Modern Vespa

This is pre-2023 models

I have a Supertech that I purchased Oct / 2019 in Australia. It's VIN is RP8M45715 with an M45MM engine and CM291706 (32M4G1.F06) ecu. I am confused that nowhere on the internet can I find this engine listed, all the HPE engines are listed as MA36M. What is the difference between the M45MM and the MA36M - why the different number?

edit: my model is EVGSHYNAU6

edit: decoding the ECE e-mark sticker on my scoot (photo below)
E9 spain lol
41R-041139 noise
78R-031171 brakes
39R-001366 speedometer and odometer


edit: current lists i've assembed (circa May 2022)

HPE 300 Engines
E3/E4
MA36M ECMA/NAFTA E4
M4A36M ECMA/NAFTA E4
M45MM APAC E3/4 (still current circa April 2023)
M45RM Sei Giorni E4
M45TM APAC GTS or APAC Sei Giorni? E4
E5
MD31M ECMA E5

HPE 300 ECUs (seems some have and extra 5/45 suffix when looking in the pdf vs sticker on the original part in the bike)
E3/E4
CM291701 GTS E4 (32M4G1.F01)
CM291703 MP3 300 E4
CM291704/CM2917045 Supertech (& GTS 75th?) E4 ECMA/NAFTA (32M4G1.F04)
CM291706/CM2917065 Supertech (& GTS 75th?) E3?/E4 APAC (32M4G1.F06) (still current circa April 2023)
CM291707/CM2917075 Sei Giorni E4
CM291708 GTS E3 APAC (.F08) (circa April 2023)
CM291712 Sei Giorni APAC (ref https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2021/MC-10201160-0001.pdf)
E5
CM316201 GTS & Sei Giorni E5 ECMA
CM316202/CM31620245 Supertech E5 ECMA
CM316204/CM31620445 ? have XDF and BIN, claim it is a gts300? might be gtv?
CM316206/CM31620645 MP3 300 E5 ECMA
CM316207/CM31620745 BV 300 E5 ECMA
CM316217 GTS '2023'. note to self: it seems early CM316217 are manufactured in late 2022 and still "/C" but I think during 2023 they became "/D"
CM316221 GTV 2023 (from turkey)?

HPE 300 Wiring harnesses
E4
1D002581 GTS E4 ECMA
1D002583 Supertech E4 ECMA
1D002585 GTS E4 NAFTA
1D002587 Supertech E4 NAFTA
1D002919 Sei Giorni E4 ECMA
1D002990 Sei Giorni E4 NAFTA
and maybe 1D003018 for E3/E4 GTS 75th in APAC only? Maybe also APAC supertech?
E5
1D003330 GTS E5 ECMA
1D003332 Sei Giorni E5 ECMA
1D003587 Supertech E5 ECMA


crosslinks:
Spare Parts catalogue for Asia/Pacific APAC GTS HPE E3/E4
MP3 HPE 300 vs GTS HPE 300 hp power specs

Probably the change is for a new Euro 5 model; as the engine system has been changed to meet the newer standards.

It's been hard to find anything out about them other than they have less power ... and it appears that is the model which is being shipped. Not the older 2019 HPE version.

It's an Oct / 2019 bike (post updated).

Interestingly the only mention i can find via Google is shipping info for March 2020 of M45MM engines being shipped from Italy to Vietnam which is where my bike is assembled (hence the RP8M vin) see https://www.vietnamtrades.com/vietnam-import-data/motorcycle/hs-code-84073320.html

All of the HPE engines right from the start are euro 5 and all of them produce the same power output. I doubt the models sent to Australia are any different. Although there may have been some updates. That doesn't mean any major changes have happened. Vin and engine numbers often reflect many things. The fact you cannot find much in the way of reference to your engine number is not something to be concerned about. You can of course obtain any parts you need by quoting your engine number to your dealer should you need to do so. If after market suppliers don't list it go to the Vespa site. It won't be long before you find your engine number everywhere.

it's been over 12 months.

i'm not concerned, just curious. I have already bought some after market things with no issues, I just choose MA36M or HPE on retailers websites.

I entered my VIN into http://static.piaggio.com/recall/form-piaggio_en.html

It said my bike is a VESPA GTS 300 E3 CONNECT AU GREY ' 19

'CONNECT': sounds like an alternative name for Supertech

'AU GREY '19': correct

'GTS 300 E3': sounds like a Euro 3 ... but I have an HPE which is people say is a Euro 4 (or 5)!

Edit: checked my exhaust and it says SM49 VESM450278 which is apparently a Euro 3 exhaust according to German forums? see https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https://vespaforum.de/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D16%26t%3D25969%26start%3D15&prev=search&pto=aue

Last I heard was the exhaust is the same on your bike (which is Euro5 compliant) as the Euro 3/4 bikes. I'm retired now from the mc trade so don't have access in quite the same way to info. However, I wouldn't worry about it seeing stuff that might indicate yours is not Euro5. Many countries were selling Euro5 bikes early on in 2019. That's the way it works in most parts of the world when a change to emissions regs is about to happen. Manufacturers have to prepare early and they get the new bikes out there as soon as they can, subject to existing stocks in any given country.

