Modern Vespa

INITIAL POST (REVISED AFTER PURCHASE - SEE BELOW) I'm looking at a good deal on a basically new 2018 GTS300 that's been sitting for 2 or 3 years in a shed. The seller bought it new in 2018 and rode it less than 200 miles. I'm assuming no maintenance has been performed in that time. I don't even know if the gasoline has been drained - probably not. Thoughts? Potential issues?

REVISED 02/07/2021 - I bought the 2018 GTS 300... It was sadly neglected and sitting in that shed for 3.5 years (the title says it was purchased in August 2017). Shockingly it has three miles on it (that's right - the odometer says "3"). If feel like it was a steal, but I'm not going to publicly post what I paid for fear of people telling me that I took advantage of the seller. PM me if you really want to know... It wasn't doing anyone any good sitting in that shed.

The battery is dead, so I did not start it (which I didn't want to do until I changed the engine oil anyway). So, now a revision of the questions - I'm going to change the engine oil and hub oil - that's easy enough. I'm also going to change the brake fluid soon (although probably not before my first "warm up" 20 minute ride). Do I really need to change essentially unused coolant (3 miles)? It was in a sealed system in the shed for three years...

REVISED 02/28/2021 - Everything was flushed and refilled properly. The check engine light is on, though.

Drain the gas, purge the injection system. Throw a battery at it. See if it starts and runs. Check the coolant and oil levels. Check that the airfilter isn't in crumbly pieces. Put a couple miles on it and then change the oils, service it, lube everything and check the condition of the belt.

After that, go nuts.

Potential problems? Waterpump, they don't like to sit. Maybe a belt.

-g

Make sure that when you do start it up for the first time, you let it come up to temperature and stay there for at least 20 minutes, if not longer. If there's less than a quarter tank, I would go ahead and put good gas on top, rock the bike back and forth, use ether to start it, to help ignite any crap that's in the injector system, and let it idle for a good five minutes so the engine expands and oil gets everywhere it's supposed to be. Then try to ride down about half the tank and fill it again. Take your AAA card with you. Nothing is going to be better for the fuel system than running good premium gas through it. No magic beans, no seafoam, just gas and time. By bringing the engine up to temperature and keeping it there for a while, you burn off any condensation that's gotten in there.

Before you do anything, check with the county and state yourself to see if the bike hasn't been stolen, and if you can get it licensed o.k.. Nothing else matters until you are 100% sure and have officially verified it's legal. Seller's word and his paperwork means nothing.

Thanks everyone.

There is virtually no chance it's stolen. The older gentleman who bought it decided scootering wasn't for him. He has the title and is going to do a Bill of Sale. He has a verifiable name/address. If it's a scam or stolen goods I'd be surprised.

Questions about the gas in the tank.... It is about 3 years old, untreated, 10% ethanol gas (that's all we have around here). Can I just remove as much as possible with a siphon and then add fresh, new gas (versus removing/draining the tank, which I've haven't done before)?

In terms of purging the old gas from the injector - Once I've refilled the tank with fresh gas, do I just disconnect the injector at the throttle body and then turn the ignition on and off to get the fuel pump spraying new gas through the injector (and then capture the old gas from the injector in a separate container)? If so, how many times should I turn the ignition on/off?

Lastly - When I initially warm up the engine/ride the scooter for 20 minutes to burn out any condensation, is it okay to do so with the 2-3 year old coolant/engine oil still in the bike?

Check that the frame has not had any bumps and that it is aligned with the wheels .... you never know what is hidden under a tempting thing.

I would change both, having 3 year old coolant in the scooter might do more harm than good!

Are the tyres looking Ok? not cracked? If you do purchase it, it might be a good idea in the very near future to have a look at the drive belt, and perhaps changing it out for a fresh one.

Graham

Could you expand on that. Trying to figure out what things would be oiled/lubed/greased besides adding engine oil/gear oil and coolant.
What other things should be lubricated?

Check things that should be lubricated, Change engine oil and Gas. Check tires condition. Start it and take short ride and let it come in normal running condition.

Thanks again everyone... I plan to replace the gas and purge the injector, but my issue is how to do so... Here are three specific questions (beware - question 2 has three parts):

1. Can I just remove as much gas a possible with a siphon and then add fresh, new gas (versus removing/draining the tank, which I've haven't done before)?


