A California 2-tone legend in TX (66 VSC Resto)
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Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:55 pm quote
Quote:
this settles it. i'm officially starting a go fund me to get birdsnest some sawhorses and a sheet of wood, or like, an old door. that way he and mark can work at waist height!
Don't mean to be the contrarian - but how is he going to clamp the work with his knee if its way up on a saw horse?
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:29 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Quote:
this settles it. i'm officially starting a go fund me to get birdsnest some sawhorses and a sheet of wood, or like, an old door. that way he and mark can work at waist height!
Don't mean to be the contrarian - but how is he going to clamp the work with his knee if its way up on a saw horse?
Yoga.

That’s all I got man. That’s all I got.
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x 2), 74 Primavera (x 2), 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5802
Location: So Cal
Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:32 pm quote
I say we all pitch in and get him a tree stump, like Voodoo’s

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2966

Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:34 pm quote
greasy125 wrote:
charlieman22 wrote:
Quote:
this settles it. i'm officially starting a go fund me to get birdsnest some sawhorses and a sheet of wood, or like, an old door. that way he and mark can work at waist height!
Don't mean to be the contrarian - but how is he going to clamp the work with his knee if its way up on a saw horse?
Yoga.

That’s all I got man. That’s all I got.
If that's the case, I guess we need to chip in a few more $ for a pair of yoga pants too.
Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 3171
Location: Nashville
Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:54 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
If that's the case, I guess we need to chip in a few more $ for a pair of yoga pants too.
We can aim for Athleta and make Lululemon the stretch goal...
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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Posts: 8686
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:02 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
greasy125 wrote:
charlieman22 wrote:
Quote:
this settles it. i'm officially starting a go fund me to get birdsnest some sawhorses and a sheet of wood, or like, an old door. that way he and mark can work at waist height!
Don't mean to be the contrarian - but how is he going to clamp the work with his knee if its way up on a saw horse?
Yoga.

That’s all I got man. That’s all I got.
If that's the case, I guess we need to chip in a few more $ for a pair of yoga pants too.
Bro I gotta hit target for cleaning supplies. Marshals is right next door.... just sayin...
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:04 pm quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
I say we all pitch in and get him a tree stump, like Voodoo’s

If shipping wasn’t what it is... I has ALL the stumps...
Style Maven
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Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:09 pm quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
I say we all pitch in and get him a tree stump, like Voodoo’s

Ill pitch in cash money too, but I think for proper results, he's gonna need the almost mandatory adjustable height Doctor stool accessory!



Stool in proper use with said stump, he can brace his elbow safely on his knee. He can roll around the target for ideal access position.
Assume the position, please. If you're gonna do it, DO IT RIGHT!

Grind a soft radius in the end of a short 2X4, clamp that in your vise end up and now pound on your mudguard against a solid wooden dolly with this setup, for example.
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2233
Location: california
Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:38 pm quote
My question has been answered.
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VNB VSC VBC VSX
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4833
Location: Hustletown, TX
Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:54 am quote
Hey hey hey now... the knee clamp is OSHA approved, as is my cooler table.

That's just Efficient Work Space 101: grind, remove clamp (knee), open lid, retrieve thirst quenching beverage, repeat.
Addicted
Too Many piles of Junk that need too much work and too much money
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 626
Location: Roseburg, Oregon
Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:39 am quote
Birdsnest wrote:
Hey hey hey now... the knee clamp is OSHA approved, as is my cooler table.

That's just Efficient Work Space 101: grind, remove clamp (knee), open lid, retrieve thirst quenching beverage, repeat.
EXACTLY THIS. Efficent Work Space 101. Cheers everyone!
Hooked
1958 Allstate Super Cruisaire 2005 70cc Yamaha Vino
Joined: 23 Aug 2020
Posts: 290
Location: Philadelphia
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:06 am quote
I kinda thought we all worked on our bikes on top of coolers or Lowe’s buckets. Anytime I’m feeling okay I make sure to tinker so when it takes me 45mins to stand back up straight after, I know I’m still alive.

Buckets for tables for lyfe
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VNB VSC VBC VSX
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Location: Hustletown, TX
Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:14 am quote
Horncast Update
Initial attempts at brazing have been less than successful.