Following that link, I get pretty much the same info in both English and Italian:

VESPA GTS 300 4T SuperSp.BIANC MY19 HPE

No mention of exhaust or emission standard. My bike was manufactured in November 2020, bought it in Jan 2021.
Had few minutes free this arvo so called the NZ disti who stated the HPE bikes are both Euro 3 and Euro 4 certified (depending on which Asia Pac market region, they will label them accordingly, some countries require Euro 4 some are ok with Euro 3) and that they are Euro 5 ready. He said Piaggio does not produce different HPE Euro specc'ed engines and that they're the same for all markets and factories, including Vietnam one.
This people have been in the game for over 20 years so I'll go with what they say.

When asked about aftermarket exhaust they said I can use either Euro3, 4 or 5 class exhausts as the engine will support and be compatible with all of them.

Cheers.

PART 1
Euro 4 vs Euro 5
It is well understood on european forums such as https://vespaforum.de/ that these are different. Here's some of the differences


1a Testing on dynos has apparently been done and shows a small drop in the euro5


1b Sites selling parts such as https://www.sip-scootershop.com/ and https://www.malossi.com/ list the HPE Euro 4 and HPE Euro5 separately. They also list the engine for the E4 as MA36M and for the E5 as MD31M and different VIN prefixes


1c A big and obvious difference is the Exhaust. The E4 looks just like the classic GTS exhaust. the E5 has a catalytic in the header directly after the O2 lambda sensor and also has a join where the header/mid pipe meets the silencer instead of right up near the lambda. see links below for diagrams

2021 HPE in the US
Vespa GTS 300 HPE Super ABS E4 2019-2021 (NAFTA)
https://www.easyparts.nl/explodedview/Genuine-parts-Vespa-GTS-300-HPE-Super-ABS-E4-2019-2021-(NAFTA)-Exhaust-m30994-d224702

2021 HPE in Europe
Vespa GTS 300 HPE Super ABS E5 2020-2021 (EMEA)
https://www.easyparts.nl/explodedview/Genuine-parts-Vespa-GTS-300-HPE-Super-ABS-E5-2020-2021-(EMEA)-Exhaust-m32427-d234838

PART 2
Some differences with my Supertech ...

basic info:
* made in October 2019 according to the importers label.
* purchased end of October 2019 in Melbourne AUS
* assembled in Vietnam, engine from Italy
* see top of this thread for VIN prefix etc
* cosmetic differences to the ECMA and NAFTA 2019 Supertech for example my scoot has the 'new' wheel design where as they didn't get it for another year. (yes I know this is not relevant, just listing it for the heck of it)

2a a big visible difference to the european (ECMA) and north american (NAFTA) HPEs is the air box, air filter, air intake. ECMA&NAFTA HPEs have box and filter pretty much like the classic GTS (might be small differences inside the box - something about pipe length).
All the HPEs I've seen here in Aus have a corrugated paper filter instead of foam and a snorkel that comes out at the seat hinge. see https://www.parts-piaggio.com/vespa-scooters/125-VESPA-SCOOTER/GTS/2018/Vespa-GTS-Super-125-4T-3V-iGet-ABS-E3/Engine/Air-filter/1319/0/1012/2900

2b The printed manual says its Euro 3

2c The sticker under the seat says E3 (not the silver sticker. See comment with photo a few posts down)

2d Entering my VIN in to http://recall.piaggiogroup.com/ (have to select Italian. English doesn't mention E3 or 4 or 5) gives the follow VESPA GTS 300 E3 CONNECT AU GRIGIO 19

2e Searching the internet my engine number M45MM (which is different to the ones mentioned in Part 1!) gives a couple of sites listing the shipping info of the engines being sent from Italy to Vietnam. These lists say E3. sample https://www.vietnamtrades.com/vietnam-import-data/hs-code-84073320/unit-piece_2fpcs.html

2f The number on my exhaust is SM49 VESM450278 (before I replaced it with an Arrow HPE Euro4). Searching the web says this was used on old GTS ... maybe unchanged in the Euro4 HPE sold in Europe? who knows.

interesting that you don't get any mention of E3,4,5.

EDIT: also interesting that you said your bike is Nov/2020 yet that shows MY19 ... see my discussion above in part 1c about the change in exhaust between E4 and E5.


Anyway please read my big two comments directly above.

I wouldn't read much into E3 sticker or stamps, that may or may not mean Euro 3. Mine states E8.

Air filter got me intrigued so opened mine, it's foam not corrugated paper, no 'snorkel' coming out of seat hinge either. My manual states both Euro 3 and Euro 4 under Emission Compliance. For the Exhaust Silencer it states: Absorption-type exhaust silencer with a 3-way catalytic converter and lambda probe.

For engine type and model it states M45TM.

