Modern Vespa

With everyone posting up their Allstate builds, i figured i'd join in...

To start out with, i picked up the scooter from an insurance auto auction (Copart) back in January 2014. It happened to be up for auction at their Portland, Oregon yard. The bidding is all done online, but you can preview the autos/motos beforehand (if you live close enough to one of their yards). I decided to NOT drive the 30 miles over to the yard to preview it. I placed a bid, and boom...later that week i found out i was the highest bidder! I was working a remodel job that was about 15 miles away from the auction yard, so i had a friend give me a lift over there in his car. I paid for the scooter (and all of the crazy auction fees as well), kicked it over and started it up, and rode it back to my jobsite. My buddy and i then stuffed it into the back of my 1980 Civic hunchback. I then transported it the 30 miles back home.

I didn't have much time to look it over until the weekend, but i pretty much knew what i had (more on that later)...which was an Allstate that was in pretty good condition. I took a picture of the two piece stamped steel headset, and showed it to my friend who builds very nice Lammys and Vespas. He recognized this particular scooter right away just by looking at the headset color. Turns out he was the one who was commissioned to build it for someone else!

The previous owner wanted a very nice, very quick, great handling, and very reliable Allstate. So that means that there was already installed a stock P200 engine, aftermarket shocks, PK fork, 10" wheels, and a semi-hydraulic Grimeca disc brake (which is exactly how i would build an older Vespa for the most part)! I only rode the Allstate a couple times because there was damage to the legshield where the badgebar had torn though the sheet metal. I didn't like the looks of the damage, so under a tarp it went for MANY years. About a month ago, most of my other scooters were apart, and i needed something to ride right away. So i pulled out the Allstate and it fired right up with fresh fuel in the tank! That ride definitely jumpstarted my motivation and love for the scooter! I wanted to do a few things to it to "make it my own". But there's only so many things you can do to a vintage scooter that has already been built pretty darn nicely. So my goals are to bring it up to the year 2020 with some modern-ish touches. Yes, all of the expensive stuff has already been done for me, but there are some tricky things that i still want to do to it. My two main goals are a full hydro front disc and MUCH better lighting (planning for LED on a 12VAC system). I'm sure other stuff too will happen...whether planned or unplanned.

Anyhow, here's a pic of the Allstate in the back of my little Civic right after i picked it up 8 years ago!


Notice the Lambretta sticker on the back window of my car?

That's nice love the colour to.

Great find!

Yeah, it was. Most all everything was pretty much done already that i wanted to do to it, so it was almost cheating if you ask me.

Wow - SCORE!!!!! That's an awesome find. All's you need is a Pinasco Electronic Ignition kit and fix the legshield. That is a great find indeed.

P200 in that frame....I can only imagine....

I'll be watching this thread to see what you do.

There was a few things I wanted to sort out first, but my main focus was the oil leaks first. Being that the scooter had sat for about 6+ years since I last ride it, oil was seeping out between the cases. Possibly the crank seals were not compromised as well?...but I wasn't going to take any chances. Splitting the cases was a great opportunity to see what all was I going on inside. The whole transmission looked excellent, but I did replace the existing low mile cruciform with a new Crimaz 'cross. I also swapped in a new short 4th (from a early P125X). For some reason I accidentally bought it from SIP probably about 15 years ago. I meant to have bought a T5 4th at the time, so this one was just gathering dust. And the reason I install short 4ths in all my stock 200 builds, is because where I live has LOTS of hills and headwinds to contend with. If i were to live in a flat area, I probably wouldn't ever swap in a short 4th.

While I was replacing seals, I decided to replace the fly side crank bearing...then I said to heck with it, and replaced both the clutch side and input shaft bearings too.

The existing piston had some blow by, so I could have either installed new rings, or installed a new piston...so I bought a new GS piston and took my cylinder in to get honed. If you look close, you can see it in the above picture.
I also installed a new GS cylinder exhaust stub. The old one was pretty knackered, and was a prime candidate for a leaky connection.

So you suggest its worth it to just replace the exhaust stub instead of using a crusty old one? It could potentially create an air leak?

I've had poor luck in the past with exhaust leaks at the pipe connection when they're gouged up. So if they are gouged quite a bit, it's worth it to be to buy a new one so I don't get frustrated with leaks.

Yes, a big time score! It already has 12VAC ignition (P stator plate, conversion harness, Ducati CDI, OEM regulator), so I doubt I'll step up to a Pinasco.