2a. Once I've refilled the tank with fresh gas, how do I purge the injector? (see 2b for my idea)

2b. Do I just disconnect the injector at the throttle body and then turn the ignition on and off to get the fuel pump spraying the fresh gas through the injector?

2c. If so, how many times should I turn the ignition on/off to "clear" the injector of the old gas?


3. When I initially warm up the engine/ride the scooter for 20 minutes to burn out any condensation, is it okay to do so with the 2-3 year old coolant/engine oil still in the bike? ANSWERED - Change the coolant and engine oil first, and then warm the bike up and ride around to burn out condensation.

Thanks again.

1. Yes

2. Considering that the tank is plastic, (no rust in it) I really don't see the need, if the engine does start, to dick around with the injector.

After 10 minutes of running it will be fresh fuel going into the injector anyway.. You can also use injector cleaner additive if you really need to..

Ideally remove the fuel line from the injector & purge

Thanks again, everyone.

I bought the 2018 GTS 300, which I thought had less than 200 miles on it. It did have less than 200 miles on it... It had THREE (003) miles. Apparently the owner drove it once and then put it in the shed for 3.5 years. The battery is dead, so I did not start it (which I didn't want to do until I changed the engine oil anyway). I'm going to change the engine oil and hub oil before my 1st ride. I'm also going to change the brake fluid soon (although probably not before my first "warm up" 20 minute ride).

Question: Before my first ride.... Do I really need to change essentially unused coolant (3 miles) that was in a sealed system in the shed for over three years? I'll change the coolant if that's necessary to preserve the engine, but it seems kind of wasteful. It's essentially unused coolant and the system was so well sealed that I had to use pliers to get the coolant reservoir cap off. Let me know your thoughts. Thanks.

Congratulations!! Sounds like a good find.

I believe you would do well to change coolant. My understanding is the coolant includes a number of corrosion inhibitors, which degrade over time. Running the old coolant may increase risk if internal corrosion so it seems cheap insurance to replace it.

Similarly, you should flush and replace brake fluid because it absorbs water - leading to rusting and reduced effectiveness.

If it was stored in a shed be sure no critters took up residence.

Sounds good. I make make sure to change it all - engine oil, hub oil, coolant, and brake fluid before that first ride. I might swap out the air filter and I'll take a look inside the transmission case, too. It won't stop snowing here, so it's not like I'll be able to ride it anytime soon. Thanks, all.

Yes Schuman and as Berto says, I'd definitely change out the coolant. It will be quite acidic by now and will have lost all it's water pump seal lubrication properties. The coolant has been working for 3.5 years to try and keep corrosion at bay even though the bike has just been standing. It has used up mostly all it's chemicals because corrosion has been happening particularly in the engines cylinder barrel area which is cast iron. It's mainly this cast iron that causes most of the depletion of the coolants chemicals. OAT works by constantly attacking any sites of corrosion inside the engine instead of laying down a carpet of protection inside the motor as some other coolants do. This means it doesn't last as long, even if you put in a long life OAT coolant, it'll only last around two or so years in an engine with a cast iron cylinder.

I'd just order the water pump gasket neoprene seal. The screws to the water pump will undo real easy (they are nipped up to 3-4nm) and just let the coolant drain out. Using a JIS screwdriver re-tighten the screws after fitting the new gasket seal. Just remember to only do the screws up finger tight. No wrenching on them with the screwdriver. That's where folks go wrong and end up having trouble undoing them again later. Yours won't have ever been touched since leaving the factory so it'll be so easy to undo them. Doing it that way you won't have to mess with the hose clamps which can be more of a pain to re-seal again. Good luck. And yes, also change out the brake fluid as soon as you can.

Thanks again MV Forum members...Thoughts about good OAT coolant available here in the states? The OEM AGIP ENI Special Permanent can be tough to find here; don't know if it is still made or imported. Does Anyone use ENI Bike S? Will that work? Others?

As long as the specs are the same, it doesn't really matter.. Pick a colour you like from a brand you trust and go wild...

