and adjustment.
I think the people claiming carbs are simpler are mostly off-base, and that fuel injection is (mostly) simpler and more reliable. And I much prefer fuel injection, especially for any vehicle that doesn't get used daily.

Where fuel injection has repeatedly failed in this context -- the Vespa -- is not in the injectors or even the control systems (though neither of these are immune to failure). The weakest link in the fuel injection system of modern Vespas is clearly the fuel pump.
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UTC quote
Shebalba wrote:
Interestingly, the shifter is a dainty little lever/wand where the wiper typically is.
I have a Mercedes Benz Metris cargo van I use for work and it has that same shifter. Every single time I drive Mrs. GBaby's car I turn the windshield wipers on when putting it in gear.
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UTC quote
jess wrote:
I think the people claiming carbs are simpler are mostly off-base, and that fuel injection is (mostly) simpler and more reliable. And I much prefer fuel injection, especially for any vehicle that doesn't get used daily.

Where fuel injection has repeatedly failed in this context -- the Vespa -- is not in the injectors or even the control systems (though neither of these are immune to failure). The weakest link in the fuel injection system of modern Vespas is clearly the fuel pump.
There's nothing simple about trying to change jets on the side of the road
Fuel injection is vastly superior if you ride at higher altitudes & back down to sea level
HD riders expressed some consternation when Showa injection & forks were 1st introduced, but were won over by the performance
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1980 Vespa P200e (sold), 2002 Vespa ET4 (sold), 1949 Harley-Davidson FL
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UTC quote
jess wrote:
Agreed. Also, I'm a boxer fan.



I'm of two minds on this, but I think (maybe) I can articulate a way out.

I've never, ever been a believer in "older is better". At least, not just because it's older. Look at the first part of this site's name if anyone is unsure of where I stand on that point.

What I'm not a fan of is excessive complication. Vintage vehicles sometimes are better, just because they tend to be primitive and, as you say, have less stuff to break. I agree with this, but it's not so much that it's designed any better, it's just not overly complicated.

I despise Tesla cars, as it happens -- not because they are EVs, but because their designers have opted for maximum complication and lots and lots of software. Speaking as a software engineer, I know that the road to hell is paved with software. They also have lots of motors and servos (the mirrors and door handles, for instance) that will eventually fail. Yes, they will. And of course, there's the touchscreen controls, which should be outlawed in vehicles.

I read a book quite some time ago that made an impression on me and that I am eternally grateful for: Machine Beauty by David Gelernter. It's an essay, really, barely enough to make a book out of. But it's quite well written.

The gist of Machine Beauty is that the ultimate elegance, when applied to machines, is maximum power and minimum complication. Not raw horsepower, mind you, but capability. When a machine can perform very powerful functions with a minimum of moving parts, that is the definition of machine elegance.

Some would argue that software control of hardware gives you a lot of that simplicity, in that there's less hardware to break. Software engineers know that it's a lie, though -- software complexity is off the charts compared to hardware, and far more prone to failure.

To me, progress is not the continual pile-on of feature after feature, complicating the machine. Progress is the process of maximizing the capabilities of the machine while minimizing the moving parts, on a path toward eventual elegance.

And that's my 3 cents.
Oh boy... So much truth here.

I write software for vehicle control systems for a major luxury brand. I honestly would never want to own one of these cars/SUVs. I especially hate the software enabled features the owner has to pay for year after year even after they purchased the vehicle. I feel sick that I contributed to this level of bullshitery. I can't wait to retire later this year.
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UTC quote
caschnd1 wrote:
I especially hate the software enabled features the owner has to pay for year after year even after they purchased the vehicle.
Agreed. This is an especially obnoxious trend. I don't blame the software engineers here, though, but I do blame the MBAs.
caschnd1 wrote:
I feel sick that I contributed to this level of bullshitery. I can't wait to retire later this year.
Do it and don't look back. It's unsettling at first, and you may (or may not) struggle to find a rhythm and a purpose. I know I did, for an entire year. Eventually I started picking up the things I had been putting off, focusing on the things that I wanted to do. I think I've come out the other end of the tunnel now.
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UTC quote
jess wrote:
Agreed. This is an especially obnoxious trend. I don't blame the software engineers here, though, but I do blame the MBAs.

