Molto Verboso
1961 VS5T, 1981 P200E, 2003 Malaguti F12 Phantom,Rigid Frame Chopper, 2001 Harley FXDXT
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I'm really looking forward to which route you go and if a new setup, how it compares in performance to the old one.
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Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181, PX125 and some motorbikes
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chandlerman wrote: As to the Mazzi bell, I simply don't trust Mazzi cranks at this point. I'd rather pay more and not worry, plus deny them the sale. I'm curious on your decision process for bell vs. full circle since the M1XL is direct intake. Is it that the bell gives higher crankcase volume, which benefits the lower RPM ranges? I'm less interested in peak power than I am in broad power band, which would align with the bell crank, right? And given the lack of 60mm/110 rod options, would I be bonkers going with a 62mm crank, even knowing I have to grind out the crankcase wall? The PX crank case volume is too small. It was too small when designed for the original 150 and still too small, some 70 odd years later. How can one crankcase volume be correct for an 80, 125, 200 and a 244......it isn't. T5 is different cases. Reed valve, longer rod and bell make more volume. As you say. Mid range where it matters is suddenly better, when running high transfers. 62 and 64 cranks are harder to set up in 57mm cylinders. Also the max rpm ceiling is lower, and lower still. Less rpm is not what we're here for. |
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Circling back to he 60mm Pinasco but the P200 compatible option:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/long-stroke-crankshaft-pinasco-25080827-vespa-200-rally-vse1t-33997-p200e-px200-e-lusso-my-cosa_45028000?usrc=60mm%20crankshaft |
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Thanks, Jack. This is all good stuff and . So it's looking more and more like a crank rebuild. I have a crank truing stand, so $35 in parts is definitely appealing and worth the effort compared to hundreds of dollars for a new crank.
I need to go back and re-read my Bell & my Jennings about piston velocity and stroke. It's not something that I normally give a lot of thought to, because I normally just install a 60mm and go on with my wrenching. This puts me with my crank rebuilt and the M1XL on the top end, keeping the rest as-is. That's a lot more tolerable project, cost-wise, too. Now I may throw some Moto Tassinari reeds into the cart, too... |
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 PK125XL Elestart, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
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Birdsnest wrote: Circling back to he 60mm Pinasco but the P200 compatible option: https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/long-stroke-crankshaft-pinasco-25080827-vespa-200-rally-vse1t-33997-p200e-px200-e-lusso-my-cosa_45028000?usrc=60mm%20crankshaft If you're looking for a 200 rotary crank, SIP (Primatist) cranks are the best cranks atm… https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/long-stroke-crankshaft-sip-premium-vespa-200-rally-vse1t-33997-p200e-px200-e-lusso-my-cosa_45021510 https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/long-stroke-crankshaft-sip-performance-vespa-200-rally-vse1t-33997-p200e-px200-e-lusso-my-cosa_45021610 |
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Birdsnest wrote: Circling back to he 60mm Pinasco but the P200 compatible option: https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/long-stroke-crankshaft-pinasco-25080827-vespa-200-rally-vse1t-33997-p200e-px200-e-lusso-my-cosa_45028000?usrc=60mm%20crankshaft 1) It's for a rotary, not reed intake 2) it's a Pinasco product Edit: SaFiS beat me to it |
Not So Moderator
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SaFiS wrote: This crank is even worse than a Mazzy. Out of the box needs balancing, welding and machining of the flywheel. Had two customers that insisted on them, cone was machined deeper on both and the flywheel sealing groove would catch on the cases… If you're looking for a 200 rotary crank, SIP (Primatist) cranks are the best cranks atm… https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/long-stroke-crankshaft-sip-premium-vespa-200-rally-vse1t-33997-p200e-px200-e-lusso-my-cosa_45021510 https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/long-stroke-crankshaft-sip-performance-vespa-200-rally-vse1t-33997-p200e-px200-e-lusso-my-cosa_45021610 Good to know. Real world exp with this stuff always helps. Anybody know what happened to Tameni? I thought they used to make some quality stuff. C-man... sorry I forgot you were reed on the GL. |
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181, PX125 and some motorbikes
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chandlerman wrote: Thanks, Jack. This is all good stuff and . So it's looking more and more like a crank rebuild. I have a crank truing stand, so $35 in parts is definitely appealing and worth the effort compared to hundreds of dollars for a new crank. I need to go back and re-read my Bell & my Jennings about piston velocity and stroke. It's not something that I normally give a lot of thought to, because I normally just install a 60mm and go on with my wrenching. This puts me with my crank rebuilt and the M1XL on the top end, keeping the rest as-is. That's a lot more tolerable project, cost-wise, too. Now I may throw some Moto Tassinari reeds into the cart, too... |
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I have collected enough used but serviceable bearings to build a crank measuring stand. It's on my list of things to build.
