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Px200
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Hi guys I'm new to the page but have followed some conversation in the past . Great stuff.
I recently seized again with my px 221 malossi
Set up :
Malossi 210 - 2013
Mazzucchelli 60mm mushroom shaped
Jl rh pipe
30 mm dell'orto
Malossi reed

Last 2 times I seized I had a failed , (chunk came off ) Of Crank case seal That got stuck in in the piston, and I let you imagine the conclusion.
Is anyone of you guys have had this problem before?
First seizure balanced shaft, was a tick out, this time haven't fully open case yet but top end is off and can see damages including the seal stuck in the cylinder port.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
@greasy125 avatar
UTC

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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Sergeant at Arms
@greasy125 avatar
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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actually can't see much of anything. maybe a little bit wider shot?

and what's the actual question? i mean, besides has anybody else seized or blowed up a performance motor?

-g
@mjrally avatar
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I've seen two times the metal clutch side seals come out of the case and tear up/shatter. If that's what you're dealing with you could try a smear of white loctite/cement so it stays put.
OP
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Px200
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MJRally wrote:
I've seen two times the metal clutch side seals come out of the case and tear up/shatter. If that's what you're dealing with you could try a smear of white loctite/cement so it stays put.
Yes that's especially what's is happening to me engine.
The question is why is happening?
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Px200
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MJRally wrote:
I've seen two times the metal clutch side seals come out of the case and tear up/shatter. If that's what you're dealing with you could try a smear of white loctite/cement so it stays put.
Picture is to show That the seal is gone from a close engine.
And the question is why is happening?
Is it because crankshaft is ot of balance or other possible reason?
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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Px200
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MJRally wrote:
I've seen two times the metal clutch side seals come out of the case and tear up/shatter. If that's what you're dealing with you could try a smear of white loctite/cement so it stays put.
Picture is to show That the seal is gone from a close engine.
And the question is why is happening?
Is it because crankshaft is ot of balance or other possible reason?
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
OP
UTC

Member
Px200
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UTC quote
MJRally wrote:
I've seen two times the metal clutch side seals come out of the case and tear up/shatter. If that's what you're dealing with you could try a smear of white loctite/cement so it stays put.
Picture is to show That the seal is gone from a close engine.
And the question is why is happening?
Is it because crankshaft is ot of balance or other possible reason?
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181, PX125 and some motorbikes
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Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181, PX125 and some motorbikes
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This is one of the problems with performance engines. When the metal clutch side seal comes out the first time, something may have been wrong with it. Twice and its the casing. Its never the crank.
If it was a metal Corteco seal its more likely to come loose. The metal Malossi ones fit tighter. You're not the first; this has happened plenty of times.
Now you have had two seals come out, there are no more metal seal choices for you. If when you split the engine its all generally ok, the best chance of a seal holding in is a full rubber seal with a flat edge. And stuck in with Loctite 603.
@mjrally avatar
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In the future when you need to install oil seals, buy this bearing tool and use it to help install the seals. I've found it works better than another else to get the seal in tight (both metal and rubber) and get it flush. Works great with either type of seal especially those pesky metal lipped ones
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UTC quote
MJRally wrote:
In the future when you need to install oil seals, buy this bearing tool and use it to help install the seals. I've found it works better than another else to get the seal in tight (both metal and rubber) and get it flush. Works great with either type of seal especially those pesky metal lipped ones
I 100% second this. I use that same bearing punch along with Loctite 603 on all those metal seals and it works great.
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Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 PK125XL Elestart, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
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@safis avatar
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That SIP tool is not "right" though. I have it and it's smaller than the seal and the bearing's OD. It's only useful for installing the bearing in the cases. Also, newer metal seals need to protrude 0,5mm or they'll rub on the bearing center race and pop out. I had to make a tool for fitting them. Plus Loctite 603...
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GL, PK, PE200 with hack, Sears Rust Badge
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Do you have super strong clutch springs? Those springs may not help the clutch bearing and seal either.
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Px200
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Thanks guys.
These are great tools.
I have been thinking about purchase some thing like that.

I feel better now in a way as I'm not the only one with this problem and for me opens the door at more specific handlings.
Thanks for the info very much appreciate your guys time .

Last time I rebuild this engine (last year) i believe I didn't grind back that metal seal.
Would that make it pop out?

Also I have noticed that the seal has been rubbing on to the bearing because of marks behind.
So should I try one more time?
Grind it back and loctite 603?

If not where would I get the rubber seal? To any bearing place ?
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UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181, PX125 and some motorbikes
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UTC quote
Antoniotriopx wrote:
So should I try one more time?
No.

Here is a picture I have seen many times. That is a metal viton Corteco seal. They are not really the best choice for a tuned engine.

