Modern Vespa

This is the story of two Allstate scooters - A Blue 62 - three speed and a Red 64 - four speed.

They became fast friends - racing around a sleepy coastal town like they own the joint, buzzing through the neighborhoods with nary a care, except for the illusive 60 mph on the 8 inch rubber they rolled on.

60 was an impossibility, even on the biggest downhill, the wind resistance was enough to keep them in the high 40s, but no faster.

Until.....

Along comes the Pinasco 177cc kit - plug and play they say - speeds previously unheard of they say - the front end will become light they say....and they were right!

The VNB2 (B-62) got this upgrade many moons back and has been ripping it up, with the VNB5 (Rocket) waiting patiently for the same.

Finally the day came, and it was promising, for about 5 minutes. Then screeeeeeecccchhhhhhhh...and nothing. Strange wristpin conrod meltdown robbed Rocket of it's run in the sun with B-62.

Days before B-62 went to shift into third and....no third....cables fine..just no third. And it's been leaking oil, spongy feel in the kick start, etc.

So, since both old machines are down, it seems like the perfect time to rebuild these friends back to their old glory and then some.

The plan is to disassemble both engines, inspect, order parts, then rebuild both engines simultaneously. This is the thread where these two machines will get past the illusive and coveted milestone - 60 mph on 8s or the 60/8 club.

First up - Rocket's rocket removal.....

Subscribed.
My only hope - you can draw this out between now and Xmas.
Love!

I've got my VBA cracked open again yesterday. Perfect timing.

So both engines are on the bench. Tomorrow Chris is coming over and we'll pressure wash both engines, then disassemble.

Double Trouble looking good guys! Following

Aye good luck.

Should keep you busy for a minute or two, looks like fun. Working on cleaning out my garage so I can.work.on the scooter. That and clean up the boxes that weren't unpacked 10 years ago.

Hot coffee, good music and wrenching on scoots with a friend. Doesn't get much better than that.

Oh yeah...A very good day indeed. We managed to pressure wash both engines, split both cases down to just the cases, AND go for a little ride and have tacos for Taco Tuesday! Fantastic day and great progress.

The cool thing is if we were in doubt, we could try it on the other case. The VNB5 case came apart much easier than the VNB2.

BUT, we did need to do a consult call to the one and only V oodoo. We didn't want to hammer on the axle too hard, but we got over that and with a couple good whacks, the axle and gears came out with no issue.

We put everything in separate bins, and then into big bins for each engine.

The next steps are:
- Chris is going to use the parts washer on the cases.
- We need to examine and clean all the internals. This'll take some time.
- Make a list of what each engine needs
- Place an order for the parts
- Reassemble

I think I'm gonna pull apart the VNB2 clutch, clean, and see what's what, after I clean up the hurricane disaster we created from splitting the two engines.

bold move cotton. but i appreciate the chutzpah. game on my man!

-g

Looks like good times all around! I love a good wrenching day Keep up the good work and good luck!

Good times, good times ...

Two peas in a pod.

That is so great... I really envy you guys!

Decided on what parts are going into each engine? If B52 is staying as 3 gear, it will need to be tuned differently. Rocket would suit a 60mm crank more. B52 will really need variable ignition timing. Plenty of choices to be made, if they haven't been already.
Two rebuilds that only look the same.

Thanks guys!

LuckyBear - come on over, but it might be a bit cold for you!

Greasy - I've got my blindfold on! Let the games begin. Ha!

Jack - A couple of questions:

- Why variable ignition timing on the three speed? I put a Vape static AC Electronic Ignition kit on it before the 177 kit.

- Tuned differently? Hmmm. The final gear is the same as the 4 speed. I can see wanting enough grunt down low because of the lack of the other low gear. What am I missing? Are you talking about tuning it to have a power band at a certain rpm?

- What about just opening up the intake a few degrees and matching the carb box to the intake? I can see where there is a little to be gained there.

- IDK about going 60mm on Rocket and turning it into a, well, rocket. Gotta add a packer, lower the exhaust, grind the head, yadda, yadda. I'm not really up for that kind of tuning. I'm in the mindset of more Plug and Play for these builds.

The goal is to have two reliable, robust engines when done that can keep up with town traffic, which around here is about 45~50 mph consistent. And if they can break the 60 on 8s barrier for fun on the rare occasion, perfect.

We haven't made any choices, except to keep the above premise in mind - Reliably, robustness, 45-50 mph consistent. The power on B-62 with the 177 kit was fantastic, and that was with everything stock.

OK, I've been rambling a bit, spurred on by Jack's questions, which just goes to show we need to nail down which way to go with these builds, and there are options, more options than we need.

If anybody else has any input, we'd sure like to hear it.