I don't hear much about rebuilding Vespa cranks, probably because most of them are cheap enough that's it's not cost effective. But it really starts to make sense when you have an expensive performance crank that will either go in the garbage or sit on your shelf forever. I guess you would need access to a press. Wondering if the HF 20 ton would do it. Something you would find a lot of use for. When you get a new hammer, you find a lot more nails to pound. I don't trust a new crank to be straight out of the box. Especially when the crank is actually busting itself out of the box by the time it gets to your door. |
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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orwell84 wrote: I have collected enough used but serviceable bearings to build a crank measuring stand. It's on my list of things to build. I don't hear much about rebuilding Vespa cranks, probably because most of them are cheap enough that's it's not cost effective. But it really starts to make sense when you have an expensive performance crank that will either go in the garbage or sit on your shelf forever. I guess you would need access to a press. Wondering if the HF 20 ton would do it. Something you would find a lot of use for. When you get a new hammer, you find a lot more nails to pound. I don't trust a new crank to be straight out of the box. Especially when the crank is actually busting itself out of the box by the time it gets to your door. I decided to just send the crank out to Hot Rod Al for the rebuild. I'll figure out rebuilding my own cranks at some point, but I'd probably need a cheap or free hydraulic press to fall in my lap first. Having a crank rebuilt is significantly cheaper than buying a new one, other than the bottom-of-the-barrel costs. Jack221 wrote: The M1XL manifold is sized for a 34mm carb and the vforce reed block format is CR85. If you're going to dremel the cylinder for an expansion you'll need both of these. I'm not planning on any serious dremeling of the cylinder to start. If I decide I want more power once it's on the road, that's a new exhaust and I'm planning to do this as on the cheap as possible. I'll stick with the existing Malossi box, and maybe drop the cash for a new exhaust next spring if I decide I want it. What I want to avoid is another bike that's so loud I feel guilty riding it through my neighborhood, no matter how fast it is. |
Molto Verboso
1961 VS5T, 1981 P200E, 2003 Malaguti F12 Phantom,Rigid Frame Chopper, 2001 Harley FXDXT
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What I want to avoid is another bike that's so loud I feel guilty riding it through my neighborhood, no matter how fast it is.
[/quote] It's definitely impressive to here a scooter sound like yours. Here you on the good neighbor etiquette. It's clearly not a 3am scoot. By the sound of your video my dirtbike has a quarter of the decibels yours puts out! 😆 |
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Parts are finally ordered. The Quattrini M1XL, along with the matching VForce reeds and a full circle Malossi crank.
Probably two weeks out from assembly, if I had to guess, but things are on the move again.
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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It's finally happening after two months of faffing about between FedEx and SIP. Malossi full circle 60mm 110 rod (P200) crank, Quattrini M1XL (direct intake), VForce3 reeds.
I'll probably start with a 30mm carb, since I have one and that's what the intake manifold is designed for, but if the carb calc says more, don't be surprised if I don't fabricate a larger intake manifold like I did for the Lammy. Tonight was just prep work. I cleaned up the cases, installed the new main bearings, and started the blanking plate for the old intake. Barring discovery that I forgot to order a part, I see no reason I wont have a runner this weekend.
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Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181, PX125 and some motorbikes
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This has been a while but worth the wait. Fitting it out the box as is, or working the exhaust port a little?