Now your engine has spun 2 seals the engine casing is now damaged. It's not the end of the world. There is a long list of options.
The next thing to try is a full rubber seal. The BGM one is the tightest fit I have found.
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One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
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You don't say what year your scooter is. If the crankcase has the groove, it would have used the full rubber type oil seal. I can second the advise to use the BGM seal. I used one in my MHR221 build, which turns out had the groove where the seal fits. I had tried to use a Corteco brown metal one, but couldn't get it in without distorting it's outer edge

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/oil-seal-31x62-1x5-8/4-3mm-bgm-pro-fkm/viton-e10/etahnol-resistant-rubber-brown-used-for-crankshaft-drive-side-vespa-px-1984-rally180-vsd1t-rally200-vse1t-sprint-veloce-150-vlb1t-294260-super150-vbc1t-412374-ts-vnl3t-bgm1004?number=BGM1004
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rowdyc wrote:
Do you have super strong clutch springs? Those springs may not help the clutch bearing and seal either.
I have the original clutch with Malossi springs and discs
I also have the cosa clutch but not install because I haven't been able to get it to work properly
@ginch avatar
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74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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UTC quote
Pretty sure it's Freakmoped who says all the metal seals need to be ground a little on the edge to make sure they don't touch either the crank or the bearing. I was under the impression the Malossi ones don't need it however.

There is also available from Scooter Center some shims to hold the clutch side bearing tight and not move sideways at all.

You can buy the rubber seal from GPS Imports in Vic.
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Hi!

Are you sure that metal seal is the correct for that casing?

There are two versions of the casings. -with and without "lip" where the sealing sits.

If there is a small groove where the sealing sits, you have to use the rubber ones, not metal ones.
-and vice versa.

In addition the metal sealings are normally too thick, so I normally grind them down a milimeter or two. -can't recall the exact number, but google probably do.
-then you're sure that the sealing is flush with the crankhouse and not interfering with the bearing...

All the best and good luck!

Ø
Antoniotriopx wrote:
Thanks guys.
These are great tools.
I have been thinking about purchase some thing like that.

I feel better now in a way as I'm not the only one with this problem and for me opens the door at more specific handlings.
Thanks for the info very much appreciate your guys time .

Last time I rebuild this engine (last year) i believe I didn't grind back that metal seal.
Would that make it pop out?

Also I have noticed that the seal has been rubbing on to the bearing because of marks behind.
So should I try one more time?
Grind it back and loctite 603?

If not where would I get the rubber seal? To any bearing place ?
OP
UTC

Member
Px200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8
Location: Sydney
 
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Px200
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UTC quote
Svint1 wrote:
Hi!

Are you sure that metal seal is the correct for that casing?

There are two versions of the casings. -with and without "lip" where the sealing sits.

If there is a small groove where the sealing sits, you have to use the rubber ones, not metal ones.
-and vice versa.

In addition the metal sealings are normally too thick, so I normally grind them down a milimeter or two. -can't recall the exact number, but google probably do.
-then you're sure that the sealing is flush with the crankhouse and not interfering with the bearing...

All the best and good luck!

Ø
Actually you have a super valid point.
My vespa engine is a 1985 Built so i just found out that it's the rubber seal the correct one..
I have been sold for 4 times the wrong one ( metal one)🤐
The crank is out and It is being Correte and Tig welding.
Hopefully my nightmares are over soon.
Antoniotriopx wrote:
Thanks guys.
These are great tools.
I have been thinking about purchase some thing like that.

I feel better now in a way as I'm not the only one with this problem and for me opens the door at more specific handlings.
Thanks for the info very much appreciate your guys time .

Last time I rebuild this engine (last year) i believe I didn't grind back that metal seal.
Would that make it pop out?

Also I have noticed that the seal has been rubbing on to the bearing because of marks behind.
So should I try one more time?
Grind it back and loctite 603?

If not where would I get the rubber seal? To any bearing place ?
@108 avatar
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Ossessionato
V range 50s
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V range 50s
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UTC quote
Ginch wrote:
Pretty sure it's Freakmoped who says all the metal seals need to be ground a little on the edge to make sure they don't touch either the crank or the bearing. I was under the impression the Malossi ones don't need it however.

There is also available from Scooter Center some shims to hold the clutch side bearing tight and not move sideways at all.

You can buy the rubber seal from GPS Imports in Vic.
Yeah, you need to grind the metal seal down as the gents here are mentioning... I aim for 3.6mm height of the whole seal (not the sealing surface, that's like 3.4mm or something... there's a slight angle to the seal)

And before installing the crank, you can check if the bearing is rubbing on the seal by just turning it...
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