And Jack - many thanks for throwing your knowledge out there for us to benefit from!

Thanks!

-The goal is to have two reliable, robust engines when done that can keep up with town traffic, which around here is about 45~50 mph consistent. And if they can break the 60 on 8s barrier for fun on the rare occasion, perfect.-


same goal I have on my 58 Allstate.

A Dickensian story if I've ever seen one.
Orphans stranded but with hope!

Looks like some good healthy days in a rather cool setting - so to speak.

Like!

Yeah, I'm a Native Californian so I don't go out in the cold. My Winter Wardrobe is Dark Shorts.

LuckyBear

I had a few minutes today (OK, maybe 30) and wiped down the tools and got the operating table cleaned off.

I took a quick look at the kickstart on the VNB2 - it looks like someone cut a groove in the end of it. And it always has had this weird spongy feel until it kicks over, like something is bending or the teeth are slipping, which isn't the case.

The fully splined stuff costs twice as much (and a little more) than the current design, so I may just update both the lever and kickstart quadrant. I'm going to check the shaft first and make sure it's not bent. Hmmm...

And I shaved down my only 11mm wrench to fit on the end of the gear thingy so I can replace the shifting cross. Left hand threads if I remember correctly.

Guessing it was 1/2 stripped - and someone cut the slot to allow some form of key to be used to create an interference fit with the kick starter.
Perhaps later removed.
Splines seen better days.
A man will do desperate things not to split the cases.

New quadrant in order!
Nice to find now while you are figuring out your parts list.
Or maybe Voodoo has a box of them somewhere with good splines?

subscribed - eagerly awaiting your parts choices...

Really need the existing spec of each (carb, exhaust, ratios) to make any more informed suggestions. Variable timing effectively just gives more mid range. This is exactly what's needed for 3 gears. Even stock set ups go better with variable timing.

Putting in a 60mm crank also allows you to lower the cylinder and use a head gasket. Gives you choices, where a 57mm has none.
When I talk about touring tuning, it's a set up that will do crusing speed uphill in top gear comfortably. Not all tuning is about max speed and rpm. I expect not slowing down on hills would be nice, especially on the 3 speed, where dropping to 2nd gear on the highway is not going to be such elegant cruising.

I agree with the touring and 60mm crankshaft if its in the budget. If you haven't, with everything torn apart, sit down and measure timings and see where you're at. With my previous motor, a 57 mm crankshaft left me with zero options to get good squish and compression numbers. I was running no head gasket, a head with zero squish, and a very thin base gasket to get good compression ratios and squish numbers. A 60 mm crankshaft would have let me move the cylinder up and down a few mm to adjust cylinder timings.

This is on a P200, but the same principles still apply.

https://youtu.be/QUJ9QSi7tJU

Thanks for the reply Jack (and Christopher!)

Both engines will have the:
Pinasco 2 port,
177cc kit,
electronic ignition,
20/20 carb (2.0mm drilled float bowl on both),
SR-150 pipe (from ScooterMercato).

Both engines were 125s, and have the same final gear, race tested on the outskirts of town - heh heh. 45 mph is all they had in them.

I installed the 177 kit on B-62 (the three speed), with a bushing conrod, and rode it hard and fast, until it started leaking oil and other issues were presenting themselves.

Both engines have NEVER been opened, as far as we know, and can tell, and we knew that they would need it soon.

When we installed the 177 kit on Rocket (the 4 speed), it was all high-5's for about 5 minutes then it made a tight noise and stopped, which was the conrod bushing chewing on the wrist pin.

Or let me put it the way Chris described it "The Thrill of Victory.....and the Agony of Defeat". Yes, I felt like that guy on the long jump....

I got away with it on B-62. Not so much on Rocket.

The power that B-62 had is going to be plenty adequate for anything we're going to do with these townies. No 200 mile journeys, etc., just rides around town.

We've already ordered parts and are awaiting the orders - should be here by the end of next week.

In the meantime, Chris took the cases to work and put them in the parts cleaner, and we'll get things taken apart and inspected. (clutches, and Cush drives, gears, shift selectors, etc.

When the cases get back here we'll look at matching the carb boxes to the cases, and opening up the inputs a bit. And maybe the input duration a few degrees? Oh, and I'll get the timings of the 177 cylinder. I took them earlier when I put the 177 kit in B-62.

Thanks for the input guys. More to come when we get more done.

Would assume you've ordered 57mm cranks for both already.

If you have static electronic ignition, then an Australian Kytronic would be a nice addition.
https://www.kytronik.com/products/smart-booster2016-2

Plenty can be done with those cylinders. There's more torque hiding in there. Could just tune both the same, then it would be a fair race. How much squish clearance built in the head?

