Modern Vespa

Hi All,

I'd like to introduce myself and my project. Several years ago I acquired 1958 Vespa VB1T from the original owner. He had bought it new in San Francisco and used it to commute to work from his house in Oakland. He rode it up until 1964 at which at that time parked it in his garage for good! It is completely rust free and original but weathered. It still has the vintage black and yellow plate which I would like to see if I can resurrect with DMV when it comes time to register it.

My plan is to completely restore it to original aesthetics, paint color, rubber bits seat etc... but with some modern upgrades for better ride ablity and reliability. I want to upgrade the motor for more streetable power along with the suspension and brakes. Basically want it to be fun around town cool vintage scooter. So I am looking for all good advice on what works, where to get parts and any other insight/guidance I might need. So here is my plan and correct me if needed.

1. Engine - New topend cylinder kit, 12v conversion, Carburetor Kit and matching pipe. What cylinder kits are available for the old 50's 2 port engines? Pipe, I like the ones that Ive seen that resemble a cone style chamber but dumps into a box style muffler similar to stock looking.

2. Suspension - Modern Shocks!!! What works for these old wide bodies.

3. Brakes - What are good shoes and any other setup tricks that might help them preform at their best.

4. Chassis - I want it to look stock so where can I source OEM style rubber bits, cables and such? I will need either a new gauge or mine refurbished as it is missing the lens and the face plate is bleached out yellow now. Also a the paint code for the original silver blue color. I found the MaxMeyer 15028 code but would like a PPG or something else that I can get mixed up from my local auto body paint store.

And my back ground. Born and raised in Northern California's East Bay Area, residing here most all of my 55 years. I am an avid rider of both dirt and street bikes. Proficient at motorcycle restorations, doing most all of my own work from engine builds to paint. Mostly vintage MX bikes which I am more fond of the European makes but do have serval Japanese bikes as well. I started collecting and restoring them thirty plus years ago and haven't stopped.

The first vintage bike I restored was a 1974 Bultaco MkVII which I bought in high school, rode the crap out of it! Threw it in my parents shed and forgot about it for twenty years.

My poor wife, good thing she is pretty understanding of my love for all things two wheeled and four as I competed for a time in AHRMA until life, kids and the drama/politics of AHRMA got in the way. To many nights in the garage working on bikes and gone all weekend.

But now onto this, I am new to Vespa's and scooters and this is my first scooter build so bare with me for ignorance. Any and all help and advice is welcome.

Here is the the engine and vin #'s for my project

For the speedo, Speedo King. He does restorations of Vespa speedos, and has all the parts.

http://speedoking.com/

For parts, check the list here. Scooter Mercato and Scooterwest have lots of parts. SIP and Scooter Center have more, but are in Europe.

I usually buy from Scooterwest, bc they're in California.

For brakes, Pinasco makes a 'performance' brake drum for those bikes. It might be some improvement.

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/front-brake-hub-8-pinasco-highbrake-vespa-wideframe-v1-15-v30-33-vu-vm-vn-vl-vb-acma-hoffmann-largeframe-vba-vbb-vna-vnb-pn26280200

You can buy upgraded suspension components. The spring/dampener are the same as Vespas up to the late 70s, so there are some options.

Don't know about making it much faster. They're such classic bikes, that you don't see a lot of performance upgrades on them.

1. Any engine swaps you foresee in your future? Are you going to rebuild the bottom end? I bet you could get your current motor running with your skills using little money. Points work pretty well once cleaned, a new condenser is $5. Get new rings ($20) and light hone of cylinder. a Carb kit is like $20. 12V won't buy you much on it's own, I have 12VAC regulated and won't ride at night unless the streets are well lit on their own. If you stick with 6VAC, buy some bulbs from the suppliers already mentioned as you can't get them at your normal parts store.

2. Suspension: Modern shocks help, but the scoots will never be rock stars. I would highly suggest replacing the bearings and races. Someone just asked this question for a scoot like yours this past week or so if you want to check it out for more details.

3. New pads like newfren brand are good, sand your drums, and replace the cables. This will get your machine stopping well.

