Modern Vespa

Is there a shelf life on oil? Has anyone come across this before? thanks

Sorta.

But for the vast majority of us, an unopened bottle of the correct oil from the year our scooter was made would be just fine.

Open bottle? I'd give it a year. Thing is, at that one year point I put it in a scooter, and it's in there for another year probably.

5 years - on unopened name brands - do not know about generic brands. Dependent on conditions in which the oil is kept (need to follow manufacturer's storage recommendations). Google can help with particular ambient conditions to keep motor oil.

I have never heard about this before and I worked for GM for 42 years. thanks

If you worked for GM for 42 years and never heard about this before - why are you asking the question?

Here's a link directly from Mobil and shelf life. Go ahead and look-up other major brand names at your leisure. All have the same disclosures for "shelf life" as you ask.

I was a body man and it never came up . I will check out the websites. I had bought some Mobil One for the cars a few years ago and and was going to order a few quarts for the scooters Thanks

Local MC/scooter parts shop owner told me that oil just doesn't go bad. Just sayin'. I have no special knowledge about degradation of oil due to aging. Gas, yeah, but not oil

Miguel

Me to l never heard anyone say anything about shelf life Thanks

Greetings:

I get that Mobil recommends a 5-year shelf life. But they don't say Why.

A. Just because someone worked at a company that is somewhat related to motor oil doesn't mean shit. Just sayin'
B. I wouldn't believe that oil shelf life means much coming from the manufacturer. A trusted independent lab? Maybe
C. Oil is inexpensive so why risk it?
D. Oils made today are superior to what was available 5+ years ago so why wonder? Just get the best oil available for your vehicle since it is the lifeblood of any motor vehicle.
E. Just my $.02

All oil manufacturers place either a 4 or 5 year shelf life on their products IF the can or bottle is unopened and it's stored in an ambient temperature. Some very specialised oils have a much shorter life span on the shelf. Exactly how long the 'sealed' shelf life of a particular can of oil is will depend on what oil it is and what it's chemicall make up is.

Once the oil can or bottle is opened it will survive intact for only up to two years after which the oil is on no value as it will not meet the original specifications on the tin and will fail to lubricate properly.

WHY IS THIS? All oil whether synthetic or dino breaks down with age. In particular the additives start to degenerate, with some of them turning to water. Some can become slightly acidic while others, if not turning to water, start to alter their chemical make up. In short the oil become quite different to when it left the factory. Do not use it except for lubricating door hinges or chains maybe!

NOTE: the date the oil was manufactured is always stamped on the tin or bottle, sometimes in a code or displayed as normal. You can always find out what the date is by emailing the oil company if it's a code you don't understand.

...and what the heck, even edible oil has a shelf life except in the EU instead of the wording: "consume by (date)" there is the wording: "consume" preferably "by (date)" has been replaced.
I distinguish subtle but which hides a genericity to the detriment of the customer ...
Who knows if they will do the same thing for lube oil? Tell me what today does not have a deadline.

Even my doctor told me I was going to die! This was news to me as no one told me, ever! But he did add it would not be for another 20-30 years...with luck!! I just wish we had our "live by date" stamped on our bottoms so we could plan ahead better!

Oh and the lesson is, don't bulk buy lots of oil at bargain prices if you cannot use it within the specified time period. It's just a waste and often when you get lots of oil going cheap, it's because it's at the end of it's shelf life. Not always but quite often.

Thanks for the information

I was wondering just this when I changed the oil on my car a few weeks back. Grabbed a case of Mobil 1 that was in my garage and starting pouring it in. On the fourth quart I noticed it was a surprising reddish color, kind of like an amber or red beer.

Thinking it odd, I looked at the box again. It had an under cap promotion that expired in October 2008.

Oops.

I thought about "oil doesn't expire if it's closed, right?" and then decided nope, got to buy new filter and oil and do it all over again.

When I googled "does oil expire" most of the info had to do with the additives breaking down rather than the oil itself. However when a five quart jug of synthetic is $12 at costco and a delco filter $4 at walmart I would rather eat the $16 and do it again.

If would be a bit more painful with that fancy motorcycle oil that costs $15 a quart or so but its not like a GTS or ET takes much oil.

