Sun Nov 13, 2022 4:52 pm

Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 2274
Location: Siam
 
Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 2274
Location: Siam
Sun Nov 13, 2022 4:52 pm linkquote
SaFiS wrote:
Have them vapor blasted first…
I've never understood why. Is it for aesthetic purposes? I've found that just a good brushing down with straight gasoline works fine. They just get grungy again within a week.

Anyway, those cases look good.
Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:33 pm

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Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:33 pm linkquote
nomadinsiam wrote:
I've never understood why. Is it for aesthetic purposes? I've found that just a good brushing down with straight gasoline works fine. They just get grungy again within a week.

Anyway, those cases look good.
A couple reasons.
1. I think it leads to a better and more meticulous rebuild. Clean ass cases will inspire ya to chase threads and take the extra care you might not otherwise invest.

2. It's truly easier to spot case defects, cracks, weirdness, etc on vapor blasted cases.


MHO, YMMV, FWIW
Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:36 pm

Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 2274
Location: Siam
 
Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 2274
Location: Siam
Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:36 pm linkquote
Birdsnest wrote:
A couple reasons.
1. I think it leads to a better and more meticulous rebuild. Clean ass cases will inspire ya to chase threads and take the extra care you might not otherwise invest.

2. It's truly easier to spot case defects, cracks, weirdness, etc on vapor blasted cases.

MHO, YMMV, FWIW
#2 two sounds very valid. I hadn't thought of that.
Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:49 pm

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 12200
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
 
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 12200
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:49 pm linkquote
money spent on vapor blasting is less money for ham!

adios the kick starter and just bump start it. enjoyment from the ride AND a work out!
Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:47 am

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Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:47 am linkquote
If only I was 20 years younger.
Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:08 pm

Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 3336
Location: Veria, Greece
 
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 3336
Location: Veria, Greece
Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:08 pm linkquote
#3 Vapor blasting "seals" the surfaces so they don't get dirty that easily anymore...

You're doing a pristine resto, it would be a shame for the engine to look like "crap" even cleaned up...
Wed Nov 16, 2022 10:41 am

Not So Moderator
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Wed Nov 16, 2022 10:41 am linkquote
Hmmm…

Important little paragraph from the service station manual regarding cage and conrods matching. Apparently SS and Rally don't follow the usual protocol.


The more you know…

Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:39 pm

Enthusiast
'71 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 08 Sep 2022
Posts: 82
Location: SoCal
 
Enthusiast
'71 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 08 Sep 2022
Posts: 82
Location: SoCal
Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:39 pm linkquote
Birdsnest wrote:
Hmmm…

Important little paragraph from the service station manual regarding cage and conrods matching. Apparently SS and Rally don't follow the usual protocol.
Where does one obtain a service station manual?
Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:24 am

Not So Moderator
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Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:24 am linkquote
There are some printed pdf copies for cheap on fleabay. OG manuals are tough to find, but come on market from time to time. PDF versions are out there on the webs for download... you have to dig, but I think most are out there.

EX -
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiezvjkzrX7AhXmk2oFHefMAx0QFnoECDwQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vespaforum.com%2Fmanuals%2FMore%2520Manuals%2FVespa%2FPX_150_Workshop.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0Z8hSKHls2VWrkhY0ec74m
Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:27 am

Addicted
1968 VBB150
Joined: 04 Nov 2015
Posts: 641
Location: OC
 
Addicted
1968 VBB150
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Location: OC
Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:27 am linkquote
This was/is my goto-

http://online.fliphtml5.com/qtjt/rbak/#p=14
Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:38 am

Not So Moderator
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Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:38 am linkquote
^^^
There it is... I knew it was out there somewhere!!!
Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:26 am

Enthusiast
'71 Sprint Veloce
Joined: 08 Sep 2022
Posts: 82
Location: SoCal
 
Enthusiast
'71 Sprint Veloce
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Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:26 am linkquote
Cool, thanks!
Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:17 pm

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6565
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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Posts: 6565
Location: So Cal
Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:17 pm linkquote
Birdsnest wrote:
Hmmm…

Important little paragraph from the service station manual regarding cage and conrods matching. Apparently SS and Rally don't follow the usual protocol.
So a "4th category" con rod takes a "1st category" cage?!

