Modern Vespa

I think my mazzy bell crank has twisted on my P221. I was out for a ride at the end of November and while returning home, the engine started misbehaving. Flywheel seems to be rubbing on the stator. To be honest, I pushed it really hard, cause I needed a huge dose of "vespa-crack". Being also tired with chasing the jetting on the PWK, I decided to go back to a rotary valve motor and do a "mild" tune. Initially, I was going to use my old cases and just weld a plate inside the gearbox but my wallet was a bit itchy, after the Christmas bonus. The Malossi V-One cases are on discount on the official Malossi store, including free shipping, so I've bitten the bullet. A Polini longstroke crank and a SI26/26 are already here. The 210 Sport stays along with the Cobra...

I'm currently contemplating if I should weld a plate in the new cases or leave them as they are, while waiting for them...

More updates to come...

What damage did you do that you need a plate welded on the gearbox?

It was done as a precaution to avoid cracks on the primary shaft and cases failing as a consequence...

This is from my current reed cases...

Well, that plate will be easier to weld in if the cases haven't been contaminated with oil.

Safis - don't the v1 cases you bought come pre-reinforced?
Do malossi cases need a plate like you used in your old p200 cases?

Unfortunate but exactly what happened to mine a few months ago. I got the crank straightened and am still running it. I did buy another crank at the same time but that's now a spare.

I see why you want to go back to rotary but is still a highly non standard carb set up. Setting up the PWK is not impossible. Buying a simpler carb might have been cheaper.

Malossi cases are thicker where it matters and probably need flex where they are not. If you don't want your old reed casings I'll have them!

that plate is a really cool idea, had never seen that

This got me thinking about cranks in high hp reed motors. There are more expensive options like the Uncle Tom from SIP or the Kingwelle. Are they physically stronger and more resistant to twisting, or does the higher price have more to do with flow and power?

So, I shouldn't weld the plate then. Supposedly they are reinforced but if I recall, FMP's review said otherwise. Anyways that will be a decision when they arrive. Jack, don't know if I'm going to sell the reed cases or keep them. I'll let you know, although shipping to the UK could be a bit expensive. Anyways, I'll update the thread when the cases arrive...

I will be watching this one with interest SaFis, I have a set of V-One cases and getting ready to build a long stroke setup with Malossi 210 Sport. Are you going to run standard gearing?

With Malossi and Pinasco both making cases, is there a specific reason you chose Malossi cases?

Malossi is better overall. They use 8mm bolts instead the stud-nut combo, modern sealing surfaces (no gasket), ports are ready for their cylinders, can work with all crankshafts.

Pinasco has/had quality issues with tolerances in the bearings seats, too much casting porosity resulting in air leaks and lately they became so greedy that they changed the rotary pad width so as to make you buy their crankshafts cause they're the only ones that can work with the cases. And Pinasco is basically just a marketing name nowadays. The company was sold a few years ago...

Cases came today. Really nice but packaging was terrible. The kickstart area broke through the box and was hit a few times during transportation. Thankfully no harm done. Sent Malossi a "nice" email...

Safis
Very (very) cool.
Question: how does the inlet size look compared to a stock P200?
Is the case flowed better between the inlet and the cylinder base - or pretty similar to stock P2?

Haven't cracked them open yet, but rotary and flow is basically "stockish" according to tech info. Only difference is the ports that are ready for the Malossi cylinders...

Wow - beautiful. This'll be fun to watch.

Pretty stuff

Excited to see this project!

The V1 is basically the same as the original casing, just with a different port layout?

What's up with the mixture screw on the Spaco carb? I modified mine so it was a screw - shortened it, and cut a groove into it. It has a different thread pattern than the Dellorto one.

I didn't understand the purpose. It sticks out, so the rubber cover doesn't fit, and has a hex head, which is basically impossible to adjust. Very tight for a socket or a flat wrench.

The carb is otherwise identical to Dellorto.

Cases cracked open. As seen on a few reviews, the "solution" they use during the CNC process is all over the cases (they don't dry them) and it's probably what corrodes the bolts and the dowel pins. Made a dummy bearing and tried on the Polini crank. I also have to file down all the razor sharp edges. Two sets of studs came in the box, engine rubber mounts and the wider axle bearing. Haven't heard back from Malossi, cause guess what, their mailbox is full (seriously??). I've send them a message on FB. Let's see if they'll care to answer...

Few photos...

Hearing the same things here... a handful of local riders have brought a bunch of the pinasco cases... they're super hit and Miss with the material quality... and they always seem to need modifying... alignment pins, bolt holes... stator plate not being able to screw into place... just to name a few

Yes, that happened to my VR1 cases when I received them too... a little bit of a file and sand and they were good as new?! haha!! The one bit of advice I can give you is to use an oversized kickstart o ring as my mates leaked when he used a std sized one. mine has been as tight as a drum. Funny you should mention going back to rotary, sick of trying to tune, I've gone back to my trusty 221 SI24, I'm back in love with rotary!! Even retained the elec start :)

Those built-in degree marks might be my favorite feature

Stuart: Man, yours was abused. What the hell?? Malossi responded to my message. Yeah, we'll inform our packaging department. Not even a sorry, we were eating pasta when we packaged your cases. And thanks for the tip...

mike: I wish this was the case. I think it's just how they cast them...

those are some sexy cases, for real....