4. Buy an entire rubber kit for your bike, it is pretty cheap. I would also suggest an entire hardware kit (includes like every bolt/washer/etc) and comes in super handy as you start finding more problems.

Are you going to stick with the 8" tires? I suggest you figure this out before you get too deep.

Learn what other Vespa's will have parts that work for your bike (ie the VBA has a very similar front end). There are a couple cruisaire/VB1/VBA/VBB threads that are active right now on this forum. You can read them to learn what people have done for upgrades.

PS post more pics! We want to see the whole bike.

Rather than restore, is it worth giving it a good clean and seeing how it looks. Its only original once.

Welcome to the forum VMX! You'd be amazed how well the old paint cleans up on these machines.

My advice would be get it running (clean the carb, tank, fuel tap, new fuel line), then start working each area when time permits (new tires), headset, Pinasco 177c 2-port cylinder kit, exhaust, rubber bits, cables, etc.

This way you have a scooter that rolls and you can slowly learn about how it all functions. I've seen too many times time get in the way of peoples grand plans and everything ends up in boxes, when one area at a time would've kept the scooter together and rolling for the most part.

Read through some threads here on the forum - you'll see lots of people doing what you're looking at doing. Not necessarily with a 58, but close. And everyone documents differently.

Do us a favor and post a picture of the whole scooter!

Check out Gickspeed's posts - he's got some nice older mechanicals restored, and you'll see the good stuff going into the engines and suspension.

Again, welcome to the forum!

Apologies! Welcome to the forum too!!

Congratulations on your new addition! '58 VB1t's are cool Vespas. Last of the 8" widebody. Very cool Vespas, and different in many ways than the later large-frame models.

The engine format is totally different to the later models too. Slow 3 speed. piston ported 150. Did I say slow?.... I meant, really slow; by todays standards. Its good you are considering upgrades, if you're considering riding this at all on open roads.

Thankfully there are now performance components available from different suppliers. Pinasco, Nagy-Blechroller, Bollag motos, to name a few. You'll most likely end up changing: crank, cylinder kit, carb kit, clutch, exhaust pipe, maybe gearing... it adds up fast! It is nice that we have the options to soup-up those old motors. Who needs money anyway?

Another option is to swap the motor for a more recent large-frame motor. P200, or similar. This is a popular option, because you can get the old style body; running on a new style motor with all the product support that comes with it. You have to use an adapter bracket, because the motor mounts are different. This is an option if you really want to push the performance, or are on a tighter budget. I'd guestimate you'll spend atleast 50% more souping up on a widebody motor, than a large frame motor. That being said, its a very different thing.

Jonathan Gick / Gickspeed, or Joe Casola / Saints Cycle Works; are both good resources for widebody engine work; if you wont be doing it yourself. John Gick has done lots for work for others on this forum; and helped me source parts for my own '58 VB1T. Joe Casola helped me get a title for my smallframe Vespa. Both very reputable.

Lets see some photos! I'm including a few shots of my '58 VB1T. It's a work in progress

Why paint?

Thank you guys for all of your responses and suggestions. I think that its a good idea and might reconsider the engine at this time, as suggested maybe just freshening it up and get it running.

As far as the chassis though I do want to take it completely apart because it needs everything. Needs a good clean to start then asses parts that need to be refurbish or replaced. It'll need all new cables, rubbers, brakes, and who knows what other stuff until you take it completely apart you want know.

This is much simpler than most all the other bikes Ive built so should go pretty fast. Just need to educate myself on the idiosyncrasies of a vintage Vespa. So with the help of this forum I hope to learn them.

As asked here are some pictures of the Scooter. There are a couple of items that are taken off but I have like the rest rack. I'd like to add a passenger seat and spare tire mount.

Here's some pictures from my collection of other bikes I have restored.

Good luck with your project! I found an original VBB1T from 1961 that is very similar. I didn't do anything to the body and just focused on mechanical soundness. It made me very happy and when you look at my scooter you can tell it is 60 years old... Don't walk away from the opportunity to do that with yours. Patina is priceless.