Progress and two questions:

Oil/filter, hub oil, brake fluid all changed. Coolant drained. Removed old gas and replaced with fresh, new gas. Questions:

1. I flushed the old gas from the lines by removing the gas line at the injector and purging with the new gas in the tank. Now that "clean" gas is running through the lines, do I need to do something with the injector itself?

2. The coolant in the engine was a nasty orange (rusty?) mess - see photo. The stuff that came out after the engine coolant (from the reservoir and the lines) was a lovely pink. Given that the bike has been sitting, it makes sense that the engine coolant was terrible, and the rest okay. So, should I just refill with new coolant at this point? Or is there further need to flush with distilled water before refilling?

Thanks again!

If you lived in NYC I would say just use tap water, that not being the case, get a few gallons of distilled water, run it through the engine & flush it out. That should be enough and then put the new coolant. You will have to remove the air bubbles and run the engine to get it to temp & get the fan to go, then you shall be good will generally take about 20 mins but it is not summer time so may take a bit longer to get the engine temps up.
There are a couple of videos on youtube, MicBergsma has one and RObot at Scooterwest has one, both will give you excellent steps to follow and complete the task at hand.

As baba says, just do a quick flush. You won't need to do much, just use some distilled water (2 litres). Put the water pump cover back on with the screws tightened very very lightly. Fill with distilled water using the bleed screw on the thermostat housing to bleed out most of the air. You don't need to spend much time doing that as you only want the water to be circulating in the engine for 30 to 40 seconds or so with the motor running at fast idle. So if there is a small air bubble or two it won't matter. Just don't let the engine get hot. Then let the system drain out again. It should be fairly clean, if not just do the flush one more time and repeat the engine running and bleeding operation before letting it drain again. You won't need to do anymore than that. Before you refill I'd make sure to tip the scooter carefully on the main stand, towards you (standing on the water pump side of the bike) so that when you have the water pump cover still off the engine, any remaining water in the engine comes out of the hoses connected to the water pump cover. Then just put everything back with the new water pump cover gasket and refill with new coolant.

It does just go to show how rusty the engine coolant goes after just 3 years of standing. The old coolant has been working all the time to fight corrosion and used up all it's chemicals fighting that corrosion and has now become very acidic. You've caught it all just in time before any damage is done so that's great. Looks to me like you are doing a great job Schuman and it's a great lesson for everyone, letting them see just how important regular coolant changes are.

Well done Schuman on your great find. Sounds like you are doing all the right things to get it ready for the road.

Out of curiosity, have you decided if you are going to keep it along with your 2015 GTS or are you considering selling one of them?

Thanks, again MV Forum for the advice and the encouragement. Yes, I do plan to sell the 2015 (cheap) at some point this Spring/Summer. I want to get the 2018 to 600 miles, do a Professional 1st service at a dealer, and then make sure it's running well before I sell the 2015.

I should be able to do the distilled water flush/coolant refill today. It's snowing right now, so it will be a garage job!

Is there anything else I need to do with the injector itself before starting the bike? Fresh gasoline is running through the lines, but the injector itself hasn't been touched.

Coolant was was flushed and refilled properly; brought it up to temp and the fan came on. The Vespa starts and runs well - I more than quadrupled the mileage today. It has 14 miles on the odometer now! Two issues:

1. Clutch chatter (maybe)... Is that typical for a brand new Vespa? I didn't go into the transmission at all.

2. The Check Engine light is ON which is making me crazy. I hope it's related to the evap canister or something. Other thoughts?

Thanks again!

Hi schuman, ok so that's great so far. Did the engine check light suddenly just come on while riding or has it always been on?

You should not need to do anything to the injector. If the bike is running ok without misfiring just leave the inject alone.

The engine check light is most likely just an anomaly due to some corrosion on the Lambda tip. This may just be from debris inside the engine and/or in the exhaust downpipe which has stuck on the sensor. Remember the engine has been sitting a long time and the cylinder bore will have had some light surface corrosion on it which has to go somewhere. Some of it goes in the oil but some goes out the exhaust and it can cause issues with lambdas. It will clear. However, I'd check the wiring is intact to the lambda and look for any obvious issues such as air leaks. Make sure the air filter and it's housing is sealed ok and the throttle body boot is not split and is fitted ok. It's strange what happens to bikes that are left standing for over 3 years. Once you have done that it may be worth disconnecting the battery for at least 31mins to allow the ecu to reset, then hook it back up and see what happens.

