Modern Vespa

Ok, moving on...

You remember me saying that the mudguard on my GTS is damaged, and while the fuel pump arrives, I thought it would be a good idea to replace the mudguard?
Well, it turns out the bolts have seized on tight to the engine, and I couldn't get them off, so I thought "I'm going to go medieval on this, and get the bolts out"!
So, I bought a set of colbolt screw/bolt extractors and was preparing to get the bloody bolt of..



However, this is the result of 15 mins of drilling... this...



So guys, any tips on drilling through what seems to be hardened steel?
Maybe I need something better than colbolt drills..

Graham

Well, that's buggered it... the engine casting has broke off now.. I'm not sure what to do now...





Graham

Those look like titanium nitride coated (gold color) "high speed steel" drill bits. Genuine cobalt steel bits would cut right through that bolt with out much effort.

If the broken tab is not supporting any critical loads you should be able to stick it back on with some JB-Weld.

... when Greasy sees this, he issues an excommunication ...

When I have to use a bolt extractor I first make a guide hole with a very small diameter (2 or 3 millimeters) but to avoid slipping the bit from the center I use a graver (if the blow does not compromise the piece around).

The drill bits:
Drill bits range from drill bits for iron and metal to bits for wood. Each type has a dedicated abbreviation to recognize it, buy high quality tips!
For holes on stainless steel or titanium a HS / HSS CO DIN 338 twist drill, medium speed of the drill and coolant on the hole, operation to be done in two people and without insisting too much.

If the broken tab is not supporting any critical loads you should be able to stick it back on with some JB-Weld.[/quote]

Its exposed a small hole at the back, and what I can of it, it's the stator plate, and the tab only holds a small part of the plastic mudguard so I think, with a little luck JB weld should work.. I've ordered the JB weld, as I'm still waiting for the original reason as to why I took the scooter apart-the fuel pump!

Graham

I'm dreading to think what Greasy will say about this...
Anyhow, the bloody bolt has seized completely, and now that I can see it more closely, it would seem the aluminium casing has welded itself to the hardened steel bolt, making it impossible to remove. After all, nearly seven years of rain, has taking it's toll on the bolt, which makes me beg the question- if the bolts are only holding a plastic mudguard, then why use hardened steel bolts with an alloy casing? surely, it would be cheaper and easier to use maybe plastic bolts, or something similar seeing as they will be mostly exposed to the rain seeing and it's location is near the rear wheel?

Just like a lot of parts used to build the Vespa, it does make you wonder about the build quality.. sometimes you have to take off the rose coloured spectacles to see the faults - I remember a former member- Bill Dog, tore a strip off Piaggio for the shoddy quality of the paintwork, and I think that's what deterred him from getting another one again, as well as other faults and I can vouch for a number of issues I've had in the past, again with the quality of the components used to build a Vespa, that sometimes really try my patience with Piaggio...

I'm not saying that Vespa's in general are unreliable- sales totals will tell you that, and they do have history on their side and have almost become a fashion accessory, but for christ's sake Piaggio, don't cheapen the name, just to cut a few corners to save a dime or two...

Graham

You underestimate the degree of masochism of those who have a scooter...

Come now, don't blame Piaggio for the fact that you live in England and can't be bothered to use the appropriate antiseize. Fastener corrosion happens, especially in dear ol Blighty, it should be on everyone's radar by now, we are not children we are adults and we know how to counter these issues. Would you be happier if Piaggio sent an agent out to your home to R&R every nut and bolt and apply antiseize for you every season? The way I see it, it's your fault for allowing it to seize in the first place- your scooter is nasty. Clean it up. Also your fault for hamfisting and botching the fastener removal process. You leaned too hard on the cast aluminum ear tab and broke it off. It's as simple as that. Not Piaggio's fault, and it never will be no matter how loudly you complain. I think you're angry with yourself and just prefer to blame others. Stop claiming "bad design"! You are not a design engineer! A hardened steel bolt is just fine and dandy for that application, you are suggesting using a plastic bolt which is a step down in build quality, not up. Furthermore if you think a plastic bolt is the answer then by all means replace it with plastic. Nobody is stopping you. Or would you prefer Piaggio send an agent to your home and do it for you? They could send two and they could make the drive to England from Pontadera in shifts. I can guarantee you however Piaggio will not change the scooter spec just because you got in over your head, screwed up, and broke something.

