Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:38 am

Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
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Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
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Location: Siam
Tue Jul 26, 2022 6:38 am linkquote
That hole looks pretty awful. I can't remember what it's supposed to look like, but I'm pretty sure it's not that.
Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:44 am

Ossessionato
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Ossessionato
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Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:44 am linkquote
Something is scraping here.
Is the quadrant interfering with the case from the repair?
Let's see the quadrants surface that mates?

Weirdly looks like what ever draped that slipped off the raised ledge and into the case.
Perhaps just the springs tip from a prior assembly.

Can the spring get weirdly cocked (technical term) due to the wallered out hole?



Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:47 am

Addicted
1968 VBB150
Joined: 04 Nov 2015
Posts: 610
Location: OC
 
Addicted
1968 VBB150
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Location: OC
Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:47 am linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
Something is scraping here.
Is the quadrant interfering with the case from the repair?
Let's see the quadrants surface that mates?

Weirdly looks like what ever draped that slipped off the raised ledge and into the case.
Perhaps just the springs tip from a prior assembly.

Can the spring get weirdly cocked (technical term) due to the wallered out hole?
Ok -this makes sense. Spring slips out of the hole, drags on the inside of the case. Maybe you could get away with a bushing for the spring leg instead of a case repair?
Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:50 am

Addicted
1968 VBB150
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Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:50 am linkquote
OR

And this is a longshot....

The leg wasn't inside the hole, or was on the shoulder. This would make it feel normal for a few kicks until it slipped (gouges) and then wouldn't work. This to me makes the most sense even though unlikely.
Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:07 am

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Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:07 am linkquote
Careful now... family show here... lets dial back the talk of "wallered out holes" ?
Ran out of daylight yesterday before trying to test fit the new spring. (Read: my drink was empty and never made it back to my 110* garage.) I will say the new quad dropped in smooth as silk, whereas the old one had a harder time sliding in. More soon... will grab pics of mating surfaces ASAP.
Tue Jul 26, 2022 10:18 am

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
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Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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Tue Jul 26, 2022 10:18 am linkquote
Birdsnest wrote:
Careful now... family show here... lets dial back the talk of "wallered out holes" ?
... dropped in smooth as silk ... the old one had a harder time sliding in... will grab pics of mating surfaces...

heh heh
Tue Jul 26, 2022 3:08 pm

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Tue Jul 26, 2022 3:08 pm linkquote
Please forgive the grade school double entendres from my prior post.

OK, here's a snap of the mating surfaces...

Looks a little grindy, but for sure felt smooth in all my experiences kicking the bike over. New quad feels like it is sitting and actuating normally in the flyside.


Springy grindy post.


grindy here too!

Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:37 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Ossessionato
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Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:37 pm linkquote
Lemme Columbo this thing from the top.
It started great - but then on a later try - the lever didn't return.
But you could lift it - on it's own? Zero resistance?

Exhibit A shows interference between the quarters spring base, and the case.
Some combo of case warp or quadrant or both.

Exhibit B suggests the leg of the spring has been rubbing something - but it's steel - and the cases are aluminum - so that is more likely the work of someone's pliers - fighting to get it to insert correctly. That's a clue.

In Scene 1, we assumed that the wallered out hole might be the culprit (and it might be related) but I am gonna postulate something a little different.

I think you have a combo of things happening.
1. The quarter is rubbing on the cases. Can you check this - maybe it wasn't all the way seated.
2. The spring wasn't properly put in the hole when assembled (might be part of the cause of the poor seating) and has been wresting inside your cases - where it scratched them. That's what caused those scratches from the earlier pic.

It's possible it jumped out of the hole - but it has a pretty long leg - so my money is on incorrect assembly last time - and potentially a bent quarter.

BTW - my trick for getting the spring and quadrant in, is to use a big channel lock. I can just twist it and then drop it in it's slot. I'm sure others do similar.

Fresh quadrant and ensuring the spring leg is properly in the hole should fix the issue (I hope!).


Exhibit A


Exhibit B

Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:22 am

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Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:22 am linkquote
I cant argue with a man in a trench coat and a cigar. I hope you are right! As mentioned, the new quad dropped in clean and spring feels like it seated ok. Gonna slap the cases back together and attach the lever and see what happens.

Will update.

Appreciate the detective work Ned.
Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:39 am

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Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:39 am linkquote
Be sure to replace the cruciform while you are in there.
Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:49 am

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Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:49 am linkquote
Absolutely.

