I'm thinking possible coolant in the oil? I don't know if I'm panicking, but thinking this could be ominous.
Thoughts?
⚠️ Last edited by fledermaus on UTC; edited 3 times
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Rode to work today as it was nearly 60. Got home and decided to do a bit of routine checking...tire pressure, oil....unscrewed the dipstick to wipe it, and noticed several spots that looked like little clots of cream (well, mucous at first blush). The oil itself appeared normal. Repeated the process a couple of times to see (hopefully) if it would come out normal. Nope.
I'm thinking possible coolant in the oil? I don't know if I'm panicking, but thinking this could be ominous. Thoughts? ⚠️ Last edited by fledermaus on UTC; edited 3 times
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I'd be draining all the oil out to inspect it and to see if sludge (oil/water emulsion) really is present. If there really is some, then a head gasket swap is in your very near future. That isn't nearly as daunting as it sounds - it's actually quite easy if you take your time and double-check you're doing it right by watching videos etc. Once you've done one, you won't be in the least bit put out doing another - on a different bike of course!
It *can* be possible that the head or cylinder itself is cracked, but that's unlikely. If so, you'd soon find out, and then a Malossi upgrade will be your reward. |
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I guess one can only hope you spilled some coffee when you had the dipstick out to remove the transmission cover.... |
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Madison Sully wrote: I guess one can only hope you spilled some coffee when you had the dipstick out to remove the transmission cover.... I'd wish it happened BEFORE I changed the oil. So guess I'm done riding until I get things sorted. So I guess draining and inspecting the oil is the next step. Is there anything else to test/inspect? Seeing as I had just replaced fluids, I'm wondering if I'd messed up something. I did bleed the coolant..... Entirely possible for it to be a random event. |
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drain it into a clean pan, look for anything white, off white, cream or milkshake looking.
that indicates water/coolant, so start poking around, because it has to come from somewhere. look under the bike near the exhaust, check the head and cylinder base and see if anything is damp looking. check your coolant level, see if it's down. hth -g
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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greasy125 wrote: drain it into a clean pan, look for anything white, off white, cream or milkshake looking. that indicates water/coolant, so start poking around, because it has to come from somewhere. look under the bike near the exhaust, check the head and cylinder base and see if anything is damp looking. check your coolant level, see if it's down. hth -g Dark now, and probably won't drain the oil until the weekend....keep you posted. |
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Coolant in oil.
Gasket engine cylinder or pump seals the refrigerant... You will need to clean the inside of the engine or dirty oil residue will seep into the rotating parts. |
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Any chance its just condensation from cold weather? Happens to cars all the time. People don't see it in scooters cause they don't tend to ride in cold weather.
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pokeyjoe wrote: Any chance its just condensation from cold weather? Happens to cars all the time. People don't see it in scooters cause they don't tend to ride in cold weather. |
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WEB-Tech wrote: pokeyjoe wrote: Any chance its just condensation from cold weather? Happens to cars all the time. People don't see it in scooters cause they don't tend to ride in cold weather. If it is condensation, clearly I'm not riding enough and need a longer route home! -took me forever to get back here because apparently a bunch of my passwords got compromised, including MV, changed them at home and forgot the flash drive that had the new ones on when I left for work. |
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How about lots of short rides in cold--engine never really warming up or not run at highway speeds?
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Yes John, that's what the guys are saying but also suggesting other common causes. I'm with you, it's probably the most likely thing. Needs more long rides to heat everything up properly and evap the water from the oil. Lets wait and see though.
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Attila wrote: Is there too much humidity in Fond du Lac? FWIW, Weather wise it's been hovering around freezing at night, cool days.... |
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Okay, finally the check-in.
Well, of course it's 2020. Decided to put it on the lift to get the center stand out of the way....rolled really hard for some reason....once on the lift, it was clear I had a major rear flat. I'd just checked when I checked the dipstick, and just possibly the valvestem got jammed or something....it's held air well for a couple of hours now... Anyway, back to the main issue....ran the engine a few minutes just to warm the oil a bit, drained the oil, expecting, well, hoping it would look normal. I don't think so. Definitely milky, cafe au lait kind of vibe. I did look around the engine as much as I could and could see nothing abnormal. So, thoughts? Maybe doesn't look *quite* that pale in real life, but close enough
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I mean the first picture was like, sorta OK it must be the lighting sort of thing.
That second picture though... Ooooooo nooooo. Mama don't like that sort of milkshake.
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Max6200 wrote: vespa cappuccino. Please keep us posted. This is sensationanal. |
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Most likely water pump or head gasket.
What's the underside of the head and cyl look like? Everything else gets expensive with the quickness. Good luck! -g |
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greasy125 wrote: Most likely water pump or head gasket. What's the underside of the head and cyl look like? Everything else gets expensive with the quickness. Good luck! -g I did remove the pump cover to drain the coolant, but don't see a connection with pump failure...but this is a bit beyond my basic knowledge.... Any way to differentiate the two? |
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Trying to decide my motivation to tackle this. I'm a bit weary of projects after a chaotic fall and can't address anything over the winter (working with cold fingers is above my pay scale). It's trying to decide between "can" and "want to." Then again I could sleep on it for a couple of months.....
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Great photos of a bad situation, LOL. Hope you can get it sorted in time to ride in the Spring. You have couple of back up bikes, right?