Efforting continues...

More soon(ish)
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 x2 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
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Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:41 am quote
Are you brazing with torch or TIG? I watched a guy on a TV car resto show do some beautiful work on thin metal by TIG brazing. I have zero experience and was hoping to learn more on your dime. Here's a good article about the basics and there are several YouTube vids showing how as well. https://weldingmastermind.com/how-to-braze-with-a-tig-welder/

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VNB VSC VBC VSX
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Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:51 am quote
I'm using a torch. (Map Gas)

My technique is dog poop. Practicing on tin cans to varying degrees of success but the holes just seem too big to fill/bridge.

Thanks for the link. Ive been in the youtube wormhole trying to get some decent how-to info.
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
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Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:02 pm quote
Are you using something made of copper as a backer when trying to fill those big holes?


I see I'm going to have to get me a large tree stump for my vice.
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VNB VSC VBC VSX
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Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:34 pm quote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
Are you using something made of copper as a backer when trying to fill those ?
only two or three of those holes are large enough to require a backer.
Most of those holes are small enough to be filled without. (Theoretically)

The fact is, I just have no exp with proper technique… Learning as I go...

Today’s tests were marginally better but still not good enough to try on the horn cast yet.
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2233
Location: california
Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:55 pm quote
Terry - Love this old Tony.

Birdsntest - holes are a bear.
Guessing one of the issues you are trying to over come: hole edge just burns away from you.
Suggestion: I would cut some little plugs that fit in your holes. Maybe you have a punch - or can sort out another plan. Use some soft metal so easy to work with.

If you cant do that - second choice would be to back the holes before brazing over the backing. But that backing needs to be hard snug against the hole edges - or it will burn back. Its all in the prep.

If you can plug them with little circles - or even with a backer - us something thicker than the sheet metal and start your weld there.
Thick metal is much more forgiving.
Starting is the hardest part.
So thick for start point is good.

Then just draw your weld over to the edges.
The thick metal will work as a heat sink and make the whole process more forgiving.

Just a thought. Maybe mock it up on the bench and see if it works for you with some nice 1/8" plat cut in a little plug shape.

Edit!
If you can find a non galvanized bolt - and slide it through from the back side of the hole - it would make a big ass heat sink.
Then pull it tight to hole and tack it prior to brazing it in.
Then grinder wheel cut it off.
Bob's your uncle.
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 x2 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
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Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:39 am quote
Not everybody has a TIG and I want to learn how to do this with MAPP. I like that you don't melt the steel when you braze properly, when welding thin stuff that's a problem on the edges.

I was gonna suggest similar to CM's bolt, but using 16 penny nails. You may need a helper or three hands or a bungee and some wire to pull and hold the nail tight(bend a hook in the end). Now braze in the nail, then cut off as suggested. I do this when welding up holes and small gaps, and the excess nail usually just burns off.

What flux are you using and what rod? I may have to give this a go.
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VNB VSC VBC VSX
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Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:25 am quote
Thanks guys. Great suggestions all around.

Ned hit it on the button. To get the metal hot enough to melt the brass you start to curl the edges of the hole. Trick has been to puddle adjacent to the hole and then slowwwwwly drag the puddle into the gap.

Was doing my level best to not use backers unless absolutely necessary. (wanting to stay off the bodge-o-meter ) But...I'm starting to think it is necessary.

I do like the penny nail idea Terry. Btw... Using 3/32 brass rods coated with powder flux. Also have 1/8 rods... but haven't had reason to try them yet.
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2233
Location: california
Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:45 pm quote
Terry wins this one outright.
Not even close.

It is a fallacy that backers are cheating.
You have to change the mindset.
10 penny nail is brilliant!
Its better than brazing material - hell - its steel!

If it makes you feel better - bevel it so it fits into the hole a bit better.
That will allow you to grind the brazing back to about .5mm.
You are putting 1500° F into 1/16" steel for fks sake. There is nothing natural about that!

If you want to keep it honest - like gin with ice cold tonic and a lime that came straight off the tree honest - you gotta make everything clean.