Have new seals, will inspect gears, cush, bearings, etc. while it's on the operating table.
Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:58 am

Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
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Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
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Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:58 am linkquote
Don't forget the rubber o-ring inside the opening for the starter quadrant shaft.
Wed Jul 27, 2022 6:21 am

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Wed Jul 27, 2022 6:21 am linkquote
The clutch side seal sits behind the bearing, so the bearing has to be removed to replace it, and removing the bearing will stress/damage it...so if new seal is needed then also a new bearing is.

I hate doing that bearing, but when it must be done, it must be done.
Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:20 am

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Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:20 am linkquote
...speaking of bearings.... the flyside crank bearing on the SS (and GS?) is sandwiched between two seals. How does it stay lubricated? And/or should I pack with grease?

TIA
Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:00 am

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Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:00 am linkquote
Birdsnest wrote:
...speaking of bearings.... the flyside crank bearing on the SS (and GS?) is sandwiched between two seals. How does it stay lubricated? And/or should I pack with grease?

TIA
yes it gets greased but not "packed". Lambretta's have the fly side seal isolated by two seals as well, and you should be able to find good instructions on that.

process would be similar to greasing a spindle bearing.
side note: there are bosses in the casting for two oil passages to be drilled from the gearbox. this would have captured oil slung from the gears and routed it to the top of the fly side bearing, and then drained it back to the gear box from the bottom. I don't know of them ever being drilled, so likely didn't work as planned and they opted for grease.

side note 2: some P cases have a boss to route 2T oil injection to the fly side bearing, but again, never seen them drilled.
Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:41 am

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Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:41 am linkquote
TY. Will consult my Sticky Manual and see what it says.

On the vid above... for those interested... he greases the bearing at about 48.45.
Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:45 am

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Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:45 am linkquote
More things found that need to be addressed.

Wrong cruciform. No big deal.

But we did find the land was blown that holds the circlip (clutch side)

ReminderSS = Circlip Bearing-Seal. No tabs like a P.

What to do? Any learned suggestions welcome.





Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:22 am

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:22 am linkquote
Well, fudge.

Only, not fudge. The other word.
Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:25 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
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Location: San Diego, CA
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '04 Ninja 250
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Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:25 am linkquote
Seems like Gick territory
Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:56 am

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Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:56 am linkquote
Early returns on FB and elsewhere are to mod the cases for this:



Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:04 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '04 Ninja 250
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:04 am linkquote
That seems interesting
Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:04 am

Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 3198
Location: Veria, Greece
 
Ossessionato
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Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:04 am linkquote
There are no "pegs" for the bolts to screw in on your cases. I'd contact Jonathan or Joe for repairing them…
Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:21 am

The Dude
Too Many piles of Junk that need too much work and too much money
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The Dude
Too Many piles of Junk that need too much work and too much money
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Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:21 am linkquote
If you go this route, I'll donate to the cause.

Safi's has a point about there being no pegs to mount to… but it still might work with some machining/drill/tap



Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:42 am

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Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:42 am linkquote
For sure a machine/drill/tap scenario.

Jesse! Thanks…send me your PayPal info and I'll happily pay cost and shipping

Be cheaper than ordering from Germany with their shipping anyway!!!

TIA
Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:57 am

The Dude
Too Many piles of Junk that need too much work and too much money
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The Dude
Too Many piles of Junk that need too much work and too much money
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Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:57 am linkquote
Don't worry about the cost. I've had this piece for over a decade, no joke. Can't even remember what I bought it for. I think it was a 'just in case' add it to an order type of thing... I'm happy to see it put to use, especially for an SS180

PM me your address, and I'll drop this in the mail today.
Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:00 am

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Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:00 am linkquote
GeekLion wrote:
Don't worry about the cost. I've had this piece for over a decade, no joke. Can't even remember what I bought it for. I think it was a 'just in case' add it to an order type of thing... I'm happy to see it put to use, especially for an SS180

PM me your address, and I'll drop this in the mail today.
Once again setting the bar for kindness. You rock amigo.

Address coming to ya. Will pay it forward.
Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:02 am

The Dude
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The Dude
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Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:02 am linkquote
Birdsnest wrote:
Once again setting the bar for kindness. You rock amigo.

Address coming to ya. Will pay it forward.
This is the way.
Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:03 am

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
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Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
 
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:03 am linkquote
I concur doctor.

while we was rubbing our remaining two brain cells together we had almost stumbled upon the same idea-- drill, tap, and some little plates to hold everybody together. with this set up and some machine work, I think it's a much more betterer fix than what I initially blurted out.

I said the bad words. out loud.

and I have no excuse, I wasn't even drinking!

