Going back to rotary
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Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2257
Location: Veria, Greece
Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:56 am quote
I think my mazzy bell crank has twisted on my P221. I was out for a ride at the end of November and while returning home, the engine started misbehaving. Flywheel seems to be rubbing on the stator. To be honest, I pushed it really hard, cause I needed a huge dose of "vespa-crack". Being also tired with chasing the jetting on the PWK, I decided to go back to a rotary valve motor and do a "mild" tune. Initially, I was going to use my old cases and just weld a plate inside the gearbox but my wallet was a bit itchy, after the Christmas bonus. The Malossi V-One cases are on discount on the official Malossi store, including free shipping, so I've bitten the bullet. A Polini longstroke crank and a SI26/26 are already here. The 210 Sport stays along with the Cobra...

I'm currently contemplating if I should weld a plate in the new cases or leave them as they are, while waiting for them...

More updates to come...





Ossessionato
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 61 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 86 & 96 Elite 80s, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
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Location: Oceanside, CA
Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:04 pm quote
What damage did you do that you need a plate welded on the gearbox?
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2257
Location: Veria, Greece
Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:23 pm quote
MJRally wrote:
What damage did you do that you need a plate welded on the gearbox?
It was done as a precaution to avoid cracks on the primary shaft and cases failing as a consequence...

This is from my current reed cases...



Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2967

Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:07 pm quote
Well, that plate will be easier to weld in if the cases haven't been contaminated with oil.
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:10 pm quote
Safis - donít the v1 cases you bought come pre-reinforced?
Do malossi cases need a plate like you used in your old p200 cases?
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2749
Location: London UK
Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:27 pm quote
Unfortunate but exactly what happened to mine a few months ago. I got the crank straightened and am still running it. I did buy another crank at the same time but that's now a spare.

I see why you want to go back to rotary but is still a highly non standard carb set up. Setting up the PWK is not impossible. Buying a simpler carb might have been cheaper.

Malossi cases are thicker where it matters and probably need flex where they are not. If you don't want your old reed casings I'll have them!
Banned
2:6
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Location: San Francisco
Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:48 pm quote
that plate is a really cool idea, had never seen that
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1674
Location: UK (South East)
Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:11 am quote
This got me thinking about cranks in high hp reed motors. There are more expensive options like the Uncle Tom from SIP or the Kingwelle. Are they physically stronger and more resistant to twisting, or does the higher price have more to do with flow and power?
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2257
Location: Veria, Greece
Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:35 am quote
So, I shouldnít weld the plate then. Supposedly they are reinforced but if I recall, FMPís review said otherwise. Anyways that will be a decision when they arrive. Jack, donít know if Iím going to sell the reed cases or keep them. Iíll let you know, although shipping to the UK could be a bit expensive. Anyways, Iíll update the thread when the cases arrive...
Hooked
PX 225, SS 180, 90SS
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
Posts: 168
Location: New Zealand
Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:21 pm quote
I will be watching this one with interest SaFis, I have a set of V-One cases and getting ready to build a long stroke setup with Malossi 210 Sport. Are you going to run standard gearing?
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
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Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:37 am quote
With Malossi and Pinasco both making cases, is there a specific reason you chose Malossi cases?
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2257
Location: Veria, Greece
Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:34 pm quote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
With Malossi and Pinasco both making cases, is there a specific reason you chose Malossi cases?
Malossi is better overall. They use 8mm bolts instead the stud-nut combo, modern sealing surfaces (no gasket), ports are ready for their cylinders, can work with all crankshafts.

Pinasco has/had quality issues with tolerances in the bearings seats, too much casting porosity resulting in air leaks and lately they became so greedy that they changed the rotary pad width so as to make you buy their crankshafts cause they're the only ones that can work with the cases. And Pinasco is basically just a marketing name nowadays. The company was sold a few years ago...



Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2257
Location: Veria, Greece
Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:32 pm quote
Cases came today. Really nice but packaging was terrible. The kickstart area broke through the box and was hit a few times during transportation. Thankfully no harm done. Sent Malossi a "nice" email...









Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Location: california
Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:40 pm quote
Safis
Very (very) cool.
Question: how does the inlet size look compared to a stock P200?
Is the case flowed better between the inlet and the cylinder base - or pretty similar to stock P2?
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2257
Location: Veria, Greece
Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:49 pm quote
Haven't cracked them open yet, but rotary and flow is basically "stockish" according to tech info. Only difference is the ports that are ready for the Malossi cylinders...
Ossessionato
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
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Location: Florence, OR
Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:45 pm quote
Wow - beautiful. This'll be fun to watch.
Moderator
VNB VSC VBC VSX
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Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:49 pm quote
Pretty stuff
Addicted
1981 P200E / 1979 P200E / 1974 Rally 200
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Location: San Francisco, CA
Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:11 am quote
Excited to see this project!

The V1 is basically the same as the original casing, just with a different port layout?

What's up with the mixture screw on the Spaco carb? I modified mine so it was a screw Ė shortened it, and cut a groove into it. It has a different thread pattern than the Dellorto one.