So yeah, there are few difference between my Nov 2020 HPE Super Sport and your 2019 HPE Supertech. But since there aren't exact and solid empirical evidences on which is which in terms of emission certs, I will still go with the distributor's recommendation. According to them we shouldn't be concerned with HPE engines being Euro3, 4 or 5, but the different type of exhausts they install in the factory to meet certain emission standards and requirements.

They are all replaceable and interchangeable (in their own words) and the only bit one should be concerned with is breaking a law in those countries with strict emission standards like Europe, so installing for example a Euro4 Akrapovic onto a 2021 Euro5 HPE Vespa would be a no-no from a legal point of view, not the issue with performance or compatibility.

Photo please

You don't believe me? Go away mate...

I think you have become an experts on this steelbytes. However, I think babola is quite right about the E8 sticker. and the other stuff he is saying. I've actually seen E6 listed on a bike here in the UK at a dealers showroom. What's that about!

Where was the E6 listed? In what context on what sticker? I'm really curious

Under the seat attached to the right side bodywork silver (quite shiny) plate that is self adhesive with engine number, paint code and other information about country where it's been built. Just prior to the engine number there was an e6 followed by the engine number. Probably not relevant to the conversation but my 2016 Italian built bike has e3 before the engine number. My bike is actually a euro3 bike though. But thinking this 'e' business might not denote the emissions classification as there is not an e6 or e8 euro classification for bikes yet. I've also seen a 2018 euro4 bike with the 'e3' designation prior to the engine number. Interesting!

first photo attached:
that's not what I was talking about when I said in 2c that there was an E3 under the seat. I'm betting babola was also talking about that silver sticker. mine is E9 on that sticker

second photo attached:
the E3 I was talking about is on a sticker on the underside of the seat itself. it has almost the same text on it as I get when I entered my vin into piaggios website.

EVGSHYNAU6

Hmm...that's even more interesting! Yes I think my sticker looks a bit more technical with more information on it than your one with the E9 on it but is probably the one you are referring to. So that's no help really is it. I see the issue more clearly now. I'll try and have a dig around with some of my ex-colleagues who work on these bikes regularly.

Just a quick note:

Was in the dealer today and checked both a 75th gts and Supertech brand new and both still have the snorkel airbox. Also checked under the seat on the 75 and didn't see any e3/4/5 at a quick check

[quote="steelbytes"]
PART 1
Euro 4 vs Euro 5
It is well understood on european forums such as https://vespaforum.de/ that these are different. Here's some of the differences


1a Testing on dynos has apparently been done and shows a small drop in the euro5


I have been asking and looking for an answer to this question: what's the difference in power distribution between the HPE euro 4 and euro 5 without any answer till Steelbytes came with it!
Even on those great forum I was answered no difference as the hpe is euro 5 from launch. Which is untrue as euro5 ready doesn't mean at all that it is already.
Another modification -after the exhaust- is the valves settings as I saw on my mech service book. Makes sense.

SteelBytes I couldn't access the right page on the German forum. Could you please provide us with the dyno result.
All, with no exception but our Vespa, motorcycles moving from euro 4 to euro 5, saw some changes in torque and power. Usually more torque lower less power at higher rpm.
Sometimes an cc increase compensated for it.
In the case of our Vespas Piaggio presented them as absolutely identical per the figures. Even Robot doesn't mention any change. And then you came

please note that the purpose of my post was not about performance, rather I was demonstrating that there are multiple different versions of the HPE.

I was careful to use the word "apparently" when I wrote that. ie, I have seen it claimed.

piaggio changed the exhaust and reduced emissions. they did not add cc like you discuss other bikes did. such changes can quiet reasonably be expected to affect performance (albeit possibly a tiny amount).

here's one of the discussions on it which included a mechanic dyno testing and getting a tiny but measurable difference. possibly within the range of manufacturing tolerances?. https://www-vespaforum-de.translate.goog/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=54133&sid=cb4f4f093fa0df305d13a01886e8eee8&_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

Robot (i'm a fan) does know a lot, but he doesn't know all as he specialises in the American Vespas not all global Vespas. eg he doesn't appear to know about the euro3 hpe with different airbox sold here in australia.

Thanks a lot. The german forum is much useful. And yes as usual the new regulation = loss of performance. So the euro 4 hpe was the most powerful Vespa ever. The euro 5 looses up to 2hp. When Vespa claiming same figures for both 😡

Crazy question...and sorry to bring this thread back from the dead...

Looking to throw an aftermarket exhaust on my 2020 GTS Supersport HPE and one thing that's tripping me up is the difference between engine code MA36M (Euro) and M4A36M (NAFTA)...they look similar, but when I assume things are compatible, I usually get burned.

It's a Polini exhaust and the seller (Italian retailer) is saying it's good for MA36M...but...is it good for M4A36M...hmm...

a better thread of mine to resurrect for differences in exhausts woul have been Euro5 GTS HPE has slip-on Exhaust and Catalytic in manifold?

anyway the quick answer for you is if you check polini's website you'll find the 190.0073/K or 190.0073 is suitable for the M4A36M which is an E4. just don't buy anything marked E5 and you'll be fine.

Thank you!!! Ordered and feel confident with your help!