Modern Vespa

Well - it was nearing end of year - so I bit the bullet and ripped down my rust bucket of an Allstate I bought.
This thing was headed for landfill - so I will alter it in good conscience.
I have always wanted one of these for their beauty.
Had been waiting to find one that would never be "original" again to do this with.

Plan:
- Power plant is biggest question. Vacillating between electric screamer and thumpy big displacement tourer.

Other stuff I am set on:
- Original green. My all time favorite classic Vespa color
- Brown leather and light colored rubber grips and trims.
- The chassis will receive an internal frame - which - of course - will have some attachment points for a sidecar to bolt cleanly and directly to.
- DC electrical system - with lights I can see with and other's can see me with
- Rubber floor runners - these came with all aluminum versions that are collector items - but utterly useless to grip with your shoes.
- 10" wheels (tho I have an idea about how to make this look vespa original)
- Front disc - also have plan of attack here that Whodat was kind enough to help out with.
- Handlebars will be original exposed chrome - and I will try a remote reservoir to keep them clean looking

When complete - I imagine it will have closer to a European Struzzo model look than an Allstate. Know that's not everyone's cup of tea - but...

Oh boy. You got your work cut out for you!

Gonna be fun watching this one take shape.. hopefully I'll learn some masterful rust repair techniques by proxy!

CM22 epic thread 2.0 starting now.

Wooohooo - 2021 hear we come. This will be fun to see what kind of stylish machine comes out of that. I'm sure it's going to be a good save!

I'm in for this one ... like the whole plan, except maybe the 10" wheels part, which I realize is driven by the desire for a disc brake up front. Still, let's talk before you commit.

Hydro disc brake, 10" wheels, and a stock 200 engine is my answer to ANY vintage Vespa. I'm officially subscribed!

Headed for landfill? Looks like you got it from landfill. Resurrection more than restoration. Will be very jealous of you pull this off.

High torque tuned 200 motor and keep the 8 inch wheels. And tiny disc brake to match.

That Prestigio label is the cats pajamas. Good lord.

1. Another vote for rolling on 8's!
(I may even have some patches made...)


2. A vote for the big thumpy tourer!

SO stoked for this thread.

ambitious. i love it.

let me know if i can help.

-g

Almost missed it. There was hardly any leather on the seat itself - and when I went to tear it off - a small part that was tucked underneath the springs had that label on it. Didn't know it was worthy - but looked cool.
The scoot has a speedo as well.
My understanding is - that was an option - so who ever bought new must have flashed it up a bit with what ever was offered in upgrades.
Psyched to have found that little label.
Pulled the "cruiseaire" metal logo off the inner leg shield carefully as well.
Has a small crack - but I think I can clean and glue. . Caused a good chuckle. Yeah - its a mess - but I think I can drag it back - and at least I have full access to the tunnel...

There is some precedent for using 10" on that year body style.
The GS 150 from '57 - which many think is the most beautiful of the lot - came stock with 10" wheels.
They were the closed style - like below.
Tho - can't say I'm shocked y'all didn't all jump for joy at first thought...

We are going to have some fun with this one. Look forward to getting good input and doing the build.

Wild how much different the 57 and 58's are.

Can't wait to see how this one goes.

Count me in on this one!

alright y'all - I bite.
what is the magic in your view of 8's?
never ridden them.
know allota you swear by them tho.

(birdsnest - logo is very cool)

Lower center of gravity makes for much nimbler handling.

8" are nimble and quick on the take off.... but you will need a guardian angel if you hit a pothole...

ill be watching this thread with interest - your other thread was a masterclass in many disciplines. dont throw anythng away that you update...... there are some of us who may benefit from your cast off

truly awesome handling comes with a

12" CONVERSION

that i would like to see on an oldie. i wont be doing it on my oldie as its not the current look im going for - however yours seems to be an open book for modifications so i thought i would suggest it ))

oh and if you go the tuned engine route.... SIP do a 9 litre tank for these bad boys

This. X 10

I was pretty shocked how much more I enjoyed bombing curves and corners. It's a joy to ride.