I don't mean like - oh - that should be clean enough.
I mean - BRIGHT shiny metal.
Front and back.
Then wiped down with acetone clean.
Like your the first CD you bought before you started just leaving them on the counter to get scratched. Clean room clean.

The welding will draw the crap from the back of the hole to into your weld when you heat it - like sweating a pipe.
Even the inner edges of the holes need to be clean.
And that nail - make it look like nickel.

Ok - enough of that - you get the point.
Then figure some method that allows you to get the edges of the nail tight to the edges of the hole. Get rid of air gaps.
One known method for this is to get a Poidog with a set of goggles on and a pair of pliers in his well gloved hand (a beer in the other of course) pulling that nail hard agains the hole back.

I can't stress enough how tight and clean - and I am talking welding here - makes a difference.

Best I got.
Hooked
79p200e 66smallstate 85pk50xl 84p125ets 63GL
Joined: 24 Nov 2016
Posts: 277
Location: Flatness, TX
Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:08 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
One known method for this is to get a Poidog with a set of goggles on and a pair of pliers in his well gloved hand (a beer in the other of course) pulling that nail hard agains the hole back.

I can't stress enough how tight and clean - and I am talking welding here - makes a difference.

Best I got.
Count me in!!!
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 x2 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
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Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:08 am quote
You could try acid core solder and some good ACID FLUX. Would be similar to brazing, but lower temperature. I've done solder sheet metal repair with some success. Either brazing or solder should work well if you get a good bond. Brazing is stronger, but what do you care here. And again with solder, try the nails pulled tight into the holes, but tin the holes and nails first.
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Posts: 2233
Location: california
Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:21 pm quote
just read back.
Apologies for piece meal responses.
3/32 is still pretty thick rod - at least in tig brazing.
If you could get some 1/16 or even ~.45 - it will melt quicker for you before surround material has to get so hot - at least with tig...
U might try that on your bench test along with all other proposals and see what works.
I find the thin rod is just easier to work with at lower heats.
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VNB VSC VBC VSX
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Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:50 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
just read back.
Apologies for piece meal responses.
3/32 is still pretty thick rod - at least in tig brazing.
If you could get some 1/16 or even ~.45 - it will melt quicker for you before surround material has to get so hot - at least with tig...
U might try that on your bench test along with all other proposals and see what works.
I find the thin rod is just easier to work with at lower heats.
Will search the interwebs. I have a few days to spare as I nurse a self inflicted burn from the the torch nozzle. (Note - never remove your gloves until leaving the work area and/or don’t try to catch a wobbly torch on its way from the counter top to the ground.)

In other news sawhorses arrived and I have to say having the important stuff up at waist height is really nice. Thanks for the nudge G-man!



Addicted
Too Many piles of Junk that need too much work and too much money
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 626
Location: Roseburg, Oregon
Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:31 am quote
Saw Horses (and coolers) for the win!!
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 8686
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:30 am quote
the first rule about braze club is we don't touch the tip of the torch.

the second rule of braze club is that we curse wildly when we do touch the tip of the torch.

-g
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 8686
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:34 am quote
GeekLion wrote:
Saw Horses (and coolers) for the win!!
coolers, you pheasants! (kicks trash can)

the lord hisself divined unto us the shop fridge. now give your balls a tug and drop the hundy and get one. shit, put a plank on top and there's a work bench!

-g
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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Posts: 8686
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:37 am quote
Birdsnest wrote:
charlieman22 wrote:
just read back.
Apologies for piece meal responses.
3/32 is still pretty thick rod - at least in tig brazing.
If you could get some 1/16 or even ~.45 - it will melt quicker for you before surround material has to get so hot - at least with tig...
U might try that on your bench test along with all other proposals and see what works.
I find the thin rod is just easier to work with at lower heats.
Will search the interwebs. I have a few days to spare as I nurse a self inflicted burn from the the torch nozzle. (Note - never remove your gloves until leaving the work area and/or don’t try to catch a wobbly torch on its way from the counter top to the ground.)

In other news sawhorses arrived and I have to say having the important stuff up at waist height is really nice. Thanks for the nudge G-man!
sorry i workplace shamed you into some saw horses. but i just could not abide the nonsense.

also, double check the flux. if it's old or damp it won't want to do what it's supposed to do. splashing some more flux on there is fine and dandy, too!

