Modern Vespa

Here's what I do.
1) Installing the seals. Loctite 603
2) Installing the bearings: assembly oil, or loctite 603
3) Mating cases - leave the gasket dry
4) Cylinder Base gasket: suitable rtv sealer

Subscribed and eagerly attending. After the last ride on Birdsnest's VNB, the 60/8 club will have 2 new members, I am sure. Ludicrous speed/acceleration awaits you!

my picks
1) grease or oil on seal mating surface
2) grease on moving parts
3) grease or hylomar
4) motoseal

I'm with sdjohn. Motoseal the case gasket if the mating surfaces are iffy.

poidog: glad to see another convert. Keeping an eye out for a 60/8 project for you.

agreed - if the sealing surfaces are sketchy on the case I'd totally hit it with motoseal as well. that stuff is magic.

Hey, thank you guys! This is just the info we were hoping for. It arms us with a bit of knowledge on how everyone else does it.

Chatis - You're probably right!

Swiss - thanks for the FreakMoped Vid. I haven't watched it yet, but will.

Jack - leave the case gasket dry - I've been wondering about this one and the benefits it has, like allowing reopening of the cases to be easy.

SDJohn & SoCalGuy - Motoseal is ordered and on it's way. Thanks! Better to have it here on sight then not and realize the cases need it.

And we haven't checked the space in the gear cluster. Gotta watch Robot's 125 rebuild to see how that's done and what the tolerance should be.

Hopefully parts will be coming by the end of the week. In the meantime we can remove the existing engine buffers/mounts and port the input to match the carb box on both cases. Coming up soon!


We're gonna recreate this picture with the Allstates this spring :)

One good turn deserves another...
Greasy - that's a magic trick - have struggled with those damn rotor allen heads...

General - I have old cases - so just didn't trust building without motoseal. It makes it air tight - no question - but is a pain in the ass if you have to re-open - which I did about 4 times fitting mine.

Magic trick I learned: use 3m bristle disc - use the yellow.
Put in a drill or air tool - will not damage the aluminum - but just eats the motoseal.
Saw it on YouTube with some classic Yamaha cases - so felt safe trying.
Have now used it 2 dozen times - anywhere I have motoseal on aluminum.
Drink a cup of tea and remove it all with ease.

Napa had em - and so did auto zone. About $10 apiece and they last forever as little as we use it for our needs.

https://www.amazon.com/Goodson-3M-Roloc-Bristle-Disc/dp/B0009RMAFM/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=3m+roll+bristle+disc+yellow&qid=1608009677&s=automotive&sr=1-1

Excellent! Thanks for the tip!

Well as you mention it, there are many benefits of not using any sealer. If you don't have casings that have been levered open with a rusty spoon. Then sealer is not needed. When sealer is the only way its fairly obvious.
Splitting with a dry gasket is benefit enough. Nothing to clean up.
Caution though, sealer can actually make them leak. There is no gasket sealer anywhere that will endure constant contact with petrol. Resistant doesn't mean petrol proof. Over time any sealer will erode in petrol. Too much sealer actually causes the oil sucker problem on P cases, as the gasket can float away from the lip as they are tightened.
If you split your engine every year or two and pressure test them, then do what makes you happy but otherwise, I say, no sealer on any constant petrol areas.

Excellent! Thanks Jack!

The Vespa service manual says to use "seal paste" on the case gasket. I think putting it on dry might be asking for problems.

Thanks SCG - Chris and I are "discussing" the various ways. We may put the cases together differently, just for grins.

And speaking of that, we got together and worked cleaning and inspecting the pile of parts. While cleaning was going on, FedEx arrived with parts (thanks David)

We then installed the new shifting cross, clutch internals (plates, brass bushing, brass washer), and took apart the Cush drive for B62. Pain in the ass without a drill press, but we managed fine. Chris is taking his with him and doing it on his end.

Oh, and the clutch on B62 takes a smaller brass bushing, and brass washer. Bummer. Might be time for a new clutch for B62 afterall. I just used the old brass bushing for now, with the new plates and springs.

We've still got a bunch to do, and more parts to get, but at least the reassembly process has begun! Woohooo!