I didn't understand the purpose. It sticks out, so the rubber cover doesn't fit, and has a hex head, which is basically impossible to adjust. Very tight for a socket or a flat wrench.

The carb is otherwise identical to Dellorto.



Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2257
Location: Veria, Greece
Sun Jan 24, 2021 12:05 pm quote
Cases cracked open. As seen on a few reviews, the "solution" they use during the CNC process is all over the cases (they don't dry them) and it's probably what corrodes the bolts and the dowel pins. Made a dummy bearing and tried on the Polini crank. I also have to file down all the razor sharp edges. Two sets of studs came in the box, engine rubber mounts and the wider axle bearing. Haven't heard back from Malossi, cause guess what, their mailbox is full (seriously??). I've send them a message on FB. Let's see if they'll care to answer...

Few photos...























Hooked
PX 200
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 275

Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:12 am quote
SaFiS wrote:
Christopher_55934 wrote:
With Malossi and Pinasco both making cases, is there a specific reason you chose Malossi cases?
Malossi is better overall. They use 8mm bolts instead the stud-nut combo, modern sealing surfaces (no gasket), ports are ready for their cylinders, can work with all crankshafts.

Pinasco has/had quality issues with tolerances in the bearings seats, too much casting porosity resulting in air leaks and lately they became so greedy that they changed the rotary pad width so as to make you buy their crankshafts cause they're the only ones that can work with the cases. And Pinasco is basically just a marketing name nowadays. The company was sold a few years ago...
Hearing the same things here... a handful of local riders have brought a bunch of the pinasco cases... theyíre super hit and Miss with the material quality... and they always seem to need modifying... alignment pins, bolt holes... stator plate not being able to screw into place... just to name a few
Enthusiast
1x PX260, 1x GS232
Joined: 16 Jun 2015
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Location: Brisbane, QLD
Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:54 pm quote
SaFiS wrote:
Cases came today. Really nice but packaging was terrible. The kickstart area broke through the box and was hit a few times during transportation. Thankfully no harm done. Sent Malossi a "nice" email...









Yes, that happened to my VR1 cases when I received them too... a little bit of a file and sand and they were good as new?! haha!! The one bit of advice I can give you is to use an oversized kickstart o ring as my mates leaked when he used a std sized one. mine has been as tight as a drum. Funny you should mention going back to rotary, sick of trying to tune, I've gone back to my trusty 221 SI24, I'm back in love with rotary!! Even retained the elec start :)





bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x 2), 74 Primavera (x 2), 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5809
Location: So Cal
Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:15 pm quote
Those built-in degree marks might be my favorite feature



Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2257
Location: Veria, Greece
Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:06 am quote
@Stuart: Man, yours was abused. What the hell?? Malossi responded to my message. Yeah, weíll inform our packaging department. Not even a sorry, we were eating pasta when we packaged your cases. And thanks for the tip...

@Mike: I wish this was the case. I think itís just how they cast them...
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
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Posts: 4612
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:02 pm quote
those are some sexy cases, for real....
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2257
Location: Veria, Greece
Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:59 pm quote
So, while waiting for parts, I started preparing the cases. Well, props to Malossi for screwing up the CNC process. Some cases have been machined deeper than they should where the silent blocks go, so spacers, instead of washers are required. BGM is selling a set but I decided to make mine on our "new" old lathe...

BGM's set...
https://www.scooter-center.com/en/spacer-set-for-silentblock-engine-bgm-pro-w-7.5mm-vespa-px125-200-vespa-rally200-vse1t-2nd-series-used-for-motor-housing-malossi-v-one/vr-one-bgm7952sp?number=BGM7952SP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kFuJadcyVo



Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2238
Location: california
Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:48 pm quote
Quote:
sorry, we were eating pasta when we packaged your cases. And thanks for the tip...
Caused a good chuckle.

Love the lathe work.
Deep rooted lathe jealousy.
What a nice tool to have in the shop to play with.

Watching this one closely - interested to see if you are satisfied with the return to rotary.

-CM
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2257
Location: Veria, Greece
Sun May 02, 2021 12:08 pm quote
Last piece of the puzzle is here. Static, AC version of the SIP Vape that I'll be combining with the AC/DC Ducati regulator I already run. Took off the cylinder of the old motor and took the first measurements. Jack, what's your take on it?? As mentioned I'll be using a SI26 (basically 25) so we don't want to outgrow it. And the Cobra stays...





Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2238
Location: california
Sun May 02, 2021 7:37 pm quote
Every time you post - I will come back and watch the crank case driven lathe.
That is pretty spectacular.
I hope you have a handle bar gear change lever mounted to it and a clutch.

Interested to see what you decide to do with timings my brother in rotary.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
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Location: London UK
Sun May 02, 2021 11:54 pm quote
A few things first, are you having autolube on the 26/26 (25)? I would.
Can you get the rotary duration up a bit? If cutting the case, it looks like it has width potential too. 185 is on the low side. 195 to 200 better.
Cylinder is a sport kit? Those measurements need to be a little more accurate. At least one decimal place. Can you measure again?