I also live in a swamp covered over with asphalt where our potholes are the size of small homes. I don't find the 8's any more challenged than the 10's of my other scooters. (Granted they are not as stable as a standard motorcycle tire, but 10s aren't either.)

The a knock has always been braking, but some of the newer aftermarket hubs and shoes seem to get better bite than the old Piaggio stuff.

(Shit...and... if anyone could pull off an 8 inch disc it'd be you!)

Lastly...55... 60...65 on 8's just feels faster than 55...60...65 on 10's. Really.

It's a vibe worth the effort

A lot of development the past few years for the 2-port 1955-1957 widebody engines.

I recommend keeping it at 8".

As far as the aluminum floor runners, if you have them, mount them. They really are not slippery. But if you don't, then I understand going with a Vespa floor runner set for 1/10 the price.

Please reach out to me for any Widebody questions you might have with this project. Happy to help out with real world experience.

at the risk of hijacking the thread... what are the additional goodies on that engine and what are the improvements???

I've been out of touch with my Vespa fetish for a couple year... kids in college, golf, 4 wheel vehicle fixing...


My VBB (pictured in my profile) still has the OG paint in distressed.

Glad I stopped in the photo above of the preserved paint looks like where I need to stay..

Anyway. This one's much more toasted than mine,

Be well, I'll watch...

DB Cooper couldn't hijack this thread: even if he took up welding. (qas - see what I did there?)

I'm as interested as anyone in what the cool Gick set up includes - and what kinda HP is now roughly produced?

Jon - do appreciate the offer - know you are the resident house expert on these machines.

Does anyone have upgraded 8" brakes on their model they are impressed by?

I've been kinda keeping my eyes open for a rust bucket (I mean that in an endearing way) like this for a while. My ideas were pretty in line with yours CM. Hydro disc, internal frame structure (if needed), bigger engine, bigger wheels, etc. I would like to do a Six Days (ISDT/ISDE) build.

How could I miss it! What a crack up!

. Have seen - its in "Sei Giorni" style from early 50's race scoot. Cool - tho I think it robs a bit from the big long curving rear fender coming from the seat. I have all - but one long outside one. Thanks for head's up. I had imagined them as slippery. Plan to clean them up with soft wire brush/rotary scotch bright to see what I have.

To put us all on same page on power plant - and coax some opinions and discussion about current options from y'all:

My goal on this is to get 25 - 30 HP.
Caveate *I'd like to see 12HP and 9Ft Lbs of torque at 4K RPM.
That second part (@4K RPM) is the challenge - I think I need to leverage bigger CC's.

Malossi 221 is a top contender - weirdly seems to have become the "value" option. Hell - even their cases are a competitive way to build.
BGM doesn't seem to have an offering (how does that make sense?)
Quattrini has a 232/244 cc cylinder - but you have to use a special crank and rod. Not out of the question - but it makes it a $1100 conversion - is it any good?
BFA has their 306 - but it's a $7K build...
Rumor has it BFA now have a 260(?)ish cylinder for P200 cases?
Anyone heard this/ have any info?

Then there is the reed vs rotary debate.
Safis just posted his plan to go back to rotary on his 221.
Can't say I blame him - his bell crank bent while riding.
Jack's did same.
So did SEBs(?)

I want this thing to thump - reliably.
I've got a second generation concept up my sleeve for a sidecar... so it will have some load on it (I am not renown for a light throttle finger either).
IK 25HP is pretty straight forward to get - but it get's tougher when I am trying to squeeze my 4K RPM target in too.

So gents - within these parameters - what would your ideal motor build be?
Also - Whodat - what the hell is the ISDT/ISDE? Am I going to have to study for it?

-CM

Great project! I see a shipload of welding in your future! As I said, just check their FB page. It's a 244, quite different from the Quattrini offering. You could use the Uncle Tom bell style crank from SIP with this as it you need a 127mm rod.