I'm not looking forward to fixing the legshield at all. Yes, it's a simple fix for me, but it would mean a complete respray if the whole front of the scooter. I was hoping to simply just mount a pair of stem mount Lucas lights (Lambretta style) in the existing holes that are torn, but the lights would be aesthetically too close together to look right.

With all of the blue colored Allstates out there, possibly the best thing to ask is, "so what shade blue is your Allstate?"

I do like the color quite a bit. When I went to ride it to the gym last month, a guy walked right by me, then backed up a few steps. He loved the blue color, and then got halfway through the word "Porsche", and I said, "yes, orange Gulf livery would look great on this scooter". Apparently he and I were both on the same page. No idea if I will go that route though. Probably only if I did a complete respray...

It took a fair amount of finagling, but I converted the rear brake over to a T5 cable. I had to shorten the front portion of the T5's outer cable, then slipped an inner Lambretta rear brake cable inside it. I happened to have the bits in my shop to see if I could make it happen, and it all works well together.

And why convert over to a T5 rear brake cable? Well, if you have ever adjusted the rear brake cable on a T5, or have to remove the engine from the frame, then you would know just how quick and easy it is to do (compared to the standard way of pinching the cable between the two plates, or turning the barrel adjuster).

Interesting I've never seen one before, looks like SIP used to stock a conversion kit. Looks like a one way trip? Did you have to drill out the adjuster on the back?

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/conversion-kit-brake-cable-rear-vespa-t5_J50015000?cr=e993ab67-6807-4109-bbed-f6374ebf9f9b&gpc_origin=shopping&gpc_feed_alias=de&gpc_pid=J50015000&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIi-LGqfiG7QIVFoeGCh285wWXEAQYAiABEgJtVfD_BwE

Yes, you have to drill out the threads on the adjuster. And once you do there's no going back to the old way. But at the same time, there is no good reason to go back to the old way. I've done the conversion on 2 other PX's and a PK. It doesn't give you more horsepower or torque, but it's one of those mods that is strictly for ease of maintenance. It makes it so you can also drop the engine faster too. Plus i think it tidys up the cable underneath.

And yes, it shows that SIP used to sell the cable conversion in kit form. I don't know if they every actually did though. Ironically enough, you can buy all the parts separately and it might(?) cost less than in kit form.

Great find and progressing nicely.

Nice!!! On your next order get a thumb nut, retap it to M6 and it will be even easier to adjust the brake. T5s had them from the factory but no repros nowadays...

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/adjusting-nut-m5-mm-brake-front-sip_17964100?q=Brake%20nut%20px

You just described every scooter part I've ever bought!


Looks like a nice project. What do you have in mind for the master cylinder? This is the one that persuaded me you could have disc brakes on a classic Vespa and still look stock - at least to the uninitiated.

Or there's the 2 bottom photos, a clever solution to a semi setup. I hate to see that semi master cylinder hanging off the fork leg and ruining the beauty of the front end. The reservoir looks like it would be close to the tyre, but you could something smaller - I've seen ones that are not much bigger than a fat sharpie marker.

Thank for for the pro tip SaFis. I'll get some of those screws ordered up! Also thanks for the picture of your T5 brake adjuster. Your pic is much clearer than mine.

For a master cylinder, I'm going to just use the standard M/C that you would find on any PX disc model. SIP has a very nice looking billet M/C that bolts has the same 2 bolt attachment, but I wasn't motivated financially enough to splurge for that particular M/C, so the standard black colored Piaggio unit will just have to work.

I too also dislike the looks of the semi-hydraulic master cylinder bolted to the fork....and that's exactly where the semi-hydro M/C was mounted. Tucking it under the fender (ladyboy style), really isn't my thing either. I'd much prefer just a single hydro line going from the bars down to the caliper. Ironically, the semi-hydro brake setup on this Allstate was was VERY strong! It could out brake all my other fully hydro disc'd Vespas.

I'll be modifying the Allstate headset to accept the standard Piaggio M/C. I've done that mod to 2 different P200 (early non-disc), a PK125XL, and my T5. It was more or less semi straight forward on those scooters (well not the T5 as much). You pretty much copy the exactly how the PX disc headset is, and start welding the aluminum (the whole process is much easier than it sounds). Since my Allstate headset is make out of stamped sheet metal, it severely lacks any sort of the support that is needed to mount an M/C to. So pretty much being that it's steel makes it less complicated to weld, but since it's only about a 1/16" thick, it makes it VERY difficult to make the whole thing structurally sound. MMW makes a super fancy billet mastercylinder/light switch switch housing, but it's a COMPLETELY different shape than the Allstate's. No way at all will it work. Wrong inside diameter, wrong length of the housing, wrong shape and contour as well.