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Jack221 wrote: This has been a while but worth the wait. Fitting it out the box as is, or working the exhaust port a little? I know you re-worked your exhaust, but don't recall what you did to it. |
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181, PX125 and some motorbikes
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chandlerman wrote: No decisions on that until I have some measurements to work with. I know you re-worked your exhaust, but don't recall what you did to it. |
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Tonight I checked the gear/cruciform alignment, then buttoned up the cases. Also fabricated and installed the blanking plate for the old intake.
I realized I only had one M7 bolt for the blanking plate, so I improvised with with a carb stud and will replace it with a proper bolt once I get to the hardware store. Next up will be fitting the new top end, port timing, and then sealing it up for the always nerve-wracking first pressure test. Assuming it holds, I'll finish up the motor and get it in the bike this weekend. I'm also in the process of resin casting a 34mm stuffer for the reed block. The Moto Tassinari comes with a 30mm stuffer, which is fine and all, but I want one for my 34mm, too, without grinding out the 30mm, which means I need another. I'll probably start with a PWK30, then go to the 34 to see what sort of difference it makes. I'm going to cast a 34mm stuffer for the Lammy, too, since I have the resin casting stuff out. The right part is the wrong part. How ironic.
All formed up and nothing to pour
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chandlerman wrote: Tonight I checked the gear/cruciform alignment, then buttoned up the cases. Also fabricated and installed the blanking plate for the old intake. I realized I only had one M7 bolt for the blanking plate, so I improvised with with a carb stud and will replace it with a proper bolt once I get to the hardware store. Next up will be fitting the new top end, port timing, and then sealing it up for the always nerve-wracking first pressure test. Assuming it holds, I'll finish up the motor and get it in the bike this weekend. I'm also in the process of resin casting a 34mm stuffer for the reed block. The Moto Tassinari comes with a 30mm stuffer, which is fine and all, but I want one for my 34mm, too, without grinding out the 30mm, which means I need another. I'll probably start with a PWK30, then go to the 34 to see what sort of difference it makes. I'm going to cast a 34mm stuffer for the Lammy, too, since I have the resin casting stuff out. Putting together an engine doesn't really take all that long, but the parts hunting and waiting for shipping can feel like an eternity. Then you find little widgets you are missing, obvious stuff you forgot and the onset of the jaundiced eye, that compels you to reject sketchy parts you thought were passable. I am putting my VR-1 engine now, even though it will be at least 7 months before I ride it…just so I don't lose any parts. |
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
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I think I've melted enough pistons for one lifetime, thank you.
The biggest parts risk on this rebuild was that while waiting for the replacement parts, I'd lose something along the way. As a result, I have basically put a big chunk of my workshop "off limits," including my scooter lift, for almost three months for that exact reason. Nothing turned up missing thus far, so now it's down to installing the top end and getting port timings and squish right. Not having the base or head gaskets I need is the big risk, and I will probably go ahead and finish the build, even if I need to order more and re-do the top end next weekend. Past that, it's plug n' play. No electrical mysteries or wiring harness mating rituals, everything fits together because it all worked when it came apart.. I did forget to add the fuel pump nipple onto my blanking plate, so I have to do that, but that's not critical path and will only take a few minutes. I need to replace the one bolt anyway, so it's technically a single bolt, then drilling and tapping, so extra-easy! |
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181, PX125 and some motorbikes
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Why didn't you use the supplied blanking plate?
The carb sits right on top of the blanking plate. Any increase in height is in the way. With my vhsb34 even low profile bolts were needed. |
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
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Jack221 wrote: Why didn't you use the supplied blanking plate? The carb sits right on top of the blanking plate. Any increase in height is in the way. With my vhsb34 even low profile bolts were needed. |
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Continuing work on the M1XL.
The intake manifold that came with the kit is...how can put this kindly...not up Quattrini standards, IMO. It's supposed to be 30mm, but much of the intake was only 27-28mm in diameter, along with having no effort to put an inner radius into it, just two right angle tubes. And the built in stuffer doesn't fit with the VForce reed, so So I wound up spending last night cutting off the stuffer, cleaning up the interior passage, and then lapping the base to fix where I gouged it with my grinder. (And Jack, the included blanking plate is for a rotary, no LML reed intake, so I was making my own plate either way) substandard, IMO
substandard, IMO
better
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Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181, PX125 and some motorbikes
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I spent best part of a day doing the same on my manifold too. Opening it up took ages. And the vforce stuffer is way too small. But the reed block is for a honda CR80, so not exactly massive for a 181.