So, while waiting for parts, I started preparing the cases. Well, props to Malossi for screwing up the CNC process. Some cases have been machined deeper than they should where the silent blocks go, so spacers, instead of washers are required. BGM is selling a set but I decided to make mine on our "new" old lathe...

BGM's set...
https://www.scooter-center.com/en/spacer-set-for-silentblock-engine-bgm-pro-w-7.5mm-vespa-px125-200-vespa-rally200-vse1t-2nd-series-used-for-motor-housing-malossi-v-one/vr-one-bgm7952sp?number=BGM7952SP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kFuJadcyVo

Caused a good chuckle.

Love the lathe work.
Deep rooted lathe jealousy.
What a nice tool to have in the shop to play with.

Watching this one closely - interested to see if you are satisfied with the return to rotary.

-CM

Last piece of the puzzle is here. Static, AC version of the SIP Vape that I'll be combining with the AC/DC Ducati regulator I already run. Took off the cylinder of the old motor and took the first measurements. Jack, what's your take on it?? As mentioned I'll be using a SI26 (basically 25) so we don't want to outgrow it. And the Cobra stays...

Every time you post - I will come back and watch the crank case driven lathe.
That is pretty spectacular.
I hope you have a handle bar gear change lever mounted to it and a clutch.

Interested to see what you decide to do with timings my brother in rotary.

A few things first, are you having autolube on the 26/26 (25)? I would.
Can you get the rotary duration up a bit? If cutting the case, it looks like it has width potential too. 185 is on the low side. 195 to 200 better.
Cylinder is a sport kit? Those measurements need to be a little more accurate. At least one decimal place. Can you measure again?

Still going to have to go through a non standard jetting set up but easier than the needle carb before. You have a vortex for the carb? It's already outgrown the stock type filter.

Great updates SAfis!

Silly and probably stupid question - where can I find this timing calculator?

For $25 more you could of had the VRONE cases and not had to worry about rotary timing!

At the time of the discount it was around 150EUR (115EUR now) and I'm already on reeds on my current motor. Anyways...

Jack, no autolube (frame is premix). I also don't have all the necessary bits. Yes, kit is the sport, will measure again. No problem on doing some work on the rotary (say 10mm at the back, 2mm at the front??). I have a Polini venturi but I'd like to keep the bellows...

GeekLion: http://ddog.at/stz/rechnen.php

Measure the rotary in degrees before cutting anything. Aim for 125/75 this will be more sport touring kind of timing. Don't take either number any longer.

Modify the crank more than the casing.

JESS, edit post seems to be not working.

Thank you Safis! I have been looking for this exact link! My calculator is getting worn out. Much appreciated!

New measurements. Rotary is 55 degrees. And if I can avoid messing with the crank, I'd rather open up the pad. Also, what about packers??

Is your inlet 108/77 already? Bit of a sporty crank at 77. Can you take 15 degrees out the back of the pad? Will give 123/77 then. Measure with a degree wheel and be sure. After this 15 degree cutting the casings will never run a stock cylinder.

For your cobra pipe max power is at 194/130/32. Now this is going to be more than your carb can handle and all the power would be over 7000rpm. Start by doing the bare minimum grinding.

For the packer I would start with a 0.8mm base. This should leave 0.75mm of piston poking out. Depending on the head you have it will likely need a head gasket, to get a 1.0mm squish clearance. Slightly less if possible.

This will leave the exhaust a little low for the pipe to work, so grind the 0.7mm up to leave 32mm. Follow the same top shape. Leave the width the same. This will put it at 185/128.7/28.3
Should go nice. I would run a vortex on bellows, no filter anywhere.

Looking forward to seeing Safis tackle a jack tuning! I'm sure this one is going to be a great running bike and I can't wait to see some riding video of this.

Yes, 108/77 is as is. Maybe the crank's a bit sportier than we wanted it??

This is the crank...
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/long-stroke-crankshaft-polini_45121000

Stock cylinder?? What is this??

Following this setup, will it work later, let's say with a big box exhaust (Pipe Design, LTH, etc.) or not?? If not, maybe a compromise then??

This is the same one I have on my incomplete p200 build and Jack was suggesting the same.. too sporty for my intended purpose. End result, did the same you are discussing.. took it out of the pad and hoping it isn't going to fall flat when finally running. But I am using it with a sip road 2 with a stock barrel slightly tuned. Your cobra pipe and top end might be better suited for it.