Here's a pic of the 2 piece headset.

I did buy a knackered up lower Allstate headset from a friend to experiment with.

And with the tubes removed it looks much different than a standard Vespa headset.

And with the paint stripped off the experimental tube.

I lined up the Allstate tube directly over the top of a disc'd lower headset in order to see exactly where the master cylinder would need to be mounted. You kind kinda see just how thin the metal is near the sharpie line.

Ace! Could you kindly show us the mods done to the PK fork steering stops to make it work?

That's another thing that i need to sort out. I think the PK fork that is in the Allstate was purchased from SIP, and it did come with some steering stops that get screwed to the fork itself, but the headset still turns WAY too far both directions. The factory steering stop that's located behind the horn doesn't look bent at all either. It might be a few weeks before i get around to figuring both the problem and solution.

After measuring 40x and staring at it for hours, there's really no going back now...

Guts!

Thanks for that. Gave me a good laugh once I realised what you were talking about!

I'd forgotten about that type of headset. Yes it's very tricky obviously... is there going to be enough support? Will the m/c rotate with the tube? Jacky, WDC has seen this one before I think but I like this solution by a mate of mine. Simple cheap and petty solid.

It's definitely tricky Ginch. That switch housing is completely hollow stamped sheet metal. So it there enough support for a master cylinder?...no not really without adding a bit of material.

As to the tube rotating, no it doesn't. In the Allstate headset, the outer tube that has the switch housing stays stationary since the end that's located under the headset is attached to the headset support (I'm not sure what the actual name for it is) by two screws. The inner throttle tube is what rotates. The switch housing it actually tack welded to the switch housing tube.




In the pic you can see how thin it is.

Whodat!
Man - what a find this one is.
All the stuff you would want - except the super thin brake mount.
Is that piece of bar stock what you are going to fill in the brake mount with to give yourself something to work with?

The SIP PK fork has (had) two aluminum blocks carefully machined to perfectly miss the stock stops on the frame.
That's lucky - because they are held on with an M5 bolt that would have snapped anyway if they had managed to align.
That engineer was no fool!

Im sure you could fab some nicer ones. I like the basics of Ginch's. Maybe some replacement blocks that are tapped with allen head grub screws - that would allow you to do some fine adjustment after you assembled. Just a thought.

Lemme know if you wanna get rid of the old Grimeca. I was thinking about using one of those for the 58 Allstate handlebar model rusting in my garage.

Love this project - full of good stuff - and one of my fave models.

Yes, the scooter was a big time score indeed. Lots of expensive stuff was done to it my the previous owner, but at the same time, i'll probably end up throwing the same amount of time and money into it to making it "my own".

Yup, i got lucky and found that square bar stock in the same drawer that i keep center punches and other drifts. It's 1/4" square, and i really didn't want to cut it up since i do use it quite often as a drift to remove wheel bearings. But it did get "involuntarily" sacrificed to the greater good.

And yes, those carefully machined silly little aluminum "break away" steering stop are on my fork as well. I have zero faith in them, so that will need to be rectified.

"Old Grimeca"? as in the remote semi-hydro reservoir?...'cause i think i have 4 of them in my shop? I have zero use for them. I have no idea why they're even included in the Grimeca disc brake kits. They are rarely ever used from what i've seen.

That 1/4" bar stock fits perfectly in between the old perch mount slot.

And a pic of it cut to length...

And with it welded in. Who cares what the welds look like (for the most part) since they will get ground down anyhow.

And with the welds ground down. Keep in mind I'm just kinda winging it as I'm going. My mantra is to keep throwing metal at it until it becomes substantial enough to support the M/C!

You do some lovely work WDC.

Thank you for the compliment Ginch. Definitely the devil is in the details!

Like I said, since I'm just winging it, I ended up notching out another portion of the switch housing. I found a small 1/4" thick steel plate in my shop...that happened to be the exact size that I needed.

I ground a "V" into the steel plate so that the weld will have better penetration.

I used the little 110V welder to weld the 1/4" plate to the thin switch housing. My main concern was warping the tube when I was welding. I didn't want to stop midway through the weld to let it cool, so I welded the whole length of the bracket, then quickly put the whole tube in the hydraulic shop press (with pressure on the opposite side that was hot) until it cooled down.

WOW. Good Sorting!
Watching this one...