I put the fuel pump spigot in the reed block, while I was at it. Lml case should be easier to match the base, I would guess. How's bolt on port timings on yours? |
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
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I guess I feel better knowing it's not just me that's underwhelmed by the quality of the supporting parts of Quattini's kits.
If I'd noticed it before I was doing final assembly, I'd have cleaned up the joint between the reed block and the cylinder, too, but as it was (already sealed), I'll just live with it. I wound up with 125TD/175ED/24BD for my timings. Squish at 1.2mm. I see what you mean about raising the exhaust. Still, nothing I can't live with given that I'm running a Malossi box on this one. I'd rather trade a little power for a little less noise on this build. If I want loud, I'll ride the Boobadge Next up is pressure test and, assuming that goes well, bolting on the clutch & flywheel/stator and stuffing it back in the bike. nice lips. Not.
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Meh. Pressure test failed at the case-spacer. Good news is that the seals and everything else look like they're passing, so I went ahead and did the rest of the assembly except the exhaust, which will happen after the motor is in the bike anyway just because it's easier that way..
The re-sealed RTV is now curing and I'll give it another shot, probably doing The Right Thing and waiting until morning. That spot had leaked in the past. It's where I did some VERY ugly case welding a while back. Enough surface to seal (3mm or so), but apparently problematic just the same. I should really just buy a new set of cases, but that probably won't happen until the next rebuild. |
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181, PX125 and some motorbikes
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When I first got my 172 kit, I just bolted it on, straight out the box on a 57/105 crank. All edges and rough manifold, Vhsh30 carb and bullet exhaust. I wanted to break it in and see what it was like. First time wot on the motorway it spotted 73mph. Now with the exhaust port done, all smoother 34mm carb, vforce reeds, 60/110 crank and it's 9 mph quicker. As usual a lot of effort for not so much.
Edit: forgot, entire new gearbox (23/64) and lightened flywheel too ⚠️ Last edited by Jack221 on UTC; edited 1 time
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
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Sounds like I'm about where you are other than the exhaust port. I'm even going with a 34mm carb. It'll be interesting to see how close it comes to yours without that improvement.
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Jet Eye Master
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Will be interesting to see how yours goes on a box exhaust. Matches well with the stock port timing.
What gear ratios you using to begin with? |
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
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Jack221 wrote: Will be interesting to see how yours goes on a box exhaust. Matches well with the stock port timing. What gear ratios you using to begin with? I need to re-check pressure after letting everything cure overnight. |
Jet Eye Master
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chandlerman wrote: For gearing, 65/22 and PX150 free gears. I need to re-check pressure after letting everything cure overnight. No leaks and will be running tomorrow |
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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Jack221 wrote: 65 ring gear gives flexibility, so that's good. PX150 EFL style box often had a 35 tooth, if you already have a 36 in, that's good too. No leaks and will be running tomorrow I added sealing surface there with JBWeld at some point and it looks like it broke off. Probably also be the root cause of the previous top end failing, too. I just rebuilt it with weld, hand-decking with a file so came in long enough to pour another cup of coffee and let the machinist's blue dry for final confirmation. Since I have a fiber gasket in the base stack, I'm going to put it on the bottom for maximum sealing on the base, then button it up again and hope for the best. Edit: I'm running the 35t, but not going to change that now. Doh!
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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It's running!