Oh, and we had to knock off early to go for a ride, naturally. Just a quick spin to the jetty overlook and the rowdy ocean. It's the rainy season, so 52 degrees and wet roads is the norm at this time of year, but we're both used to it, so no biggy. Ruby and Olive are not trailer queens, but made to ride, rain or shine!


Old vs New. Big difference...

Gears cleaned, measured, inspected, new crosses (blue loctite), and ready to go. I forgot to get pics of the clutches.

Parts! Wooohooo!

Ruby and Olive at the Jetty overlook

Ruby, Chris, and Olive at the ocean!

You guys are making good progress! Bite by Bite! Love it

That overlook shot looks like it is worth the ride!

Nice progress on your builds.

Thanks GL - slow and steady It's a cool spot that most locals don't even know about - every time I'm up that way on Rhododendron Road I check it out and get a feel for the conditions of the ocean and river mouth. You never know around here - sometimes very calm, sometimes super rough...

I got B-62s triple ring Christmas tree put together yesterday. The old springs looked fine, but since I had the kit I replaced them I installed the new ones. It wasn't very difficult, just drilling out the old rivets without a drill press was a pain in the ass, but not impossible, so it's done. Now all's that is needed is install the bearing in the bottom and the needle bearings, of course....

ScootNewb (Chris) took his with him and is doing the same.

Oh, and here is something interesting. The big gear on the three speed can be installed in either direction. The space is the same thickness on both sides. Also, it likes a specific rotation between the six options. It lived that way for 58 years and wore together in a certain way, so that's how I put it back.


The cush drive, with the new kit, all cleaned up and ready to go back together.

Squishing in springs, and centering them

Hammering flat the rivets

Well, made a little progress today. I installed the rear shock rubber and did some flowing the carb box to the case. Which brings me to a couple of questions:

1) I want to open the inlet up a bit like an O-tune on a P200. I don't know how much I should do though. I've got some pictures of the side I think I need to grind. Is this correct? and also, how many mm's should I cut it back to?

2) I have no idea the squish for this Pinasco 2-port, 177 kit is. Does anybody know this?

The power with just the 177 kit was plenty so we'd probably be fine just flowing the carb box to the inlet, but while we're here...might as well open up the inlet a bit. How much is the question, and which side to dremel? The furthest away from the cylinder? My finger in the pic below is the side "I think" I should be grinding, but not sure...

Also, cut a chunk out of a sheet of steel to make installing the crank bearings possible. And there were a couple of wear marks on the oil channel inside the clutch cover so I sanded it down a bit.

Chris is coming over tomorrow and maybe we'll get to start putting in seals and bearings, provided we get the grinding finished.


Making scribe lines in the case, and the carb box.

Here is a view on the bottom of the carb box and what needs to be removed

Carb box and inlet flowed

I'm assuming I need to open up this side of the inlet - but how far?

This is a view of the inlet from the top.

Wear marks from clutch on the clutch cover....

That's better...

Nice rotary pad for an old engine. Someone has already had a go at cutting that, so don't feel too guilty.
Looking for about 190 degrees on what you are building. Opens 125 degrees before and closes 65 degrees after TDC.
Loose fit the crank with a degree wheel. Set TDC as zero. Rest is easy.

Scott, in case you or others following along don't already know, an old bearing comes in handy here. Grind the inner and outer diameters so it slips on and off the crank and in and out of the case easily. Viola... homemade dummy bearing. Easy and helpful for measuring openings.

Thank you Jack - just the info I was looking for. And it was me that already started on the inlet. The inlet is fairly square on these cases so I figured rounding it out may help, since I had to remove material for the carb box and case connection.

SCG - Excellent tip - thank you! I'll get on grinding one of the old bearings down!

Today is going to be an exciting day!

qas -
You can open up the inlet in both directions.
There are of course some calculations you can do - but frankly - more open is more open - so if you aren't getting really aggressive - then I wouldn't fret doing the calcs.

Below - from my experience.

At the Inlet In side - thats where you have your finger pointing - a safe/conservative opening would be to pull it back to about the middle of the carb stud. Shape it with a round tip bullet point. Check for air leak through your carb stud hole after - and if you spring one - fill bottom with JB weld. Carb stud does not go to bottom of this hole so there is room for fixes if you break through when porting the inlet.
That said - you likely wont.

