Modern Vespa

With a surprise conclusion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GAUo8eUXeU

I always enjoy watching Fort Nine's videos. He does a lot of preparation to make them engaging and informative.

I have heard the rumors of Italian engineering but was surprised to find Aprilia and Ducati where they were. Makes me wonder where my Vespa engine would have fallen on that chart. At over 42K miles and 15 years of service I've gotten my money's worth so it probably a non-issue. For me at least.

A friend recently suggested I buy a Royal Enfield. Seeing their results has me thinking though a recent ride on the BMW K75 has me really loving that motorcycle so my wandering eye departed.

Thanks for sharing the video.

Greetings :

I suppose this underscores the importance of that first oil change. I will do mine at 100 miles on my next new purchase. Maybe not even wait that long?

I wonder how much of that result is due to especially tight/clean manufacturing, vs.:
* doing a pre-delivery oil change on the engine at the manufacturer, or at the dealer, after a few minutes of test running
* different/better oil filters

the problem with choosing purchase for style (Vespa) is that you can't shop around for quality build

You also don't know if, for instance, the Aprilia guy rode his harder than the Enfield.

It's interesting to see the analysis, but hard to draw a conclusion from a sample size of one.

Harder than a Kawasaki, Honda, Triumph......?

This post was not quite
What we were hoping to see
Try again, perhaps?

Fort Nine's videos are always very entertaining but like anything else on Internet...

Anonymous lab tech??? Is a bit too easy...

Perhaps having more tangible data on the video would have helped make it believable...

Still, a very enjoyable show...

.... uhm ... Too many variables on the subject, it is complex to give a definitive judgment.

Yes an interesting but totally useless video from many different angles. As Atilla says, "too many variables".

To be any sort of real value we need to know lots about those variables ie: what oils are we talking about. Each manufacturer can use a different type of oil. For example most Triumph bikes here in the UK use a mineral oil for the first 600 miles to help with the running in process and they have a strict running in process that you must stick too regarding the amount of loading and engine revs you can use. This will result in a lot more motor debris in the first oil change. This is completely normal and does no harm whatsoever.

Secondly, we need to know what sort of motors and what sort of finishing process has been applied to the cylinders and pistons. The metals used ie: straight carbon steel, the alloys, Nikasil etc. There are differing grades of cylinder finishing depth (honing the cross hatching to the cylinder). A deeper grade of honing will result in a lot of debris in the first oil change but gives you a better longer engine life and better performance with low oil consumption. So although you may have a lot of debris in the oil, that's what is meant to happen and it's completely harmless and is filtered out of the oil circulation gallery by the oil filter and a necessary part of the running in process.

How were the bikes "run-in"? We know this can be the biggest variable as folks all have differing ideas about how to do this. In the research I did we had all our engines run-in by computer controlled machines to eliminate the variables of doing this very important task. In this video this was not the case and I would completely expect there to be very big variances in the oil debris because of this big factor.

The sort of engine materials being used in the construction of the engine are very important. Lead is now almost completely universally not used in bearings or any part of the engine. Instead other soft alloys are used which mimic precisely the "lead effect" without the poison being spread about. There are many other points to make but not the right place to do it.

The Chinese engine is interesting because many of the motors that company uses are not Chinese. They come from Korea. Lots more information about that motor needed as all the Chinese motors we worked on were very nice clean motors.

So again it's an interesting video but it has no place for making decisions about what makes of bike are best.

It'd be good to know the makeup of the particles. Are they simply dirt? Or perhaps bits of metal worn off during the 'break-in' process. Or worse, machining swarf not cleaned out before assembly.

Maybe he mentioned that, but with my usual abhorrence of videos as time-wasting, I didn't watch the whole thing.

And, of course, to be fully scientific, one must use precisely the same oil in all engines. Run them under similar circumstances, for precisely the same time.

And, to be fair, their should be follow-ups, testing at the second and third oil changes. Perhaps some engines are less 'tight', allowing in exterior pollutants.

Extra giggles for taking time to comment on a forum about a video you think is a waste of time.

~yawns loudly~

*makes a jerkoff motion in the air*

enjoy the mental masturbation on this one, y'all. can we start another oil thread after this? i'd enjoy that very much.