The clutch "chatter" is due to corrosion (rust) in the clutch cast iron drum (bell as most call it). It will go away after you've used the bike for a bit. If not it's a simple case of removing the bell and cleaning it out with some wire wool and give the pads the most light of light sanding down. That will fix it. Let us know how you get on. And by the way, you are experiencing all the things that most folks experience when taking over a bike that has stood unused for over 3yrs so don't worry. It'll be fine.

PS. Just check you didn't overfill the oil as that can make your engine check light come on.

Passive wear of parts, mechanical and otherwise, is quite common on modern vehicles; it worsens when the vehicle remains stationary for a long time because oxidation of the metals and depolymerization of the plastic parts are not by now calculated in the quality control parameters. The object has a predetermined duration within "normal" usage parameters. The rest is at the expense of the customer.

What did you do about the battery? Is the new one fully charged?

The Engine Management Light has always been on, as far as I've noticed, from the first time I started the bike, which was yesterday. It was on while I brought the engine up to temperature and waited for the fan to run. And it was on during my initial 10 mile ride yesterday. Other than the Engine Management Light, the bike ran flawlessly. Oil level looks good. I'll disconnect the battery and see if that clears the ECU. If not, I have a homemade PADS system (another great MV forum thread) that I can hook up to read the ECU error codes. Thank you, all.

The Check Engine light is sensitive to low battery voltage. If the new battery wasn't fully charged initially or has been sitting for the three or four weeks since you started this thread, the ECU may be unhappy. With a multimeter, check that the battery is at about 12.7 volts, at least.

The Check Engine light is most likely an evap issue. I have had that happen to me several times, generally cuz I had overfilled. You can open the gas cap release pressure and for me the light has gone off after a few days of riding.
As for the clutch chatter, if the vehicle is moving smoothly, then I'd wait and see, ride it around and don't go over whatever is normal for breaking in the vespa.I have never owned a new vehicle and so don't know what is the process for breaking it in.
Make sure tire pressure is accurate, think you should be fine riding.

Is the check engine light on continuously or only at certain times/speeds?

On my 2018 Vespa GTS 300, it would stay all continuously when it came on, it would then go out after a while & I learned from the forum that it could be a function of the evap crap, I stopped trying to fill up to the brim & I haven't noticed since then.

So far, the light has been on continuously from when I start the Vespa to when I turn it off. The battery is brand new as the original one is sulfated and won't hold a charge.

If the vehicle is running fine, just don't bother it will go off in time. Happened to me as well, Ride the vehicle, not sure what speeds one can go till the 600 mile interval but just go about normal riding in town 30-35mph max and it should turn off eventually. I haven't had it happen after the first couple of times it happened but I also made sure I did not fill up too far to the top.

I decided to connect my homemade PADS system and check the error codes with IAWdiag. The stored codes were:
P0130: to low
P1607: invalid signal
There were no new codes - just those two stored ones.

Decided to check Lambba functions - see picture. Does this indicate a possible issue with the right Lambda sensor? Or is it perfectly normal, at idle, for the right Lambda to be reading "Not Active" while the left Lambda reads "Rich"?

Schuman have you tried swapping the Lambda probe out of your 2015 GTS to see if the O2 probe is the cause of the EML coming on?

No - but that's a great idea! Unfortunately, from what I've read, Piaggio changed the lambda from 2015 to 2018. I believe in 2018 the lambda went to a 4-prong (from a 2-prong in 2015). Also, there are multiple lambdas, correct? One in the exhaust and another in the engine? Which one is the "right" one that appears to be "not active"?

I'm guessing that the IAWdiag app is made for dual exhausts with a lambda sensor in each pipe, and a scooter has only one.

[quote="JKJ-FZ6"] I didn't realize there was but one Lambda/O2 sensor on the GTS 300. I figured perhaps there were two sensors, like on my cars. In any event, clearing the codes in IAWdiag and disconnecting the battery overnight had no impact on the Engine Management Light - the light remains on full-time. I'm going to go for another slowish, stop-and-go "break-in" ride today. I have many of those planned until the 600 mile service (at a dealer). I'll report back if a lower fuel level results in the light turning off. Thanks again everyone.