Modern Vespa

Biggest carb that will go on a 200 rotary, when fully dremelled out, is a 30mm. Any bigger carb will obviously still run but won't make any difference over a 30mm. That being said an SI26/26 doesn't have a manifold, so equivalent to a 28mm sidedraft at least. Bigger carbs just have better acceleration and as this is of less concern on a sidecar engine, SI26/26 will be plenty I'm sure. As said autolube an added bonus.

One of the quattrinies would be well suited but all the faff with cranks, machining and the ever growing bill, just won't be enough better than the MHR. And as this gsf, probably less at the top and could be slower.

Whatever way you decide, it's going to be interesting.

I think the bigger the carb the more you lose low to mid range power. Smaller venturis with increased flow velocity definitely help low down. Bigger is not always better.

This ^

I would rotary valve, Si carb and look into look into these cranks thanks swiss1939 for bringing them to my attention think the mass of the crank is helpful for thumping.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/long-stroke-crankshaft-sip-premium_45021510

10 inch highway 8 inch street

I lost the source, but here's the calculation for carb size I found once upon a time and which has served me well:

So we're all on the same page with carb size. Correct carb size for a 221 is about 35mm sidedraft. 30mm would be smaller to be smoother. SI2626 gets credit for no manifold. Hence it is the ideal carb for the job. CM would have to make an autolube tank to fit in somewhere though.

I figured it would be another smart carb, since he has experience with one.

. Who ever stole Jack's computer - please give it back - need his input. No time for playing. At first I was thinking no way - but struck me I might be able to come with a solution with refillable bottle or even a diaphragm that is accessed by the old carb door. So... Maybe.

Chatted with Ginch's mate. He struggled with the 232 Quattrini on rotary - pinging - moved to reeds and solved. That has me a little concerned - but I see others that seem to be fine.

Additional: Read some GSF posts - I can never figure out how I even found the page - just happy when the translated discussion appears relevant to my search!
One comment I saw noted that many there found the Quattrini to be happier with more sedate timings. Some of these guys seem to be on rotary and fine - best I can tell...

Saw MJ Rally was posting on a 28MM SI. If I was going SI - why not gargantua 28? Not like I have a 26 on the shelf.

After reading Jack's comments on PIA of grinding cases - did a little searching. Turns out SIP offers a crank that will run with the Quattrinni 244 kit (60mm stroke) - and you don't have to grind your cases out.

Bonus: (Jack - your gonna like this bit), is that it comes with a 127 connecting rod - rather than a 126 like the Quattrinni. Thats kinda like putting a 57mm kit on a 60MM crank so you can play more with timing (I think?)
SIP crank comes in two version - one with longer timings.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/long-stroke-crankshaft-sip-performance_45021710?q=sip%20127mm%20connecting%20rod%20crank

So to go full thumping screamer - I'm now thinking:
M244 with 60MM stroke set up with SIP 127MM rod 60mm crank - with elongated timings - and SI 28? Can I get an Amen?
Think this would be the simple solution more inline with cost/level of work of the Malossi 210 - but with more CC's for low end.

Christopher - On these old scoots - not sure if I can cram a side draft in. But I was able to convert the smart carb to work on 45° and I have been working on my TIG welding - so maybe I could concoct an custom intake without having to cut a hole in the cowl. That said - I am not totally above cutting a hole in my cowl. Thing is rotted through and will require some welding in any event. 🙂. Carb - still for discussion.

Plan coming together nicely. Looking like a quattrini 244 then. A solid choice. Sure everyone will be interested to see one set up properly.

Ouch. Crank expensive but ideal. No machining and 1mm fudge room to optimise. Going to be worth it.
Base filling and matching is more on the quattrini but no big deal.

28/28 is a nice idea but they are only premix. 26/26 comes in both varieties (and cheaper). Either will set up fine on rotary.
Autolube is the big bonus. Engine gets lubed better and quick pit stops.

Will be quite some machine. Your tig welding will be expert level once that frame is fit for the road.

shame - tough call on which I would more value.

Space is really at a premium under the cowls/body - I think? I figure an SI - perhaps even mounted directly with no air box if need be - could get the job done.