What if you were an engineer with an MBA?
Asking for a friend....
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UTC quote
Madison Sully wrote:
What if you were an engineer with an MBA?
Asking for a friend....
Pshaw. Doesn't exist. When you get the MBA degree it cancels the CS (or other engineering) degree, and vice-versa.
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jess wrote:
Pshaw. Doesn't exist. When you get the MBA degree it cancels the CS (or other engineering) degree, and vice-versa.
Facepalm emoticon
What if I just got an MBA out of boredom? I mean, what if they...


Shit.
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UTC quote
Madison Sully wrote:
Facepalm emoticon
What if I just got an MBA out of boredom? I mean, what if they...
Please ask your "friend" to turn in their engineer ID card.
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What would you rather own and run these days, a Mercedes Benz 220 built in 1969 or an A 220 built last year ?
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Bill Dog wrote:
What would you rather own and run these days, a Mercedes Benz 220 built in 1969 or an A 220 built last year ?
Neither? Is neither an option?
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Checks notes. er No.
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Bill Dog wrote:
Checks notes. er No.
You can drive whatever you want, Bill. I've been speaking in broad generalities here. Your specific choice of a specific vehicle (or pair of vehicles) is a rather transparent attempt at countering a point that I wasn't actually making.

Try again.
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UTC quote
Bill Dog wrote:
Checks notes. er No.
can I have this 1969 280 instead? It's been converted to EV

https://kinghornelectricvehicles.com/listings_portfolio/1969-mercedes-280-se-ev-conversion/
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SteelBytes wrote:
can I have this 1969 280 instead? It's been converted to EV

https://kinghornelectricvehicles.com/listings_portfolio/1969-mercedes-280-se-ev-conversion/
My buddy still has an early 90's SL500, bought new.
Their reliability reputation is nor good neither bad, somewhat average - this example has served him well, no issues during the last 30 years OK, it's not his primary car anymore, but still...

I'll guess this is the 'issue' with some brands with questionable reputation, mayby with HD too: the quality variation during years and between models is a bit too large. Pick one and you could get a lemon or diamond...this usually translate into poor/average quality image at wider scale & longer time.

Of course there are those cases too, where the devoted owners just think that small problems are OK as they are easily fixable, where as casual users see these as signs of poor quality. The same with 'features' - heavy clutch, rough gearbox, poor ergonomics (in general, not referring to HDs here)...features for some, design flaws to others.
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My feeling is that you're reading too much into the question.

I'd have the 69 as it would probably end up being cheaper to run.

Often a question is just a question.
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jess wrote:
Agreed. This is an especially obnoxious trend. I don't blame the software engineers here, though, but I do blame the MBAs.

I've been a humble servant for experts in various teams for quite some time already, lost the finest touch to coding. AI used to my special playground when I still had the patience to make a set of neural networks to do something usefull

I may be a disgrace to my fellow engineers, but I honestly don't miss the endless hunt with getting the IoT side and source data quality right, fixing the 'wrong' or inadequate learning patterns etc...it almost felt like work at bad days.

With this background, I really, honestly wonder who makes the most stupid decisions with vehicle software. Like, does it really go so that someone without any techinical understanding says, for example, that 'our cars can drive themselves' and then that's decided?

What I'm afraid, having had the pleasure to meet quite a a bunch of fellow 'ex-hands-on-engineers' during the years, who have found interest in making 'a big impact', that sometimes these colleagues dial their ambition knobs from 'visionary' to 'illusionary'. Believing that because they are/were good in coding and they have good teams, they MUST be able to make things work.

With these guys, MBAs are just dust on the table, to brushed to the right corner with heavy, solid engineering 'facts' of the greatness that will be provided....

Rambling here, but I'll guess the message 'beware of MBAs' should be augmented with 'beware of engineers with megalomania'.