-g

ps: i spy with my squinty eye some type of can that may or may not of come from california.
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VNB VSC VBC VSX
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Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:13 am quote
GMAN wrote:
ps: i spy with my squinty eye some type of can that may or may not of come from california
Note I had it waist high for easy access. Last one of those gems. A really good, hot day beer. Gracias muchacho.

Whilst I nurse my gimp paw I worked on some easy stuff.
Getting bends and flatspots out of the OG SS rims was the order of the day.

I used a crescent wrench and backer for gentle persuasion. Scuffed the paint a touch, but all 3 rims (including the spare) now look tip-top.


After


Before

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2233
Location: california
Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:30 am quote
oof - bummer about the paw.
rims look much happier now tho!
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VNB VSC VBC VSX
Joined: 28 May 2008
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Location: Hustletown, TX
Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:07 pm quote
Thx.

Question about SS180 hubs for anyone/

Noticed a stamping difference between 2 of the hubs I have. One was on the front end one was a “spare”. Both stamped piaggio, but markings inside are different.

One has a single dot in each section. The other has 2 dots per section.
Any ideas?
Any relevance whatsoevah?



Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2233
Location: california
Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:23 pm quote
This one has Voodoo written all over it - but I will throw my guess in and he can tell us if I'm right.

Those "dots" are from some kinda ejector pins that bang the parts out of the mold. Different molds (often even run in the same factory at the same time) might have the ejector pins designed differently. Or they might be from two different sub suppliers that used different ejector pin locations and numbers - but supplied the parts in spec to Piaggio.
Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 3171
Location: Nashville
Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:28 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
This one has Voodoo written all over it - but I will throw my guess in and he can tell us if I'm right.

Those "dots" are from some kinda ejector pins that bang the parts out of the mold. Different molds (often even run in the same factory at the same time) might have the ejector pins designed differently. Or they might be from two different sub suppliers that used different ejector pin locations and numbers - but supplied the parts in spec to Piaggio.
I 99% agree with this assessment. I'm going to guess the "dots" are sprue's used to ensure that any air bubbles that get caught up in the mold are displaced where they won't ruin the casting.

Either way, V oodoo will be righter than either of us once he chimes in.
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 x2 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
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Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:07 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Those "dots" are from ... ...the parts in spec to Piaggio.
Nailed it.

Chandler does have a good point though, they do use vents to allow trapped air to escape. These aren't they is all. Plus fail at foundry talk, sorry . The sprue is where the molten metal is introduced into the mold but at least you knew it was a proper foundry thing.
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2233
Location: california
Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:22 pm quote
Hands-above-head-YES-emoji!
A small morale (not a typo) victory on an otherwise drab day.
I'll take it!
Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 3171
Location: Nashville
Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:14 am quote
V oodoo wrote:
Chandler does have a good point though, they do use vents to allow trapped air to escape. These aren't they is all. Plus fail at foundry talk, sorry . The sprue is where the molten metal is introduced into the mold but at least you knew it was a proper foundry thing.
Do I get half points for "correct concept, wrong term?"

I still need to get my resin casting going again, too. I've clearly already forgotten a critical mass of what little I knew about it.
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VNB VSC VBC VSX
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Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:24 am quote
Thanks ya'll... Little bits of minutia, but I still find it interesting.
Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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Location: Bay Area, California
Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:16 pm quote
Just checking in to see the progress. Oh, my. Oh. Ouch. That looks, oooh, that's not good.

I hope I didn't overstate the condition of the bike.
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VNB VSC VBC VSX
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Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:47 pm quote
jess wrote:
Just checking in to see the progress. Oh, my. Oh. Ouch. That looks, oooh, that's not good.

I hope I didn't overstate the condition of the bike.
Oh man! You understated the condition of the bike. Seriously.

Some of this has been a surprise, but half the stoke is in the process!!!

I am happy to have the curveball of the horncast.... A great learning experience. And really, the rest of the bike is soooo straight. We’ll get it right, and I will make sure it’s as good as as can be for the next caretaker.
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