So I've spoken with Kristian at BarItalia, great guy, and he has talked me into a BMG crank, cylinder kit along with a carb and pipe.

I have decided that I am going to paint it but probably not to the quality as other bikes I have done. So it'll be single stage metallic OEM matched paint.

Kristian's a good guy, knows his stuff. My 2 pesos ... If you're going to paint it, please don't cut any corners. It's a beautiful original example and deserves at least the same quality and care you put into your other bikes. I think once you start disassembling and cleaning it you'll begin to better appreciate the elegance and beauty of these old machines.

Good luck, looking forward to seeing your progress.

Seems like all it really needs is a good wash, buff, n polish. She'll be looking great real quick! And my 1/2ofOnecent : its worth more in original rough paint, than it is restored. Especially once you consider the cost of paint and bodywork. SoCal is right, you should not cut corners. The widebody Vespas, and all the earlier models are getting harder to find, even more so in solid even somewhat decent original paint. More and more they are smashed or rotted. Your's looks solid and nice for 60 years old! Just my thoughst as well; as I also have an '58 VB1T in original paint. However you go, I'll be watching

Makes me wanna cry that you want to paint it!

That single stage paint will clean up nice.
And the imperfections over 60 years will make it even more appealing to everyone that looks at it.

Why don't you spend the effort making it mechanically solid, then in a year or so re-evaluate? Best of both worlds.

My opinion obviously. In most cases I'd say do what you want, but like GL said, these machines in such clean condition as yours are only original once...

Great plan, Best of both worlds

Paint it if you want, make the scoot the way you want it. Even though your bike looks pretty good, get ready for some metal work to get all the curves. Check out Haole Copper Star is a good example of what a clean body looks like.

I agree with the others that say get it mechanically where you want, then paint. This may lead to less heartache when you have to start modifying the bike to get your new parts to fit.

The front fender and side panels look like they may have come off a different scoot. Prior to paint, you may want to make sure you have the correct ones for the year your scoot is if you are going for all period correct body. I am not super familiar with the VB1 platform, but isn't it only a 2 port motor? If you are aiming to really stick some power in there, I would suggest getting a different platform (ie P series). I also think a VB1 is a 3 speed vs later scoots have 4 speed. I am not familiar with the used values of the VB1 motor, but I saw scooterwest has NOS cases for like $800. You may be able to sell your VB1 motor and put that towards a P motor.

You have 60 years old beauty, Just make it mechanically fit and then Wash/Buff/Polish it or repaint it if you really want.

I am not super familiar with the VB1 platform, but isn't it only a 2 port motor? If you are aiming to really stick some power in there, I would suggest getting a different platform (ie P series). I also think a VB1 is a 3 speed vs later scoots have 4 speed. I am not familiar with the used values of the VB1 motor, but I saw scooterwest has NOS cases for like $800. You may be able to sell your VB1 motor and put that towards a P motor.[/quote]

So I found Bollag Motos and Ralph Bollag developed a top end cylinder kit for the early two port three stud motors that more than doubles the stock power and is reported to be extremely torquey. Kristian sold the kits and said that though it's only a three speed it's really not needed or worth the effort to convert to four speed because of the nature of how the Bollag kit runs.

Now the bad part is Bollag doesn't make the kits anymore and Kristian has sold all the ones he had. But Kristian saved the day and told me that BMG started making kits and are almost a direct copy of Ralph's. And the are less expensive too. Kristian also told me that he has the jetting setup for either the Polini or Delorto carbs to match.

https://www.bgm-tuning.com/en/product/bgm1550kt-tuning-kit-including-cylinder-and-crankshaft-bgm-pro-150-ccm-wideframe-faro-basso-57mm-stroke57mm-vespa-1953-1959-vm-vn-acma-vb1t-cf1t-vl1t/

http://www.baritaliaclassics.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=201&products_id=1320

So I found Bollag Motos and Ralph Bollag developed a top end cylinder kit for the early two port three stud motors that more than doubles the stock power and is reported to be extremely torquey. Kristian sold the kits and said that though it's only a three speed it's really not needed or worth the effort to convert to four speed because of the nature of how the Bollag kit runs.