That's some impressive product labeling logic.
Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:53 pm

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Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:53 pm linkquote
I assure you the production engineers did that on a Friday at like 4:30pm, drunk on Barolo and laughing hysterically as they wrote the copy for the service manuals. Fuckers.
Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:54 pm

Hooked
'58 VBA '79CT90
Joined: 25 Dec 2019
Posts: 173
Location: Chico CA
 
Hooked
'58 VBA '79CT90
Joined: 25 Dec 2019
Posts: 173
Location: Chico CA
Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:54 pm linkquote
dsnyder586 wrote:
I see it's missing pages 7-9. Just like my copy 😢
Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:55 am

Not So Moderator
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Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:55 am linkquote
Replacement cases being prepped…

The exhaust bolt is stuck in place and looks like it got pretty worked over at some point.

I have had penetrant on it for a few days now…
Is it reasonable to heat up the case and then try and use an impact wrench to remove?

Worried about rounding the head further and/or damaging the case with the power of the impact wrench.

Thoughts?


Stuck like chuck


Not much left on the bolt head

Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:40 am

Addicted
1968 VBB150
Joined: 04 Nov 2015
Posts: 641
Location: OC
 
Addicted
1968 VBB150
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Location: OC
Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:40 am linkquote
I would. Even worst case you drill and tap if it goes sideways
Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:55 am

parallelogramerist
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3953

 
parallelogramerist
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Posts: 3953

Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:55 am linkquote
Without a doubt, get the bolt hot, hot, hot!!!...just like the Cure! Get out the propane torch and focus most of the heat on that bolt. The rest of the heat will dissipate to the cases which won't be a problem. You might have to repeat the process a couple times until the bolt comes out in one piece though.
Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:59 am

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6565
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6565
Location: So Cal
Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:59 am linkquote
Quote:
Is it reasonable to heat up the case and then try and use an impact wrench to remove?
No! Stop! Don't do it!

Heating the case is the wrong technique.

Like whodats says, you need to heat the bolt, not the case. Focus a MAPP torch on the bolt . Get it red hot then back it out back it slowly.
Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:30 am

Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 3284
Location: Florence, OR
 
Ossessionato
79 P200E (Ruby), 62 Allstate (B-62), 2008 Stella (Olive)
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 3284
Location: Florence, OR
Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:30 am linkquote
Yeah, don't pull a stunt like I did and break something. Next time I run across this issue that bolt is gonna be so hot it'll want to melt out of the hole
Sat Nov 19, 2022 12:49 pm

Molto Verboso
Joined: 29 Nov 2020
Posts: 1127
Location: Los Angeles
 
Molto Verboso
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Location: Los Angeles
Sat Nov 19, 2022 12:49 pm linkquote
whodatschrome wrote:
Without a doubt, get the bolt hot, hot, hot!!!...just like the Cure! Get out the propane torch and focus most of the heat on that bolt. The rest of the heat will dissipate to the cases which won't be a problem. You might have to repeat the process a couple times until the bolt comes out in one piece though.
Wait a minute...
He should focus the heat on the aluminum, no?

Baby steps and leverage will get the job done.
TIGHT Vice Grip on a shot bolt head -- and something to add more leverage as needed, like a big wrench on the vice grip.
Aluminum doesn't fuse to steel. It's all corrosion friction.

BTW I went through this a month or so ago. Tried freeze spray I'd ordered by accident, for the hell of it. My garage still wreaks of this shit:
https://www.amazon.com/CRC-05002-Freeze-Off-Super-Penetrant/dp/B000TFTH00/ref=sr_1_2?crid=29YNFSI1A6VDO&keywords=Freeze-Off+Super+Penetrant&qid=1668886626&s=industrial&sprefix=freeze-off+super+penetrant%2Cindustrial%2C196&sr=1-2
Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:03 pm

Addicted
1964 Allstate Cruisaire, 1966 Allstate Blue Badge Small Frame, 2022 Husqvarna Vitpilen 401
Joined: 15 Aug 2021
Posts: 670
Location: York, PA (the intellectual center of the universe)
 
Addicted
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Joined: 15 Aug 2021
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Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:26 pm

parallelogramerist
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 3953

 
parallelogramerist
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Posts: 3953

Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:26 pm linkquote
Ray8 wrote:
Wait a minute...
He should focus the heat on the aluminum, no?

Baby steps and leverage will get the job done.
TIGHT Vice Grip on a shot bolt head -- and something to add more leverage as needed, like a big wrench on the vice grip.
Aluminum doesn't fuse to steel. It's all corrosion friction.


The aluminum is going to get dang hot as well, so i usually just focus the majority of the heat on the steel bolt. If the bolt doesn't come out, then i just kinda play it by ear after that.
Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:39 pm

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6565
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 6565
Location: So Cal
Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:39 pm linkquote
Quote:
Wait a minute...
He should focus the heat on the aluminum, no?
No. I was advised by a very experienced machinist that the correct technique is to heat the steel bolt, not the aluminum. I've tried it many times and it works.