-g

But this is what riding is all about -- concerns about gear, accessories, oil, helmets, chrome, tires, top cases, USB power, paint color, decals, brown keys, speedometer error, mufflers, and all things for which to masturbate mentally.

And sometimes rides. 8)

Thing is, I can read through all the new posts in less time than this clown took to reach his dubious conclusion.

At least in a written article, you can skim for content.

There, 30 seconds spent.

Most excellent Jimding. Couldn't have put it better myself!

Somehow the brands that aren't usually associated with reliability had the dirtiest oil. Coincidence? The Enfield is the outlier of the group. I suspect the oil was changed before the bike was delivered.

Basically agree, we never ask ourselves why we are gathered here, it's like driving enjoying the view only with the senses and without reasoning. Indulging in sometimes meaningless considerations does not mean that it doesn't have its appreciation. We read and consider everything, each of us will draw their own consideration.

... Oops ... I forgot: and sometimes rides.

I won't attempt to, promise. (Besides, mental onanism is highly overrated.)

Only because some people have so little to work with.

I watched some of the video, but Youtube isn't really my thing unless I need to really see or hear something. I learned to read, so there's no need for me to have to watch a video of something that I could read about much more quickly. My employer is rolling out video instruction more frequently (e.g. "Watch this video to learn..."), and it's making me crazy. Why should I have to watch a video to learn the same thing that I could learn in half the time if I read about it? Don't get me wrong - video/audio is definitely useful (and better) in many cases and I use it when it's necessary, but this dude could have just written about the shitty/good manufacturing processes of various motorcycle makers. Why the long, boring, hard-to-skim video format? IDK?

Okay - off of my soapbox - Are there any "real" takeaways here? I'm breaking-in my 2018 GTS 300... Should I drop the oil earlier (than 600 miles) to get all the "harmful" Italian contaminants out of the engine? Or is this all horse shit?

Entertainment-value aside, I generally agree with you, although I sometimes feel like we've been some years into a post-literate social vibe that regards most anything text-driven as tedious. I say: stick with the schedule.

I'm an avid YouTube watcher, especially instructional videos. Sometimes the video shows things that are not explained in the audio or specifically pointed out in video action but the unspoken details can be the key. Example: I purchased the LED headlight kit for my 2009 GTV/250 from Scooterwest. I struggled with getting the wiring to fit in the headlight housing. I watched Robot's video several times and watched closely to the section I was struggling with. He didn't describe what he was doing but I got the trick by paying close attention to the video even tho he didn't describe it verbally. I'm don't think I'd have figured out the trick if all I did was read about it on their site. I then started a thread on MV for other GTV owners.

I can quote tens of tasks that YouTube video has helped me with.

I'm not arguing, just presenting out an alternative perspective.

Best!
Miguel

Edited to add text in blue.

I personally do change oil really early on brand new engines. scooters and motorcycles 100 miles and then the next is 600 miles and then normal schedule, my normal is 4-5k. Now on new cars/trucks I also change oil early 500 miles and then again at 3K and then normal intervals.

But hey that's me. I have seen to many first oil changes with metal shavings. I did alot of oil changes working at a MC dealer in my teen years.

Chinese scooters recommend changing the oil immediately if it's out of a crate then at 300km, both rear end and engine oil. I just ordered another crate scooter and after it comes out of the box both oils will be changed in that order.

Never seen that recommended before over here in the UK. And I've built a few Chinese bikes. Of course, if you are talking about 20 years ago that may be true, just never seen it over here. Then again we don't get the very cheap Chinese bikes that you guys seem to get.

OAD, there should be metal in the first oil change. Not masses but some. If not that's a worry and means someone has not been running in the bike with enough power and may have glazed the cylinder/s. On the other hand if someone has used too much power then there is usually too much metal in the oil. In a case like that some of that metal in the oil should be still inside the engine usually stuck to the cylinder honing! It means they have probably shortened the bikes engine life.

I don't know ... maybe the piston rings are sufficient to prevent the chips from damaging the walls and in any case the oil filter should hold them in a particular way; also for this reason changing the engine oil after a maximum of one thousand kilometers (generally) and also the transmission oil is more than recommended.