Just curious. Does that kytronic replace the ignition coil, or do you add it? Just trying to understand. I may be completely off but I'm interested and really like this thread.

Your favorite noobie.

A kytronIk smart booster doesn't replace anything. It goes in series between the stator and ignition. It intercepts the stator signal, and puts out one of its own at a different time. You set your fixed timing on the stator at says 24° and set the smart booster to 6° retard and it will retard to 18° over a preprogrammed rpm range that you select.


https://www.kytronik.com/products/smart-booster2016-2

NICE - thank you for this info. I didn't know anything like this existed. Ahhh, you know what we're going to do with these little terrors. His may be named Rocket, but we'll see who beats who. ha!

And I have no idea how much squish is built into the head. I'll see if I can look it up. I did clean up the exhaust port a bit and relieve the edges but that's it with the cylinders. I'm interested what to do with the cylinders as well as the intake and rotary pad duration....

Thanks again Jack - your knowledge is greatly appreciated! [/url]

qas - see where you are going with this and it suspect they will be terrific for your target.

Little extra crank timing with the Pinasco - check.
Cylinder known for good torquey behavior - check.
Fun to ride and reliable - check check.

Suspect there is some optimization around inlet opening/carb/exhaust box options. Apologies if I missed. Do you already know what you wanna do/ Has Jack offered up some ideas? At any point will you be converting a shovel in to some amazing componentry?!

Thanks CM2 -
First question: Sort of - flow the carb/carb box/inlet and open the duration of the inlet a bit.

Second question: Yes, but when all the components land here and we're ready to dremel away, hopefully more advice will be bestowed upon us. Like a Christmas Miracle.

Third Question: Ha! Probably not - but maybe in the future! This is all about getting these babies cleaned up, sealed up, tuned up and back on the road. We might run some weed whacker line through the tunnels for future wiring, like a CHT gauge, but we'll see...

Ultimate townie 3 speed.
Keeps up with traffic with ease.
The Mary Tyler More of Florence: Somehow both the girl next door sexy and a strong streak of independence. Don't know how you can go wrong.
Love it.

Those kickstarter gears are supposed to have flat teeth. Though the gear teeth can get too worn out. They can also get worn on their ID where is spins on the christmas tree. You would probably need a new gear since it looks like the engaging teeth look to be rounded off quite a bit.

Thanks WhoDat - New ones are on their way, or should be sometime next week. I love this! Exactly what I'm going for.

Coming on nicely. We know who's is the cleaner set of casings.

Cranks are shiny and flowed. Not dissimilar to what's in my 221. The one that bent and is now straight again. The cut should be quite conservative, which is great. Aiming for 190 degrees on the inlet. 125/65. See how they measure up.

A picture of the head and lip measurement will help. Can determine cylinder porting when we know how the squish will end up. Will only be some mild sanding but it will matter.

Suggest you both buy a Cosa banded clutch each. Those six spring clutches will not be strong enough in the long term. Last forever with low power but those kits will eat them for breakfast.

MMM, fried clutch plate surprise, haven't had that dish yet. Heard it comes with burnt oil as a sauce.

Thanks Jack. Yes, big time - B-62 is a dirty, dirty girl....That's what Chris called her anyway. Will do. Sometime next week we're getting together to do some dremelling! Next week, I'll get the measurements Thanks again! Ha! We went with standard clutch hardware, so we'll need to take it easy until the new year when we "upgrade"....

We've got some questions, on reassembly, while we're waiting on parts. I've seen vids and heard of things done the ways I'm going to mention. Let me list them below:

1) Installing the seals. Dry? Oil? Red Loctite?
2) Installing the bearings: Dry? Oil?
3) Mating cases - leave the gasket: Dry? Oil? Grease? Gasketseal?
4) Cylinder Base gasket: Dry? Grease? Gasket seal?

I'll answer the above questions myself (subject to change):
1) Red Loctite
2) Oil
3) Grease
4) Gasket seal

My answers are subject to change depending on the brain trust's answers. We just want to have the best chance of success when we rebuild. I'm hearing Steve Austin's bionic sound effects while I type this. ha! "We Can Rebuild!"....

Thanks everyone!

1) Installing the seals. O Ring Lube
2) Installing the bearings: Assembly Lube
3) Mating cases: Coat gasket with Silicone RTV
4) Cylinder Base gasket: Dry

You asked... But I actually don't think there is a wrong suggestion in your lists. They would all work.

On suggestions I used gasket seal on both 3 and 4. Gasket seal on 3 was also globbed on extra thick in the thin spot between the crankshaft area and the gearbox as FMP suggests to prevent oil sucker. Although it doesn't look like you have to worry about that thin mating spot on your cases!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p9Nbgac5Go