And no, I don't have an MBA degree, instead I've drifted towards the megalomania side with a doctoral degree in technology
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RRider wrote:
.....I've drifted towards the megalomania side with a doctoral degree in technology
Hmmm. I'm not being critical or disrespectful (I hold a PhD myself), but I'm unsure the scope of a "doctoral degree in technology". What does that involve - it sounds a bit like a doctoral degree in science. I've always thought there was more than a little truth in the observation that advanced degrees involve learning more and more about less and less.
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Dooglas wrote:
Hmmm. I'm not being critical or disrespectful (I hold a PhD myself), but I'm unsure the scope of a "doctoral degree in technology". What does that involve - it sounds a bit like a doctoral degree in science. I've always thought there was more than a little truth in the observation that advanced degrees involve learning more and more about less and less.
Contrary to e.g. many other European countries, quite many of our universities are deeply rooted in practice. Especially those focused on technologies. In the official documents my degree is indeed written as 'doctor of technology'. As this is a bit oddball in comparison to e.g. US degrees, nowadays I've seen 'PhD in Science' used in translations too.

More or less with a PhD - we have them both
In technical fields, thesis work here is very often focused on solving practical, industrial problems. My work was about autonomous systems, for which I studied the IoT side (sensors, signal processing etc.), modelling and simulation (neural networks and stuff, the area most would call 'machine learning') and control systems theory. The latter was mostly math.

As I concretely worked with real industrial systems, software was my tool to make something happen. So I had to learn coding too....in the end, a lot of (software) engineering and working solutions, a bit less contribution to science

In general, this whole area of autonomous systems with various sub-branches has long history around here. My gift have always been the ability to find and put the right pieces together in a new way, rather than inventing new pieces.Unlike like e.g. Prof. Kohonen (R.I.P.), who was a global pioneer in neural networks https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organizing_map

...and that's it folks, now we've drifted waaayyy away from HD quality.
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RRider wrote:
...and that's it folks, now we've drifted waaayyy away from HD quality.
Oh, I don't know. I suspect H-D could use more people with the skills you describe.
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I think this discussion on Harley reliability depends on how far we go back and the model discussed.

Since I was there in the era I can tell you this AMF Shovelheads were crap. As I heard from the magazines at the time the bean counters at AMF decreed that the steel valve seats in the aluminum heads were too large and costly. The valve seats were shrunk accordingly. In not much time the valve seats shifted under valves hammering on them and the big twins became big singles. You didn't have to search far to find a half dozen owners who had there their seats recut and new valves installed ANNUALLY. The Evo, now owned by the new organization cured that foible.

Sportsters only suffered under the bore job to 1000cc from 883 and cast iron heads and barrels. Longevity suffered. The change to Evo alloy heads and barrels cured that and even being puffed out to 1200cc didn't bother it. Adding rubber motor mounts made it tolerable.

As a side note neither the V-Rod or the Street models have been troublesome but had overhead cams, which as we know, are witchcraft to Harley owners.
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I hear things about HD reliability that go from one extreme to the other.

On the one hand, I've had Harley owners joke with me about "when you decide to get a REAL motorcycle, never buy anything you can't push...because you will, trust me." A phrase I've heard from several moto mechanics is, "HD: 1940's technology at today's prices." I've pulled over to help out Harleys on the side of the road multiple times.

On the other hand, there's stories like the guy that did 100k miles in 100 days last year. There's a few moto travelers I follow that are overlanding on Harleys: some that pamper their bikes and some that put them through things that I can only imagine attempting.

It's definitely challenged my views on the machines...I'll say that much!
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kz1000ST wrote:
Since I was there in the era I can tell you this AMF Shovelheads were crap. As I heard from the magazines at the time the bean counters at AMF decreed that the steel valve seats in the aluminum heads were too large and costly. The valve seats were shrunk accordingly. In not much time the valve seats shifted under valves hammering on them and the big twins became big singles. You didn't have to search far to find a half dozen owners who had there their seats recut and new valves installed ANNUALLY.
The magazines misled you. The intake and exhaust seats (p/n 18018-66 and 18017-66 respectively) were unchanged the entire run of the shovelhead engine (1966-1984). The owners who were recutting valve seats annually were more likely victims of their own mechanical ability (or lack there of). High flow air cleaners and removing the baffles from exhaust systems were very popular modifications. Unfortunately in the 1970s people were not well informed on the need to adjust carburetor jetting to coincide with the other modifications. This results in a lean air/fuel mixture which leads to burned valves.
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