I also made another decision - which is to go with the V-one cases.
Once I have put in a new:
Crank, 8"hub, DC Vape, Cyl kit, gearing to hit ratios that work, EFL shaft - the only thing I would be re-using from the P200 motor would be the cases.
V-ones are going for about $800 - so once I include shipping - I might as well just go with new cases that are already nicely reinforced.
Much appreciate the option tho Jim!
A certain other CM will be the proud new owner of that P200 motor.

As for V-one's, I assume they also have the inlet optimized?
Moved forward closer to cylinder?
Able to be opened more?
Malossi don't say much other than: "the supply has nevertheless been revised and implemented thanks to our modern CAD systems which have profiled an intake pipe into the optimized crankcase"

A reed version of course is in my ruminations.
The guys running reads seam to be tuning for 30-40 HP with 244.
The guys tuning for rotary seem to be closer to 20-25 with same.
So there is a big drop.

Challenge I (think) I have is fitting this under the cowl.
Reed looks like it would add significant height.
Also - need to find someone who has the 244 for sale - seams SIP and SC are out.
Comments?

Edit - pics below.

Swoon! ... yeah, allstate cowls are probably a touch smaller, but probably not too much,

Jealous already.

The VR-One (reed) would be my preference, as you get to use the stronger flywheel side crank bearing, similar or same as a T5. This is additional strengthening that would make sense if you can accommodate a reed block and big carb

SWA -
Didn't realize they only put the full sealed bearing type on the "R" version.

With the scoot off for beed blasting, I cant get a close look at this question.
Perhaps someone else reading this has some experience with the Allstate /struzzo models cowl clearance.

I think no matter - I may need to indent the chassis in that area - but I should be able to do a nice job - prior to paint - and it falls under the cowl.

thanks for the input/info.

Seems to boil down to this; If going sidedraft, then reed casings are the only choice. If not and rotary casings SI26/26 with autolube. One or the other.

Reed with a proper big carb (like mine) definitely preferred for the biggest smile. Just the noise opening up a 38mm to full torque is enough justification.

^ good way to look at it.
Doing homework on fit as I ponder what I prefer to optimize for - but know I am only going through the motions... will make what ever fit - once I am certain of performance.

Question to the crowd: is there a Quattrini reliable source other than SIP/SC that I might find an available kit from?

This. If the kit can't be sourced, the rest of this post is academic.

I'll get my own build thread going once I have motor in hand and a build going, but in the meantime can you clarify where you have to machine the cases to fit a 244 on a P200? Is it "just" taking a mm off the fly side to give the crank adequate clearance?

Personally, I think I'd go full-on crazy and to the 244 with a bell crank, reeds, and a beefy PWK carb, but the bell crank w/ 127mm conn rod is not going to be available until November 2022.

So I either get to assemble the comparable crankshaft by buying the long rod and (probably) finding a shop that can build it for me or just doing a milder build with a Malossi top end in the meantime.

I don't think the 244 needs to be crazy... I'd prefer just a solid tourer that can pull a railway carriage. Check out https://www.vespmoto.de/ and have a look at his setups and videos.

LTH have it 'within 15-17 days' - https://www.lambretta-teile.de/Cylinder-kit-244cc-Quattrini-M244-60mm-stroke-Vespa-PX200-Rally-200. Marco is very helpful (though never as quick as SIP or SCK) so I would get in contact and ask him... it's nice to speak directly to the owner. Plus he'll get you anything from either of those places to add to your order - no need to place an order at two different places and pay for two lots of shipping.

. I believe it requires a 1mm larger diameter on fly side of cases for the quattrini crank. *however - its possible there is a bell crank with 126mm (min needed) rod that fits without this? It is only Quattrini's crank that has the oversized diameter. Perhaps other's know of some options - I'd be tempted to put sand paper on an old crank and figure out how to spin it... 🙂, but take warning from my other 57+ pages... I know y'all THINK you don't need a sidecar - but no need to call it a railway carriage. Was hopeful someone could come through on this one. Many thanks! Know you have posted about Marco before - but I had not equated LTH (which I thought was an exhaust) with your guy in Italy(?). Remember - I am still relatively new - and tho my WOT approach has been effective for learning quickly - there are still holes in my base knowledge that you could drive, well, a railway carriage through. 🙂

Thanks!
Woulda been in "arriving soon" netherworld of SIP otherwise for the next who knows how many months.