It gets tiresome listening to people whine and cry and complain about issues The Company has zero culpability for, no involvement with, and cannot actually do anything about. It's your baby so take care of it. Don't break your baby then cry "bad design"! It gets tiresome it really does. You are not fooling anyone.

wow you really went to town with me didn't you?? did that make you feel so much better and superior boy? OK, so a second hand 2014 Vespa I bought in good faith, is now a lemon, wait, hang on, I should have maybe spent 3 hours looking more carefully over the scooter, particularly for seized bolts, knackered fuel pumps, faulty ECU's coils, Lamda sensors and the like, so that's where I went wrong!!!!! and who are you to call my scooter" nasty" at least I have a GTS, I'm not a LX 50- did I say 50 - a moped fanboi

It wasn't my problem if I've followed the advice from other MV members, that's why I wrote the original post, and I've had more Vespa GTS scooters to know how fickle they can be..

Oh, and I'm sorry if an established member of this community (over 1000 posts) asked some of the best ways to remove a bolt and I went of piste and remarked that Piaggio are in danger of cheapening the name, because in my experience I've come across this but many many other faults.. oh LX 50 rider, i'm so sorry, please forgive me, for blackening the name Paiggio

p.s, I don't give a flying fuck.. and I don't call scooters "baby"

Graham

It is more likely that someone used thread locking liquid on the offending bolt ... perhaps in factory?
So we blame the workers ...
Come on ... let's not get killed, and yes ... I also gave up Piaggio for what I call "an unfortunate series" of models.
Worse because despite living in the country of production I was snubbed by consumer care .. OK, i passed over.
But .... nothing (or almost nothing) happened to others ... bad luck.
Vespa continues to sell, at least until someone comes to contend with it for the title of the most beautiful scooter.

Or perhaps you ran the drill bits clockwise like a normal drill instead of the other way round. Would explain why you thought they were ineffective.

Well I see you took that well. Allow me to correct myself - some of us are adults. Love the profanity, it's just so necessary. Posting over 1000 times to this forum still does not qualify you as a design engineer. Perhaps a mouthy harpy, but not a design engineer.

It's both sad and funny that you belittle my 50. It's a perfectly legitimate way to get around, and I don't have issues with corroded fasteners because I know how to deal with them in an adult manner. My 50 is way better than your nasty GTS as I've got no broken casing tabs.

Blaming Piaggio for corroded fasteners is like blaming God himself for inventing rust. Not going to get you anywhere is it!

...scccc..!



The trouble has now been done. Please don't put it on the religious side ... it's already complicated enough that way.

Wow you seem a little angry, no need for that kind of response, I too live in England, have owned many 2nd hand scooters and have come across dodgy maintenance from previous owners. Remind me not to ask you for advice especially if it's your time of the month.

That's fair enough but I must disagree that there was no need for my response. I believe there was. These days too many are too quick to blame a manufacturer for issues that clearly the manufacturer can do nothing about (like a previous owner's lack of maintenance), but lack the stones and the talent to handle like an adult. No accountability anywhere. It's Piaggio's fault OP broke the cast tab boss off drilling the wrong direction. Isn't it? It's Piaggio's fault! Poor design! Bad Piaggio! They should be making their scooters out of cheese so corroded fasteners can't happen! OP is just an innocent bystander, bilked by Piaggio and the previous owner. Those woefully evil previous owners colluding with the diabolical Piaggio! They do it on purpose you know! Let's just pretend there's no such thing as 1) antiseize paste 2) penetrating oil and 3) setting the drill motor to the correct rotational direction when drilling out broken seized fasteners with a "cobolt" extractor.

You are certainly free to not ask me anything, I'll find a way to come to terms with it. After I cry myself to sleep of course. Just don't go whining and blaming willy nilly as swift justice is around the corner.

Keep in mind that when dissimilar metals are in contact for any period of time corrosion can be extreme.

When I worked at Grumman we machined a lot of aluminum. Even on the occasion when we put down anti corrosion spray the blast of coolant would move the ac spray away and upon lifting up the part we found corrosion underneath. A quick run with a nylon wheel would clean it up but it happened. It varied with different grades and I would imagine with the Italian penchant for unobtainium a steel bolt in their aluminum wouldn't stand a chance. Especially in the birthplace of precipitation like the United Kingdom.

Agreed, except anticorrosion technology has advanced quite a bit. Modern plating and anticorrosion treatments & spray products have made the whole thing manageable whereas in the old days it was almost a Sisyphean task. Common sense may be on the decline however.