That's because you guys have rules. In this Country they call it free enterprise. As in, "As long as you're not killing anybody, have at it." Too many Importers here ordered the cheapest versions they could for maximum profit with little regard for long term good will. Many just folded up there tents and started under a new name so that the stink of their previous activities didn't follow them.

This is not the case in Italy, we can be even stricter than the rest of the EU in terms of regulations and I guarantee you that it is.
It is also a disadvantage, many companies do not invest in our country because they cannot do "everything" what they want.
Yet there is always something wrong as it should, if you have a dog that is too clean it will get sick and if you have it with too many ticks it will still get sick; it's hard to find a way in between.

LOL. Saying Peugeots are reliable wasn't enough? What are the odds that the Chinese motorcycle they used just happened to have a dirty Korean engine, instead of the precisely machined and manufactured motors China is famous for? I suspect you've seen the motorcycle equivalent of Japanese Steel or German Steel in the knife world. Those phrases both mean Made in China.
I don't think anything about the story surprised anyone, except for the Enfield.

Your ignorance is showing again Motovista...lol! I see you are not keen to take up my offer then? It was a serious one and well meant. You'd learn a thing or two for sure that would alter the way you think about many things regarding engines, oil and particularly the bikes from China that we get over here. Oh, and Citroen and Peugeot too...

Hey, c'mon, that's the lifeline of all bike & scoot forums.

Like, in our local classic Brit bikes forum, there is a new consensus that engines from 50's and 60's, typical project bikes, actually run just fine with standard modern fully synthetic oils...contrary to earlier purists' opinions. Even the wet clutch ones.

Bite, anyone...?

I'm in this camp too.

Compared to manuals, even the Haynes ones, videos are so much better in showing the tiny details for repair jobs. Following a good vid while doing some repair feels almost like cheating, you'll just do as told and get things done.

Now, the only thing still in process for me is how to operate pad with greesy hands... I'm a devoted Android users nowadays, so I used to have my old apple pad in my 'work shop' (read: tiny corner in the even tinier storage room). The darn thing was always slow and finally refused to accept any software updates, so now I've got both my phone and pad dirty and should think of a solution... what I do a lot is press pause and/or rewind and sometimes zoom the pic.

I tend to use the Haynes manual only for torque values and wiring diagrams. For amateur wrenchers like myself, the instructional videos like Scooterwest's are essential viewing. It's not cheating, I see watching them just another tool to enable me to do the job I'm trying to do. Like the old saying goes, 'A picture is worth a thousand words', the same can be said for videos.

I love all of these so much. I change more oil in different bikes and do more tires and brakes in a week than most home owner joe DIY dicks do in a lifetime. But they all wanna talk about oil and this and that and the other thing.

One MAJOR part of my job is keeping your bike running- so, like, it doesn't blow up and you keep coming back for more work.

But everybody wants to believe what bullshittery they read online.

The second MAJOR part of my job? Making sure your bike is safe so you don't die.

Because dead people don't come back for service. And that's kind of a bad look.

So if I say you need tires, best to listen.

-g

not my first rodeo, HUGE difference in shavings in the oil versus small particulate. Thank you Piaggio for using that big particulate screen filter to catch those SHAVINGS from manufacture.

The BEST Vespa repair and maintenance videos were from a guy named Mitch Micburgsma (he's also an MV member but doesn't post much anymore). His videos were creative, brilliantly done and complete. Between Robot's Scooterwest videos and Micbergsma, that's all I needed. Mitch has a speech impediment of sorts and struggles speaking. He is mostly deaf and maybe never learned to speak. Regardless, he doesn't really speak in his videos. Yet they are like opening a repair manual and having it come to life. He calls out bolt and wrench sizes, torque values, tips and tricks in bubbles in video. Or bring things up close to the camera and point things out. I don't think he is a pro wrench but he is good. And like many of us, he works on the ground with the bike on the center stand. And the pace of his videos is perfect, for me anyway . They are a worthwhile watch. He covers a lot of different non Vespa topics as well.

Mitch's YouTube channel

Best Miguel