On the Inlet Out side - the one that is nearer the cylinder - that can come forward a bit too. Since there is a case stud in your way - that is more a shaping than a large elongation - but you can bring the tip of it about 1/4" forward safely. That one can have a bit more rectangular shape to it - with radiuses corners of course.

As for the sides - they are more sensitive - you need to have your crank in to see how wide you COULD go. Safe quick play is to leave them alone and only elongate the inlet. Freakmoped has a video with minimum overlap of inlet and crank - but I don't recall. (1.5mm?)

One question I have. Saw the pic below. Looks like the brass bearing race in your cases is inset about .5mm. Is it like this 360° or just on one side?

What a hunk of garbage. I'll give any one of you here $$100 for any of running vespa garbage you think you are so cool for owning, that's really all it's worth and all of you know it.

Did you sneak over from the Lambretta forum so that you could give us a reality check?

Some perfectly good village is missing their idiot.

What a great day in the garage. ScootNewb (Chris) ran the dremel like a boss!

We didn't port the inlets as much as Jack suggested because I was basically chicken to port under and next to the bolts in the case. So we took off enough to be close to the pin on the inlet, and the close side, close to the pin.

We used the ole "file the bearing down to temporarily put the crank in" trick (thanks again SCG) and that worked great, with the degree wheel to see what degree open and closed was and where we ground to And, of course, I forgot to write it down. I'll get it though before buttoning up the cases.

So we ground inlets, put together the 4 speed Cush Drive, flowed the carb box and the inlet for Rocket, and installed the fly side seals in both. We almost got the silly four piece shifter bearing installed but needed to go for a ride and get tacos. It is Taco Tuesday after all... Both cases have this brass inset a hare below the lip and the brass inlet is beveled slightly, all the way around.

And CM, thanks for the detailed description. I guess we could've beveled the curve a bit around the pins, but like I said earlier, I was just too chicken to get close to the studs. And lets face it - the scooter had plenty of power before even the new crank and cleaning up the inlet, so I'm pretty certain it'll be enough.

And thank you Jack for the explanation with the degree wheel. It worked like a charm and we both got to learn just exactly what is happening and when by spinning the crank around with the degree wheel on it. That was a cool thing in it's own right.


Chris rebuilding his Cush drive

The sacrificial bearing getting ready to be ground down

So THATS how the engine works! :)

I'm only grinding it back to that mark, which lines up with the stud above...

Chris grinding like a boss

A view through the carb box

FYI if you are porting and hit the stud hole, you can just patch it with some JB weld, it is very common to end up happening on P200 porting. The only caveat is once you see the hole appearing you should stop so you have enough to work with. You don't want to try to fill a hole and then knock out the JB putting in a stud.

Did I read that some people put Yamabond on a stud when it breaks through to basically seal the threads?

I've done both.
I liked the JB - tho the hondabond worked well and has lasted as well.
I cleaned the hole and blew it dry.
Put in some JB to seal bottom.
Then put grease on the stud and put it back in to make sure it would go.
Used the higher temp slow cure JB.
Backed the stud out to let it fully cure after it started to set.

So you remove the stud before grinding the inlet pad? If so, good to know.. didn't realize that and glad I haven't started grinding my p200 rotary pad yet.

Actually - I like to grind with the stud in - the black of the stud will show through when you hit on the side which is harder to see when you hit the bottom of the holes.

Grind right into them - as per Jack.
I've found the studs are designed not to bottom out in to the holes tho - so hen you hit the bottom of the hole - you will not hit the stud.
That extra volume is what you will fill with the JB.
Once you break into the hole - if you stop - you will be left with a small volume for JB.
You can also slightly shorten your stud if absolutely required I suppose - but never had to personally.

Never crossed my mind the stud hole would be deep enough to encounter there. But you've got me wondering how much it matters to keep the same profile/width on the rotary opening when you grind it back deeper? I'm thinking what about avoiding grinding the new opening so the profile avoids the stud area so that instead of a rounded end on the inlet its more jelly bean shaped curved around that stud? ha!

Grind through the stud. Can't get the inlet big enough if you don't. Grind through the bottom of the stud and profile to the aluminum. They rarely leak through the thread. And if they do, loctite 603 will seal it forever....... if needed.
After a few reed conversions, you'll realise a lot more can come out and not affect the stud.

qa, what timing you end up with?