Thanks again

My cousin who lives in the States bought a very cheap case of 4X 1 gallon jugs of Rotella T. When he got it home it was all out of date by over two years. In other words it was over 7 years old. It was as much use as a wet paper bag! But he saved money!! When he took it back no one at the store even knew oil had a shelf life. They bought it in cheap without knowing.

It would be even more painful if you had to throw the engine away for a small savings margin.

I find it strange that oil for vehicles lasts only a few years in a unopened bottle, while oil for Rolex watches lasts 14 years in the watch. That is their recommended time between services now that they have switched to synthetic oil.

How long have you had the oil in your car or truck differential (if you still have one), or how old is your automatic transmission fluid? Both of these devices have vents to the open air. A unopened bottle does not.

Cheers,
Bob

As a farmer I use agricultural vehicles (two diesel tractors) and a forklift for loading (diesel); the first two vehicles are used often while the forklift only once for two weeks each year.
Well, I do complete maintenance by emptying the engine oil at least once a year otherwise greasy sludge is formed which can clog the lubrication passages.
Gearbox oil is added without being replaced except when doing a (five-year) gear overhaul.
Hydraluic oil is replaced less frequently but is not the subject of this topic.
In my car the engine oil (including the filter) is changed at least once every year (or at the kilometers indicated by the manufacturer) and in the same way for my scooter.
The gearbox oil of my car was completely changed when the level gauge was at idle (70,000km and at five years).
In my scooter the transmission box also has a gauge but the manufacturer also provides a gap distance.
I never buy motor oil and transmission oil for cars and scooters because they do not eat oil unnecessarily and this is because I do maintenance when indicated and not when I judge it.
Agricultural vehicles no, one of them is very old and needs constant topping up and also the forklift (which also has an irreparable hydraulic fluid leak) ... but from this year I stopped it.
What I mean is that if the vehicle consumes excessively oil due to old age or poor maintenance and the oil is not changed at maintenance intervals, you can also stock up on oil but you will have to ask yourself not if you should buy a lot of oil but rather to do a more careful maintenance.

Back some years, when my dad was alive and farming, he had a 20(?) gallon barrel with a pump on it. We had four tractors, a haybine, car, lawn mower, and garden tiller that I'm almost certain used the same oil. Kind of wondering how long it actually lasted.

After his death, the barrel sat there, and whenever I'd change the oil in the lawn mower, etc, I'd pump some out of there. I think the stuff was a good decade old,

Not sure what he knew about oil, but I doubt he'd want to throw out "good" oil. As for me, well, I certainly didn't know better.....

Thanks for all the information. I think that I will cut down on my oil inventory

Yeah Bob, Your watch oil doesn't have to meet the stringent standards of a motor car or bike engine oil. So in the jug, the oil itself doesn't really change hardly at all, but the additives in the oil in a sealed can or jug start to break down. Many of the additives are man made and start to revert to their original state. Some other additives actually turn to water. So even in a sealed can the chemicals the additives are made from start to degrade by chemical action/s. This action happens even faster in an opened container or when they are in your engine. In the engine they are exposed to extremes of pressure, shear forces, heat and cold, water, unburned fuel, carbon deposits and acids.

If it's a fully synthetic ester based oil the additives that make the oil cling and repair any puncture to the oil film inside the engine whilst running is formed of molecules that actually have an imbalance between the electrons and protons. This makes them kinda magnetic when moved around the engine and this causes them to cling to the fast moving metal parts of your engine. These electrons and protons seem to degrade over time in a jug so the oil isn't meeting it's specification on the jug.

Modern oils are packed with additives to make your engine last and cope with the extremes of riding and driving on todays roads. Even oils from 25 years ago didn't have the chemicals in them that we have today. Therefore, oils from yesteryear did tend to degrade slightly less fast. But then, those oils didn't work or protect you motor anywhere near as good as todays oils either.

Nonetheless, Bob has a good point!

We barely do change diffs oils and normally just top them up. Hypoid oils just seems to go on for ever. Even after a million km is still doing his job. I opened several 20-25 years old diff in my life, and while the oil was definitely darker and with plenty of metal shaving and particle in it, it still did smell like when you open a fresh new 60 litre drum.. And this is your first clue. We buy 205 litre drums weekly for engines oil and only 60 litre drums monthly for Hypoid oils.. You can guess why...