Still going to have to go through a non standard jetting set up but easier than the needle carb before. You have a vortex for the carb? It's already outgrown the stock type filter.
Addicted
Too Many piles of Junk that need too much work and too much money
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Location: Roseburg, Oregon
Mon May 03, 2021 12:14 am quote
SaFiS wrote:
Last piece of the puzzle is here. Static, AC version of the SIP Vape that I'll be combining with the AC/DC Ducati regulator I already run. Took off the cylinder of the old motor and took the first measurements. Jack, what's your take on it?? As mentioned I'll be using a SI26 (basically 25) so we don't want to outgrow it. And the Cobra stays...





Great updates SAfis!

Silly and probably stupid question - where can I find this timing calculator?
Addicted
PX 150
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Mon May 03, 2021 12:14 am quote
For $25 more you could of had the VRONE cases and not had to worry about rotary timing!
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2257
Location: Veria, Greece
Mon May 03, 2021 12:55 am quote
At the time of the discount it was around 150Ä (115Ä now) and Iím already on reeds on my current motor. Anyways...

Jack, no autolube (frame is premix). I also donít have all the necessary bits. Yes, kit is the sport, will measure again. No problem on doing some work on the rotary (say 10mm at the back, 2mm at the front??). I have a Polini venturi but Iíd like to keep the bellows...

@GeekLion: http://ddog.at/stz/rechnen.php
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
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Location: London UK
Mon May 03, 2021 1:55 am quote
Measure the rotary in degrees before cutting anything. Aim for 125/75 this will be more sport touring kind of timing. Don't take either number any longer.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
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Location: London UK
Mon May 03, 2021 1:58 am quote
Modify the crank more than the casing.

JESS, edit post seems to be not working.
Addicted
Too Many piles of Junk that need too much work and too much money
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Mon May 03, 2021 8:18 am quote
SaFiS wrote:
At the time of the discount it was around 150Ä (115Ä now) and Iím already on reeds on my current motor. Anyways...

Jack, no autolube (frame is premix). I also donít have all the necessary bits. Yes, kit is the sport, will measure again. No problem on doing some work on the rotary (say 10mm at the back, 2mm at the front??). I have a Polini venturi but Iíd like to keep the bellows...

@GeekLion: http://ddog.at/stz/rechnen.php
Thank you Safis! I have been looking for this exact link! My calculator is getting worn out. Much appreciated!
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2257
Location: Veria, Greece
Mon May 03, 2021 1:52 pm quote
New measurements. Rotary is 55 degrees. And if I can avoid messing with the crank, I'd rather open up the pad. Also, what about packers??



Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2749
Location: London UK
Mon May 03, 2021 2:39 pm quote
Is your inlet 108/77 already? Bit of a sporty crank at 77. Can you take 15 degrees out the back of the pad? Will give 123/77 then. Measure with a degree wheel and be sure. After this 15 degree cutting the casings will never run a stock cylinder.

For your cobra pipe max power is at 194/130/32. Now this is going to be more than your carb can handle and all the power would be over 7000rpm. Start by doing the bare minimum grinding.

For the packer I would start with a 0.8mm base. This should leave 0.75mm of piston poking out. Depending on the head you have it will likely need a head gasket, to get a 1.0mm squish clearance. Slightly less if possible.

This will leave the exhaust a little low for the pipe to work, so grind the 0.7mm up to leave 32mm. Follow the same top shape. Leave the width the same. This will put it at 185/128.7/28.3
Should go nice. I would run a vortex on bellows, no filter anywhere.
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2963
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon May 03, 2021 3:07 pm quote
Looking forward to seeing Safis tackle a jack tuning! I'm sure this one is going to be a great running bike and I can't wait to see some riding video of this.
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2257
Location: Veria, Greece
Mon May 03, 2021 3:08 pm quote
Yes, 108/77 is as is. Maybe the crank's a bit sportier than we wanted it??

This is the crank...
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/long-stroke-crankshaft-polini_45121000

Stock cylinder?? What is this??

Following this setup, will it work later, let's say with a big box exhaust (Pipe Design, LTH, etc.) or not?? If not, maybe a compromise then??
Ossessionato
VSX, Stella 177, VNX1T, V9B1T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2963
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon May 03, 2021 3:11 pm quote
SaFiS wrote:
Yes, 108/77 is as is. Maybe the crank's a bit sportier than we wanted it??

This is the crank...
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/long-stroke-crankshaft-polini_45121000

Stock cylinder?? What is this??

Following this setup, will it work later, let's say with a big box exhaust (Pipe Design, LTH, etc.) or not?? If not, maybe a compromise then??
This is the same one I have on my incomplete p200 build and Jack was suggesting the same.. too sporty for my intended purpose. End result, did the same you are discussing.. took it out of the pad and hoping it isn't going to fall flat when finally running. But I am using it with a sip road 2 with a stock barrel slightly tuned. Your cobra pipe and top end might be better suited for it.
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