Now the bad part is Bollag doesn't make the kits anymore and Kristian has sold all the ones he had. But Kristian saved the day and told me that BMG started making kits and are almost a direct copy of Ralph's. And the are less expensive too. Kristian also told me that he has the jetting setup for either the Polini or Delorto carbs to match.

https://www.bgm-tuning.com/en/product/bgm1550kt-tuning-kit-including-cylinder-and-crankshaft-bgm-pro-150-ccm-wideframe-faro-basso-57mm-stroke57mm-vespa-1953-1959-vm-vn-acma-vb1t-cf1t-vl1t/

http://www.baritaliaclassics.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=201&products_id=1320[/quote]

This "kit" is nothing more than old APE cylinders from India. Some come with the APE heads, others come with a newer, reprofiled head. No offense but this incredibly old technology. It would have been something before Pinasco and CC Corsa cylinders came out, but not so much now.

Polini CP 23 carb and Stoffi roller bearing crank doesn't sound like old technology to me

I never said anything about those parts.

Gotcha. Thought you were referring to the kit as a whole.

A friend of mine who does the widebody R&D for Pinasco sent me the link from the manufacture whom is in India. Something like $20.00 for the cylinder, piston, and head. Something insane like that. The cylinder themselves are three ports, so you do have to run a spacer to block the one on top.

But yes, those cylinders have been mostly unchanged for decades.

Let me ask for some personal advice. I don't want to spend a ton of money on the engine if I really don't need to or can get away with less. Reason being I have to spend a bunch of money on the rest of the scooter and I'm trying to keep the cost of the whole project within reason. I don't want this to be a spare no expense project like some of my other restorations have been. I'd like this to be a nice scooter but not a money pit. It'll be ridden mostly around town and not long distance. That will be reserved for my other bikes. And I probably will give it to my 21 year old daughter to enjoy bombing around Ventura and Oxnard where she lives.

So would either the BMG kit or similar SIP with a pipe and carb be a big improvement say over just a stock rebuild?

I get that the Piansco has more modern engineering designed into it but looks to be more than double the cost. And that is what I'm trying to avoid. At the end of the day I'm just looking for a fun scooter not a hot rod. Lol

Now that you know the direction I'm wanting to go, what's your thoughts on a nice budget built engine.

3 options I see:
1) Refresh the current motor: Throw some new seals/gaskets in, replace bearings as needed. Put new piston rings in, light hone with your drill. Decoke exhaust, rebuild carb, new condensor, sand points. $200 in parts.

2) Stay on VB1 platform, spend almost same money above plus add the $1300 for the Bar Italia kit (crank, piston, head, cylinder, exhaust, carb, up-gear primary). You are still stuck with your current ignition.

3) Dump the VB1 platform. Find a lump (non-running engine) for sub $300 (either VBB or P series). You can get the parts for a VBB/P 150 motor cheaper and arguably better quality for a lot less. Below I broke down a list
$250 Malossi 177 Cast Iron cyl/head/piston
$200 Mazzy Crank w/ sporty intake duration
$150 SIP Road 2 Exhaust
$85 Carb (20/20 or 24/24)
$60 Up gear for cush drive

This is $745 total for known sporty parts on a VBB/P 150 motor vs $1,300 to stay on VB1. Then add lump, puts you at $1,045.

A total overhaul for a VBB is only $500 (no carb, no exhaust, no upgear).

All this said, this is not a complete engine breakdown list. Need an all new igition? Cough up $300 (flywheel, stator, coil, etc). Also a bunch of little stuff starts to add up.

So if you go with option 3 you will also need the mounting bracket to fit Large frame lump into wide frame.

as for Bollag kits I have just ordered directly from him in Switzerland a kit for my VN2 it has not yet arrived so cant give any information on the quality or ease of build.

the engine was already a little fresh so this is going to be a total Plug and play kit for me...

send photos of the bike, I think (personally) I love the look of a rat wide frame so rather spend more and make the bike totally mechanically restored than pretty to the eye

just my 2c worth
FYI I am based in South Africa thats why i went directly to Bollag as there are no local agents for he stuff