I prefer 10's for tyre choice... you're very limited on 8's. Plus the GS thing is great.
But if you go to 8's, make sure you get this. Think it is the only 8" disc on offer.

https://www.saigonscootercentre.com/ProductDetail.asp?idBasket=&category=60&product=1738&






If you want to use closed 10" rims, they have this version as well.
https://www.saigonscootercentre.com/ProductDetail.asp?idBasket=&category=60&product=1139&

CM, i just google searched "Sei Giorni", and it turns out that it's Italian for "six days". How about that? ISDE is International six days enduro. ISDT is international six days trial. I knew that Lambretta's and Vespa's used to enter those events, but i didn't realize that Sei Giorni meant translated. ISDE events are still really big deals around the globe. They are more popular in Europe than the US though. It's a big enough deal that KTM releases a "Six Days" model bike every year and tacks on an additional $1000 over the price of their standard dirtbikes. I'll usually race one or two local races a year on my dirtbike that have an ISDE format. But nowadays, the races are usually just one loooong day. The races are pretty fun. The rules are set up more like a "time, speed, distance" race would be. You get penalized for going too fast or too slow. It's definitely a thinking man's race.

And that's why i've always been keen on offroad scooters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Six_Days_Enduro


https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/tank-sei-giorni-style_752074XL

Embarrassingly - after Ginch previously/kindly gave me the head's up on the soon to be launched BFA cylinder - I couldn't find any meaningful info.
(tho in my defense - I was searching for a 260...)
Re-searching with a reverse photo search from his post - I did a little better - but mostly still seams to be pretty pictures and coming soon stuff.
Image showing three port exhaust is cool.
Will be interesting to see how it compares to Quattrini 244 and Malossi 221
Is there an accepted street view of Malossi 221 vs Quatt 244?

Speaking of crappy searching - Hadn't even thought to search Siagon Scooter for a braking option.
Think a 10" closed wheel could look spectacular in body color - tho I know its not everyone's cup of egg nog.

Even more hopeless - Whodat - hahaha - so ISDE is literally International Sie Gironi Enduro so to speak. Gracious I can be thick.

Going to be everyone's ideal scooter,.......... if you keep it on 8's. Putting it on 10's even if cool 10's they will spoil the look and feel. Will be just as fast on 8's, probably handle even better with a sidecar than the Unicorn does.

M244 would be the best choice for this but way too much money. And 210 MHR on a 57 crank would get similar results, with some careful adjustments (and by adjustments it means dremelling a new kit). 26/26 and autolube options too. Upgear kit to compensate for the 8's and you're done......but if sidecar upgear might not be needed.

This is going to be epic!

CM, you're making the rest of us look bad. I was out in the new shed unpacking a little bit yesterday and thinking about how my *first* lockdown project, the VBB rebuild, is still not finished, and here you are kicking off another lockdown project.

I also vote for the 8"s. I love them both for the nimble feel and the chonky look it gives the bike.

Good call on the SaigonScooter 8" disc. It's a sweet set up. That should seal the deal for you, CM. Would be uber cool on this build.

As for tires, I wouldn't sweat it. There is no better tire IMO than the mighty Heidenau K75, which is available in 3.50x8, 4.00x8 (M rated), 110/80x8 (N rated) and a fatty 120/70x8 (N rated).

MMM - Sunday morning project bench racing.
My fave.
It's like doing the build with fewer injuries - and more coffee.

Ok - 8's have moved in to the realm of possibility - will park that for the moment but where they were a hard no - now they are at least a 50% yes. Do like those chunky looking ones from prior post for pure bad assness. Could be the way I go. Thanks all for weighing in with some passion on making this thing come to life.

As for power plant - three questions for the crowd to kick tires hard on.
1. Rotary or reed
2. Smart or SI - I have a Smart in small size on the shelf I could trade in for larger. If Smart - what's the max size for rotary? *
3. MHR or Quattrini

my quick back of napkin:
MHR 210 = $450
New Mazz or Uncle Tom bell crank = $200 - 300 (big question is: read vs rotary)
= $650 - $750 MHR upgrade

Vs

Quattrini 244 = $700
SIP or Quattrinni crank long rod = $360-$430
= $1060 - $1130 Quattrini upgrade

BFA 260 - unknown.

All other components = same.
So difference looks to me to be about $400 bucks between the two options.
Am I missing some additional cost drivers?
In grand scheme - the $400 kinda looks like a value to me for the additional CC's.