I'm guessing about the physics but I suspect heating the bolt expands both the bolt and the material the bolt is screwed into but at different rates. Heating the bolt also cooks off any thread locker that might be on there.
Sat Nov 19, 2022 5:59 pm

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Sat Nov 19, 2022 5:59 pm linkquote
Thanks for the replies y'all.

Will give it a go in the morning.
Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:49 am

Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 2274
Location: Siam
 
Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 2274
Location: Siam
Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:49 am linkquote
This is all quite odd. On an SS180 (or GS160), a bolt should not thread into the case arm. It's a long bolt that pushes through the case arm and threads into a square caged nut in the exhaust bracket. That looks like a bodge by a previous owner.

Maybe you know this, and you are a doing a rescue job. I don't know.

The bolt that needs to be there is like this one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174211982181?hash=item288fd7e365:g:eMEAAOSwNNVeR1po&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAsG5cnRIDkC%2FSVOyWc6LpTkg61yxMsTHEV27zldUQKLH0rRuhs9jPHJyhyYHJyFRLinwGJ0x2YxTptQi8V6zed38tQhtWij3N9m%2BUKN9QdX%2FqsaF6PRgKPZKFxoeswhe6JMy9li5QlW%2FHK9yPJ%2FARpghNAGUCv8vxtDloGL65QlZbwlef4sOWMI%2FZ6b%2B0g%2F8psZNwXswsOdYW1lwB5BMxupzjSQbGsBHIR%2B%2FEMlhddJBV%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR66ohM6SYQ
Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:18 am

Not So Moderator
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Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:18 am linkquote
This is a new set of cases I just got… I don't know if it is the correct bolt or the incorrect bolt. I just know the bolt is stuck fast in the swing arm… We'll see what's-what when we get the bastard out!
Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:12 am

Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 2274
Location: Siam
 
Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 2274
Location: Siam
Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:12 am linkquote
Birdsnest wrote:
This is a new set of cases I just got… I don't know if it is the correct bolt or the incorrect bolt. I just know the bolt is stuck fast in the swing arm… We'll see what's-what when we get the bastard out!
Well, all I'm saying is it ain't right the way it is at the moment.

Does your old engine swing arm have the same?
Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:55 pm

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Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:55 pm linkquote
Just rust and crust. Had to remove the swing arm mounts to get penetrant in there, and it was a two man job for sure. Mark - usual suspect - with the assist. Thanks man! Onwards.



Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:00 pm

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Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:00 pm linkquote
Next order of business…

There is a very particular roller bearing in the SS that requires a very particular tool. (Typical blind bearing pullers WILL NOT work.)

Anybody out there have the factory tool pictured below? Or know someone who does? I'll send ya a monetary deposit to borrow, or the case half and some ducats if you'd be so kind.


Need this rare bird. (The lower pictured blind bearing puller.)

Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:56 pm

Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 2274
Location: Siam
 
Ossessionato
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 2274
Location: Siam
Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:56 pm linkquote
Ah, I see now that the exhaust bolt is the right one and wasn't threaded in. It was just broken and fused in.

Sorry, but I don't have that puller.
Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:41 pm

Banned
2:6
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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Location: San Francisco
 
Banned
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Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:41 pm linkquote
What's the ID of that bearing? I don't have that puller but may have one that could work.
Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:22 pm

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Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:22 pm linkquote
ID looks like it is 21.3 +/- 0.15

It has a weird brass bush that is press fit into the case and sits proud internally, hence the need for the specialty tool. Mark and Jonathan both suggested tack welding a bolt to yank it out, like on a smallie... would prefer the tool or similar if possible. (The standard blind bearing puller can't get purchase bc of the brass.)


21.2 or 21.4ish


Brass in Pocket

Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:40 pm

Addicted
1968 VBB150
Joined: 04 Nov 2015
Posts: 641
Location: OC
 
Addicted
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Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:40 pm linkquote
Would the bread method work here?
Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:04 am

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Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:04 am linkquote
Mark found a version on SIPs website

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/tool-puller-sip-bearing-flywheel-side-input-shaft_21467280

(Fine…. Finnnnne… it's fine.)
*lights 100 dollar bill on fire*
dsnyder586 wrote:
Would the bread method work here?
Burning bread method as in burning cash? ....yes

I don't think the bread method is possible here as tapping on a bolt would probably damage the brass receiver for the input shaft.
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