After the second cylinder base leak, I decided to fix it right and built up the face with weld instead of JBWeld, then filed it down to get a good deck surface. Put it all back together with sealant, waited a couple hours, tested again...and failed again. But when I went looking for the leak, it was all good. Finally, I checked the air hose...and found the leak. So I went for it. Motor back in the bike, determined I need to replace some cables, in particular the throttle and rear brake, but eventually got it running, the fuel pump hooked up, and took it around the block. This thing isn't as wild as the Boo-badge, but it's going to be close. It's not as violent on the first gear wheelies, but it's the same need to jump on the clutch as soon as you hit the power band because the wheel is coming up hard. Second gear, it floats the front wheel, even when I leaned up over the headset. Until I get the cables sorted and tighten up the fork bearings, though, it won't be getting ridden a whole lot. Cables are ordered, so they should be here mid-week. In the meantime, I'll deal with the fork and give everything else the once-over. Initial jetting on the PWK34 is 168 MJ, KLJ on 1st clip, and (I think) a 55 idle. I didn't change it and it seems like it's fine, so I probably won't unless it's slow to return once the bike is good and heated up. As is often the case, it was a rocky road from "ready for first start" to "first start." Hey dude! Where's my sealing surface?
After
⚠️ Last edited by chandlerman on UTC; edited 1 time
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Molto Verboso
1961 VS5T, 1981 P200E, 2003 Malaguti F12 Phantom,Rigid Frame Chopper, 2001 Harley FXDXT
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
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BajaRob wrote: C Man, that sucker sounds like is HAS a pair! I'll be watching for the ride report. I think it's gonna be SERIOUS once the motor is set up. Not as fast as the Boo-badge, but not nearly as loud, either, so a lot more tolerable around town. (which was kind've the plan ) |
Jet Eye Master
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Sounds great. There's more tuning in that cylinder it if needed. Depends where you want it to be. As far as I know this is an old kit and still on version 1, been on sale for at least 10 years. If they ever do a version 2 it will have a much larger reed block. But 20++ bhp in bolt on ain't bad.
At least try to go easy with it until jetted in. Not easy. Good work. |
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 10518 Location: Nashville 185 Days Since Last Explosion |
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 10518 Location: Nashville 185 Days Since Last Explosion |
UTC
quote
Yeah, I was a little surprised that Quattrini hadn't done the flow model rework of the M1X like he did for the M1L60 and M200. He found an extra 40% or so more power in both those kits in that process, and there has to be a LOT more potential market demand for a shakeup like that in the largeframe world.
I started thinking about it, though, and most of the top 177-ish kits are about that old at this point. The only newer ones I can really think of are VMC, and (correct me if I'm wrong) but I thought VMC came out of the low cost world, not the high performance world, so their kits compete with the current generation of performance kits, but don't exceed them. And have some bad engineering decisions, e.g. the exhaust stub and their insistence on providing cheap-ass installation hardware. It'll be interesting to see what I ultimately wind up with for this build. I definitely have some carb tuning to do once I can install a throttle cable that doesn't want to hang at the most inopportune moments, but my baseline seems pretty good to start. I think it's going to be pretty much what I was aiming for, which is a highway-fast bike that's lighter and more nimble than the lammy, but also isn't so loud it threatens to shatter windows when I ride by. |
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 10518 Location: Nashville 185 Days Since Last Explosion |
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OP
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 10518 Location: Nashville 185 Days Since Last Explosion |
UTC
quote
Turns out I *did* have spare throttle and rear brake cables, so I installed those and went for a quick spin tonight.
Choppy at 1/4 throttle to 1/2 throttle, too rich. Good at 3/4, but a little rich again at WOT. I'm already on first clip on the needle, so I'm hoping that dropping the main to a 165 and going one diameter leaner will sort things out. Bike definitely gets the job done, though. Fun to ride and punchy as hell. Being sixty pounds lighter than the Lammy does great things for giving it some punch when you jump on the throttle, too. Finally, here's a little helmet-cam video as I was checking the initial jetting guessing.
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The Dude
Too Many piles of Junk that need too much work and too much money
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Posts: 2039 Location: PNW from LBC |
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 10518 Location: Nashville 185 Days Since Last Explosion |
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OP
Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 10518 Location: Nashville 185 Days Since Last Explosion |
UTC
quote
GeekLion wrote: Sounds good and I love the ride video! Looks like a fun ride Looking at the video again, I'm going to leave the main alone for now, probably try a richer main at some point just to see what it does. And I may need to order some more needles, too. Amazingly, there are still some I don't have. I'm not sure if that's a or a at this point. |
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Posts: 8580 Location: Hustletown, TX |
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