Editors note:Got a bit lucky over Xmas. Put the lunk of yellow steel that was my pipe burying machine on an auction site and it went for 2x what I thought it would. Project funder!

Sooo -
1. Rotary or reed
2. Smart or SI
3. MHR or Quattrini

* If I am understanding - Quatt 60MM crank requires shaving of fly side cases. Does that mean they have a wider rotary pad to enlarge inlet with?

So I couldn't remember what size it was when you messaged me.

244.

If you look at other BFA cylinders on SIP you'll get a feel for the price of their cylinders. No dynos by BFA unfortunately. I've fixed this for you -

3. MHR or Quattrini or BFA You need to machine the diameter of the flyside half, not the width.

The rotary inlet is a restriction if you want to go big, looking at the GSF thread on the Pinasco 251 you'll see the figures of reed vs rotary tell the story fairly clearly in terms of power.

Don't forget that a 62mm crank will give you 252 on the Quattrini and a 64 gives you 260.

I can hook you up with a mate of mine who has built and run a number of Malossis (MHR and Sport) and a couple of Quattrini 232's (rotary and reed) as well as his current 260. Now he's building a 306. I've talked to him a number of times about the difference in feel between them all. Very nice guy, let me know and I'll set up a call - much less room for misunderstandings than written.

Ginch - all good stuff.
feeble attempt to search for the BFA was basic incompetence unrelated to the 260 vs 240 - but I enjoyed suggesting differently.

Would welcome getting in touch with your guy. Would be totally interested to speak with someone that's run them. Thanks!

No worries. Will let you know.

A friend of mine built a BFA engine for a customer. I don't remember which cylinder he used, but he used all BFA parts, from top to bottom. I did get to put my hands on it. The thing is REALLY impressive just to look at! I think the engine is still in his workshop. He did say that he thinks that it will be an excellent engine for touring...as well as just plain going way too fast.

I would keep it simple. Rotary, MHR 210, SI 26/26, autolube. Properly tuned and set up it will be faster and pull better than the unicorn.
Building an exotic engine will make a great read but not entirely needed.

^^

i second jack on this one. KISS

spend the dough on trick suspension and brakes.

or just keep the stock engine, have gickspeed throw some magic at is and have a billygoat that's all grunt.

but definitely leave it 8's

-g

It would be interesting if you could put in two electric motors. One in the rear hub and one in the side car. I wonder if the company has a controller made to run two motors like that? Electric wheelchairs run two motors like that but the motors are the steering like a skid steer one speeds up and the other slows down in a turn.

Whilst their stuff is mostly for bikes, I follow this companies work with interest as they cater for the keen DIY'er. They've done some writing on dual motor setups and their "cycle analyst v3" makes a good dashboard/nerve centre for throttle inputs etc. https://ebikes.ca/

Wow - Jackie.
Hadn't heard of those guys.
Impressive stuff.
Thanks.

Christopher - the controllers - like Kelly's - for hub motors can be wired to run two motors simultaneously. That was an early concept for me with the Unicorn - but I eventually decided to rehab the bodge cases in to a thumper.
There is some question about how it would behave when turning - even after some tuning in to make it take off and track straight.
What steered me away from this - so to speak - is that once I built the scoot in to a leaner - it handled so well in the turns it put this idea in the rear view mirror.

All this ^ will likely have to wait tho - because I have decided that I am sticking with a two stroke build for this. If I manage to build the scoot of my dreams - I could see going back to the Orange Unicorn and taking that one electric as my next move.

My electric plan would utilize gears - if I went that way - I would want a highway legit screamer that would be happy to cruise at 65. This build however, will get there with gas and oil.

Jack - I took Ginch's advice and browsed GSF to see what Dyno charts looked like on rotary valve Quattrini. Looks like they would all hit spec - tho coming in around 25+ HP and north of 12HP/9Ft lb torque at 4000RPM - so I am leaning rotary for simplicity - but undecided on carb and cylinder for time being.

What is the max size side draft you can utilize with an opened rotary inlet?