Last edited by greasy125 on Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:27 pm

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Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:27 pm linkquote
greasy125 wrote:
I concur doctor.

while we was rubbing our remaining two brain cells together we had almost stumbled upon the same idea-- drill, tap, and some little plates to hold everybody together. with this set up and some machine work, I think it's a much more betterer fix than what I initially blurted out.

I said the bad words.

and I have no excuse, I wasn't even drinking!
First words outta my mouth too! Ahem.

Gonna see if we can modify that tab to fit. Mark is willing to assist with his steady hand and to stop me if he thinks professional help is needed. (Professional mechanical help you bastages.)

Pic heavy updates to come.
Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:24 pm

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Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:24 pm linkquote
what all was in the bin of spares? was there an engine case?
Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:44 pm

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Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:44 pm linkquote
Indeed , there was a set of 67ish cases… but as it seemed to be running great, and as not to be a horder… I passed those on to DSnyder for his SS Project.

(Extra salt in the wound.)
Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:10 pm

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Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:10 pm linkquote
Birdsnest wrote:
Indeed , there was a set of 67ish cases… but as it seemed to be running great, and as not to be a horder… I passed those on to DSnyder for his SS Project.

(Extra salt in the wound.)
that good karma will get you every time...
Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:14 pm

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
 
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Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:14 pm linkquote
Birdsnest wrote:
Indeed , there was a set of 67ish cases… but as it seemed to be running great, and as not to be a horder… I passed those on to DSnyder for his SS Project.

(Extra salt in the wound.)
you have disobeyed kajiit house of wares house rules.

1- customer always wrong
2- gold doubloons preferred, American standard folding money and PayPal friends and family only!
3- only sell the junk. keep all the tasty bits for projects you'll never get to
4- we don't talk about
5- always keep something cold to drink for visitors

seven lashes with a well used clutch cable outer from a short man with short arms in a seated position using his non dominant arm.
Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:48 pm

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Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:48 pm linkquote
I have recovered from my 7 lashes…

Just stopping in to thank Jesse G aka Geeklion for the quick delivery of retainer. You are the dude!

Now, to figure out if it can be fitted. It is far thicker than I anticipated. More soon…


Thanks Jesse!

Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:47 pm

The Dude
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Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:47 pm linkquote
Happy to help! I hope it works out.
Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:17 am

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Ossessionato
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Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:17 am linkquote
Hang on.
Before you go crazy on it - can you fire a few more pics?
I've "toyed" around with this portion of the cases before...
Perhaps there is a "home fix" that would be legit/and reliable.

on this motor
- it looks like there is no bronze seat for the bearing.
- it looks like the seal is inboard, and the bering is outboard, nearest the clutch.

The biggest forces are pressing the bearing - IN - rather than out of course.
Have a thought but wanna see another pic or two of the broken area if you can shove a camera in there from a few angles?
Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:40 am

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:40 am linkquote
Better pic of this area here.


can you get it a bit more in frame?

Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:06 pm

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Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:06 pm linkquote
Ned thanks but we are already on the path to retainer placement. Cases have been dremeled and drilled. Pics to come…
Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:24 pm

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
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Ossessionato
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Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:24 pm linkquote
dayum - my solution was Dremel and drill...
Since its best to get out on a limb when there is no need to climb - and I am an extra cup of coffee deep t'day, I'll type my $.02 in case (see what I did there) anyone wants to throw a tomato or two.

I woulda tried dremeling with a cut off disc.
Keep the metal ring there so that what you Dremeled off area is at equal height.
then tap and use 2 M3 cap head screws - where one half falls on top of retainer clip, and one half falls on the newly dremeled (but still raised) surface.
Sprinkle of red loctite.
ever so careful snugging - not tightening - cause M3 WILL STRIP EASY.
Bob's your uncle.
🙂

How'd I do?!
Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:23 pm

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Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:23 pm linkquote
charlieman22 wrote:
dayum - my solution was Dremel and drill...
Since its best to get out on a limb when there is no need to climb - and I am an extra cup of coffee deep t'day, I'll type my $.02 in case (see what I did there) anyone wants to throw a tomato or two.

I woulda tried dremeling with a cut off disc.
Keep the metal ring there so that what you Dremeled off area is at equal height.
then tap and use 2 M3 cap head screws - where one half falls on top of retainer clip, and one half falls on the newly dremeled (but still raised) surface.
Sprinkle of red loctite.
ever so careful snugging - not tightening - cause M3 WILL STRIP EASY.
Bob's your uncle.
🙂

How'd I do?!
Hahahaha!

Pretty good!

But…. M4 man.
Pics to be posted directly.😁
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