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Step back.
Take a deep breath and think about all the good things that you have. Family, security, a good life. This will, in the long run be a minor hickup in your life. The riding season is basically over for this year anyway. No pressure. Good luck.
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fledermaus wrote: I'm not sure what I'm really looking at. I tried to look around the engine as well as I could and didn't see anything suspicious. I did remove the pump cover to drain the coolant, but don't see a connection with pump failure...but this is a bit beyond my basic knowledge.... Any way to differentiate the two? here you want to look for any weeping, oily junk, coolant, or anything damp. if you have excessive white smoke on start up and while running. those would indicate headgasket, possibly basegasket if at the bottom. failed waterpump? that looks more like what you've got there. you can pressure test the system, but you'd have to devise a tool to do so. basically, when the internal seal fails, it dumps coolant into the engine (milkshake time). when the external seal fails it pukes out the weep hole. so, if it's not dribbling out of the weep hole and leaving a puddle, you can pretty much assume that it's an internal failure. so, if you don't have anything freaky-leaky uptop then, you're gonna need a waterpump amigo. your flushing of the coolant had no bearing or effect on this failure. anyway, if i was a bettin' man i'd roll dice on a waterpump. -g
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Madison Sully wrote: So if you wait for half an hour or so, does it separate into two layers? j/k nah, pretty much once it's emulsified it'll stay that way. -g |
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greasy125 wrote: anyway, if i was a bettin' man i'd roll dice on a waterpump. -g |
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Madison Sully wrote: Max6200 wrote: vespa cappuccino. Please keep us posted. This is sensationanal. |
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Dave - sounds like the collective consensus is a water pump. Seems like you have some Robot videos to watch, Haynes manual to consult, parts to procure, plan and execute!
Do you have a heated workspace? |
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I am having a hard time picturing how a leaking water pump seal would allow coolant into the engine oil. As I understand it, the impeller (9) is on a shaft (7), and on that shaft are two seals (8 ) and (6). One seals coolant in that system (8 ), the other seals oil into the engine (6). Between these two seals is a gap, and in that gap is the weep hole that allows visual queue when one of the seals leaks.
What I don't see is the path coolant would take into the engine this way, while at the same time *not* dripping out the weep hole. Are we to assume the weep hole is blocked? I do hope the water pump is the cause, as that seems the easiest fix (Piaggio part 8787565 for that whole cover, with water pump parts installed; looks like ~$165 including shipping). Or perhaps a $40 Scooterwest rebuild? |
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Though, if the gasket #14 leaked right at where the #14 is pointed (on the inboard side of that larger hole), that looks like a coolant duct coming off the water pump. I could see that being the problem.
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Greasy, thanks for your input! At least I have something to do today....and it's not ass-freezing cold in the garage (no, Barry, not heated. ).
Robert, is that a GTS diagram? A few things look off there, though I admit I don't spend a lot of time looking at drawings..... good questions though...discussing this at breakfast and realize how little I know about water pumps... head gaskets, well, a bit more. Seeing it's cold, and i'm old (good time to admit it), time to put it back up on the lift to look around. |
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fledermaus wrote: Greasy, thanks for your input! At least I have something to do today....and it's not ass-freezing cold in the garage (no, Barry, not heated. ). Robert, is that a GTS diagram? A few things look off there, though I admit I don't spend a lot of time looking at drawings..... good questions though...discussing this at breakfast and realize how little I know about water pumps... head gaskets, well, a bit more. Seeing it's cold, and i'm old (good time to admit it), time to put it back up on the lift to look around. |
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Madison Sully wrote: fledermaus wrote: Greasy, thanks for your input! At least I have something to do today....and it's not ass-freezing cold in the garage (no, Barry, not heated. ). Robert, is that a GTS diagram? A few things look off there, though I admit I don't spend a lot of time looking at drawings..... good questions though...discussing this at breakfast and realize how little I know about water pumps... head gaskets, well, a bit more. Seeing it's cold, and i'm old (good time to admit it), time to put it back up on the lift to look around. |
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fledermaus wrote: At least I have something to do today....and it's not ass-freezing cold in the garage (no, Barry, not heated. ). https://www.wish.com/product/5f9e16c5e7ba494cca18df38 No, flames do not come out of it - that's some idiot ad-man's idea to make it look inticing. These work extremely well, I have a different version in our camper-van (2kW, not all-enclosed). |
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Yep, I was going to suggest a salamander type heater may be the ticket for this situation!
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Okay, reporting in. First good news, whatever flattened my rear tire, it's holding air again...and a LOT easier to push around.
I checked the engine from every possible angle, no drips anywhere. Was a bit dirty on top and smeary to the touch, but then I think it may have gotten a bit messy with bleeding the coolant a couple of weeks back. Started the engine to see if there was anything from the exhaust, but nothing visible at all. So not sure where that leaves me.... though I guess pushes me towards water pump.... |
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[quote="jimc"]
fledermaus wrote: Get yourself a cheapo CDH - Chinese Diesel Heater: https://www.wish.com/product/5f9e16c5e7ba494cca18df38 No, flames do not come out of it - that's some idiot ad-man's idea to make it look inticing. Good choice if I decide to have at the scooter yet this year.... ⚠️ Last edited by fledermaus on UTC; edited 1 time
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