I'm not saying that oils don't deteriorate over time on the shelf, and there are so many kinds of oils, that you can't really put them all in one basket as far as deterioration, but I think there is always a bit of hype around mechanical consumable on Internet. Same as with belts, spark plugs and filters... We tend to change them as required, not when the company selling them to you suggested you should.. Most customer once they see the results, tend to become much less anal about consumable..

I'm sure you also are aware that most oils do get continually recycle, cleaned and used again and again in the industry..

This attitude has so far working well for all parties involved.. The customer, the workshop and the planet!

Ok Burt, yes many oils do get recycled time and time again, but this is not the norm for most oils which tend to use brand new oil. The cheaper brands of oil often use more of the recycled oil and are sometimes mixed with brand new oil. But that old oil has only deteriorates very slightly anyway, but the additives in it fail very quickly so that old oil gets filtered to remove the crap and then revitalised with new additives and then resold. It's good oil.

So firstly the diff oil is something a bit different to engine oil. It doesn't actually have the same sort of make up as engine oil in terms of it's additives. All it has to do is lubricate using extreme pressure agents to protect the gears and bearings. I say all, but it's still a major task of course. Many of the additives used to make the extreme pressure agents are generally more stable than those in engine oils due to their nature and the fact they are separated from the engine. But not all of the additives it uses are. So it still has a finite shelf life, and it still has to be changed out from the diff on a regular basis in accordance with the manufacturers recommendations. Once in the diff the oil is not exposed to acids, unburned fuel, carbon, water etc etc like engine oil. This instantly gives the diff oil a major advantage and allows it to function for longer than engine oil. It also runs a bit cooler too than engine oil. However, that diff oil still has a finite life cycle. The extreme pressure agents are sacrificial. The diff oil lays down a layer of protective extreme pressure agent to the gears and bearings so that no metal to metal contact takes place. Regular changes are necessary to make sure the extreme pressure agents are not depleted.

However, i have never heard of anyone nailing the Rolex mechanism for lack of oil and then walking home for this reason.
Sorry but the image that formed in my mind was too funny.

I kept looking at my watch the other day. Sometimes several times in an hour? Am I wearing out my watch too fast by doing that? Is the oil in my watch up to the job? It's a bit like looking through your spectacles too much...it's well know that doing that wears them out too quickly!

You are not really telling me anything new. I was just pointing out to you that Bob had a good point about the fact that in the industry, we don't change oils in gearboxes, transfer case wheel hub diffs and auto transmission as per recommendation but mostly as per requirement based on the use and performance of whatever the piece of machinery is or does. Therefore, the age of the oil or the date on the tin is not really an issue

Also, nearly 90% of the time the oil in diffs only protects the gears not the bearings.. They always fail first regardless of the quality or age of the oil. Most of the metal shaving we find inside normally comes from the bearing cage not the gears.. Some company have tried with mixed result to use in diffs and gearboxes sealed bearings so not to rely on the oil splashing on it... Come to think, the BMW uses the same technique in some of their models like the GS..

While I get your point, and without disrespect, I think you should also try to understand that not everybody has been taking the blue pill...

Huge difference between Best Before and Use By...

Happy riding...

Burt, would you put engine oil in your motor that was already 7 years old from a sealed container just bought from a store? If you did the oil would have degraded considerably and would have lost much of it's cling factor, oil film strength and ability to neutralise acids. It would also contain an amount of water derived from some of the chemical action that has taken place as the additive break down. That's what we are talking about here and why the oil scientists tell us not to use it. We all know about Best Before and Use By dates and officially there is only an expiry date for oils after which it should not be used for normal use. If used it will degrade incredibly quickly to the point where engine wear is very rapid. And yes I have tested that during my time as a tech and engine design and development engineer. There are two main enemies of oil; age and mileage. Oil is constantly breaking down whatever type of oil it is whether in the bottle or in the engine.

The only enemy of oil is heat.. You are confusing engines with people...

It's all good mate..