CM, apologies if this is a bit of a hijack, but where'd you get to with research on this idea? When I saw this thread I was really hoping you were going to do all the groundwork for us on this, as I know you toyed with the idea early days for the unicorn

I saw Resistors thread on his '61, but the top speed (32 mph) and range (30 miles) were hardly inspiring. I'm aware of the Retrospectivescooters kit, but interested if there's other options available.

Cam.

Nevada - no trouble.
Resistor blazed the early trail - and has given some input and learnings to Jim.
Jim is working on a "next iteration" with his project currently - assume you have seen here: First Scooter, not my first project. (Now going electric!)
His will be a larger watt hub motor with higher voltage.
72 volts will take his closer to 50MPH I believe.
Not too shabby.

I've got an electric in my future - but this project isn't the one.
This one will be a two stroke thumper.

If you are interested in geared - The cleanest solution I have seen is on FMP's YouTube sight.
The guy got rid of the fly side of the case, and simply use a thick piece of aluminum - where he also mounted the electric motor.
Quite ingenious in its simplicity if you as me.
Here is a video of it.
From what I see/hear - first gear is still basically useless.
I am not sure how large a final drive you could get to - but my thinking was to go with a 11" rim with full size tire and the lowest gearing available.

The most expensive bit is actually the battery.
From what I can tell - Jim is having one custom built from someone in the Bike community. This is a burgeoning area. Post over there and perhaps he can share some info on cost and power for those interested - as he is doing some good learning for us all.

Cheers
-CM

My guy in Germany. The Germans will deduct their local taxes - because VAT type taxes are not required to be collected if the item is for use outside the EU.
The Italians however... well so far I haven't found one seller who can be bothered to take off the 22%. And of course you still need to pay sales tax and import duty when it arrives in the country.

Dang, I'm unplugged for a week and you've already got this thing planned out! Awesome! I've got nothing to contribute, except that I'm back to watching and learning

That's great CM, I do like the idea of it being geared (higher top speed, and feel like less of a toy!), but Jim's laying out some great detail on his build (Thanks Jim!) which makes the hub drive tempting. All good desktop research for me at this stage.

Now, from that diversion, we can now get back to our regular programming. As you were...

Thanks for checking in gents.
Have some travel for the next week - so scoot is on hold.
Craig- for the love of god - check your FB message. 🙂
Assembling my parts list while I travel - of course.
-CM

Was busy skydiving and away from FB. PM sent.

Travel safe

C.

Got any pics?

Confucius say Fall safe

T

Voodoo - was wondering when you might visit these parts.
Found and read through your's and GLscoot
Pretty good discussion/ examples on carb placement and P2 motor install on wireframe.
ACMA. From vietnamese home made to russian custom)
Vespa GS150 (1959)

Also came across this - which some of you may recall.
Kinda show stopping in it's pure fabrication quality.
ACMA. From vietnamese home made to russian custom)
What caught my eye - and search - was the subframe - which is basically what I had in mind - though I have different plans on how I would tie it in.
His seams to have accessed through the top of the frame as well for some reason that I don't anticipate, and... a flip up back half - which is also not on my list. Gracious.

Have a look.

not sure how I missed this whole thread so far, looks like I've been spending too much time away from MV. Will be following closely!

Charlieman I'm going to assume that this fell by the wayside as the stream of projects picked up speed through the rapids?

Where was this thread buried??

He still has the frame. I saw it when I was in his workshop this spring. He's just got a lot going on at work pretty much all the time.

Ginch doing his signature line proud.

CM: All tru ^

Project work time has all been soaked up converting the milling machine to full cnc.
Reconfigured and rewired modern controls.
I've learned a lot and the machine is nearly back on line.

In my spare time I've been watching all sorts of aluminum panel shaping videos in preparation for attempting an aluminum bodied side car for this build.
I suspect an English wheel is in my future.

I like to think of both above as preparation mode.

so you're going to do up another sidecar rig?

you crazy

but i like it

I wanna see KITT in action

Yup

Busted Ned. It's not really a CNC machine.
It's a "Dukes of Hazard" arcade game. The steering wheel is a dead give away.

Hahaha. Yea - I needed a big wheel to make it easy to reach…

More on this when done.
And looking forward to building the sidecar.

Hazzard. There are two Zs in Hazzard county.

Yeah but only one in safety hazard.