If you take your time and gently let a sanding drum work it's way to the rear of the pad you might miss the stud hole altogether, the stud is close to the case edge, notso much in the web path, make some sharpie marks at stud hole location before you let the drum beat. I like to leave the sides alone just get more length.

Thanks for all the info and encouragement guys. We appreciate it greatly! I don't know - I'll measure and let you know.

We did stop grinding sooner than most of you guys though

And then Christmas comes along and life gets in the way, until today for an hour or so! I managed to get the fly side cases ready to go, which means:

Kickstart seal, kickstart quadrant, and bumpers
4 piece shifter bearing - which was a royal pain in the ass
Main flyside seal - loctite'd it in.

Also:

Ground down B62's clutch cover to receive a bigger seven spring clutch.
Ground down the tab in both cases that can interfere with the clutch.

Speaking of clutches:

We're going two different ways for the clutches. I'm going the Stella 22tooth clutch and a DRT 23tooth gear. That way I can play with which I like better, and also use the 22tooth on Olive, my current Stella.

Chris is going with the Pinasco Power clutch - banded - 22 tooth

I've got to replace the clutch in B62 because it came with a clutch that has a smaller diameter brass bushing than standard. That bushing is unobtainium now, so might as well join the present with a new clutch basket. Chris is concerned his old clutch is going to explode with the gobs of power he's going to have at his disposal so he's upgrading now vs later. I cannot wait to check them both out and see how they install.


The tab in the clutch area on the case. Notice the wear on it. The old clutch did this. Time to remove the obstacle...

There, that's better. This was done on both cases.

Took the channel off the sidewall of the clutch cover to make way for the larger 7 spring clutch

New seal, kickstart quadrant, rubber bumpers, and shifter bearing installed. Did this on both fly side cases

I hope you didn't forget to replace the quadrant's o-ring...

Got them replaced SaFIS! Thanks for the heads up.

Mine leaked a drop or two out of that seal since I've owned it and I've been waiting to replace it!

I just got back from a lovely week at an isolated camping spot along the ocean - dry camping - in our 1997 Winnebago Adventurer. And it was huge storm after storm - totally awesome. Lots of cribbage was played, and even a game or two of Rummikub (new to us).

But back to the real reason you're reading this - the two builds! YES - Chris and I got after it today and made a lot of progress. Everything went like clockwork and no big hiccups. And we got to do a quick, misty ride to get burritos for lunch.

So we managed to install new style engine buffers, crankshafts, cush drives, and drive axles. We ended up with ordering an incorrect tooth kick start gear for the 4 speed, but a minor hiccup since I'm waiting for a clutch. I'll call Diamond Dave tomorrow and get a 13 tooth one on order. Oh, and we put together a Pinasco clutch for Rocket. Sweet setup. Pics of that next time...


The view from our RV window - notice the humming bird in the bottom left? Hearty little bugger...

Welcome to the clubhouse - lets get to work!

I put a 1 over shim in the gear stack of the three speed. Feels good now, and at .06

The new style buffers. A combination of allthread and hammer put them in nicely

Buffers installed

Used a heat gun to warm up the case then installed the axle bearing with just some little taps and it was home...

Rear seal and clip in place

This was way cool - Chris liberated this case warmer from his work (shh) and heated the case up

Then dropped the crankshaft with the bearing into the case super easy - like magic!

Then we got busy installing the cush drives and the 23 needle bearings - fun for sausage fingers....

Once the cush drive was in place it was all about tapping and wiggling the gear stack until it hit bottom.

And voila, it's ready for the other half.

Time to run down to Los Amigos for a burrito and park out of the mist trying to pass as rain - special parking only for the most privileged scooters - ha!

qascooter awesome post! Was checking out the bird as you mentioned. Swells look mean. Muffins making me hungry as I drink coffee and listen to my stomach growl. Crankshaft looks sexy. Hot plate is magic. Fun watching you guys from the living room.

I had a friend (Rover Eric) back in Michigan that would use a hot plate like that - I'd forgotten though. I'm gonna have to find one of those.... Nice work!

Good stuff.

Man Rover Eric was a wealth of knowledge. Too bad he doesn't hang about any more.

Thanks guys! Yesterday was a good day indeed.

The hotplate trick - we got that one from Robot and SteveO's video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV982aFlywA

It sure made things go together like magic.