Yes heat is an enemy as is almost everything else in the engine, but none of that matters if the oil is expired before you use it. Sorry if I sound pedantic on this, but folks misunderstand so many things about oil even professional mechanics (present company excepted).

I agree all is good!

The other enemies are oxygen, acids, mechanical shear, and moisture. Much of the additive package is designed to minimize degradation of the oil molecules, as well as stabilize the above contaminants so they do not corrode engine parts. Part of the problem with modern engine oils is the need to avoid 'poisoning' catalytic converters. So lower quantities of zinc and/or phosphorus are permitted. This degrades film strength, increasing the chances of abnormal cam/valvetrain wear.

Hot-rodders with non-smogged engines use racing oils with much higher levels of these and other additives.

Obviously, these limitiations don't apply to gearbox/diff oil, so those have the full mineral package. Perhaps why these don't degrade much, and rarely need to be changed. Also, nearly all of these devices use rolling-element bearings, usually running at much lower load pressures rather than pressurized shell bearings, as nearly all engines do, so the demands on the oil are less.

In the days of 2-strokes, rod and main bearings were rolling element, and could survive on a thin mist of oil. Shell bearings need oil under pressure, although the load-bearing results from hydrodynamic rather than static pressure. Old machines were designed for crappy oil, so bearings were oversized, revs and loads were low. Moderb engines require oil of specific high quality.

My personal opinion is that oil is cheap, engines are expensive, use the best freshest oil you can get. When in doubt, use it in your lawnmower and get new for your scooter.

... and change the oil at the required maintenance intervals.

I omitted to add one major engine oil problem, ring blowby, adding some of the products of combustion to the engine oil. Almost certainly the source of the many things you see suspended in 'dirty oil' when changing it.

Yes, with modern, high-quality engine oil, permissible to observe recommended drain intervals, usually much longer than previously recommended, although many manufacturers hedge that for engines operated in 'unusual conditions', like short trips, or dusty conditions.

Since I recycle all my used oil, I don't feel too bad 'improving' on the schedule somewhat. Especially since one car oil change generates 5 times the used oil of one scooter change.

What is the blowby ring ..? Are you referring to piston sealing rings?
Excuse me but technical Italian and technical English are different as terms of objects.

We refer to "blow-by" as the portion of high pressure combustion gas from the power stroke escaping past the piston rings and entering the crankcase. The gas "blows by" the piston rings.

Bill

Ah...OK.

We can discuss this endlessly, but there must be a study or research on the shelf life of various types of oil. The date on the container is a notation of when the maker will no longer warrant that the product is capable of what they claim it is for. After that date, you are on your own. It does not mean the oil is no good, it means they aren't responsible if it is.

That's also true with food items.

And while we're on this topic......I poured a previously unopened plastic bottle of Mobil 1 recently into my old BMW Z3 and happened to look in the empty bottle after I had poured the oil.

In the bottom of the bottle was a suspicious looking particulate gummy residue of some sort. I called Mobil as to what they thought it might be and got pretty much a clueless answer.

The oil was probably 2-3 years since purchase when as best I recall.

Do the "experts" here think some of the additives may have settled to the bottom? Or?

I've gotten where I always look into the bottom of the bottle now and usually see something that has settled out, but the one time above was much greater.

Yes it is a formation of additives that are breaking down and settling to the bottom of the container. Some types of oil do this more than others. The oil is breaking down all the time in the bottle and there are always some particulates present in all oil unless it's fully synthetic made from esters. Your oil could indeed be much older than you think even though you may only have had that bottle for 3 years. It's probably 5-7 years old or more. The date code on the bottle would be an indicator.

I had some oil that was Shell semi-synthetic mc oil. I used it as specified in my Burgman 400. The Burgmans are light on their oil and they use roller and needle roller bearings throughout the main engine components. Shell semi synthetic oil has a shelf life of just 4 years. It was at the end of its fourth year in the bottle and had remained unopened and unmoved in all that time in my garage. Being me, I opened it up and looked into the bottom of the bottle. It was loaded with broken down sediment (expired additives and other particulates) at the bottom of the bottle. I was about to put it in my pressure oil can for use other than in an engine. I did so! That was the correct decision too.