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@jimc avatar
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UTC quote
Worthy of consideration by UK members is this survey by MAG, open to all PTW riders:
Motorcycle Action Group wrote:
MAG polls motorcyclists regarding the petrol engine

The Motorcycle Action Group (MAG) has launched a poll of UK
motorcyclists to gauge opinions on the use of petrol-powered motorcycles.

The UK Government has clearly stated its intent to move away from
traditional fossil-fuelled vehicles to an electric fleet. The Government
has also stated that it will ban sales of new petrol- and diesel-powered
cars and small vans by 2030 and, although it hasn't explicitly included
motorcycles, these are likely to be included at a later stage.

The existing vehicle fleet will neither disappear, nor be replaced,
overnight; however, change is coming. Within the car industry this is
happening at pace. Change and progress is inevitable, but should MAG be
fighting to preserve the internal combustion engine (ICE) for
motorcycles and scooters?

MAG's Chair, Selina Lavender, says: "It is important to acknowledge that
change is coming and as an organisation we are not standing in the way
of progress. If you want to ride an electric motorcycle or scooter, or
indeed have already made the change, then there is a place in MAG for
you. However, at this time the options don't make sense to a great many
riders. They are fearful of being forced off the bikes they cherish and
see them potentially being demoted from a transport choice to a museum
exhibit."

Further to the success of our previous members poll we extend this poll
to all riders in an effort to gauge how important riders feel the move
away from traditional petrol-powered engines is to them.

MAG remains the representative voice of motorcyclists and will do all it
can to represent the views of riders. We are committed to ensuring that
all views are heard, particularly on such an important and complex subject.

Please complete the survey at https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/S5PCWSY

The poll closes at 5pm on Tuesday 20th April 2021.
@attila avatar
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UTC quote
This is also the case for EU countries ...
But there are distinctions.
Vehicles for industrial and commercial use are not named and ... imagine the factories that only produce sports and luxury cars, the negative impact on jobs because it costs less to mass-produce an electric car. All the industries in the tertiary sector that produce accessory elements of the engine and wear elements, a revolution!
Lawmakers impose a tight and non-gradual deadline for which it would take many years to absorb the impact associated with the decommissioning of thousands of workers.
Unfortunately, i also predict the rise of new radical political and trade union movements that will take advantage of social discontent, excuse the little political digression Jim.
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UTC quote
Will be curious to see what happens to the price and frequency of gas stations as jurisdictions start banning the sale of new IC engines.
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UTC quote
Attila wrote:
This is also the case for EU countries ...
But there are distinctions.
Vehicles for industrial and commercial use are not named
Industrial vehicles are already deeply involved in the electrification. In some areas electrified ones are simply more practical than ICE machines (e.g. underground mining to name one niche), some are influenced by emission restrictions (e.g. many ports and terminals equipment, especially multimodal terminals operating very close to cities, the same goes with busses) and in many cases automation and 'robotization' of the industrial vehicles is easier to do with electric machines... even the very 'stupid' robo lawn movers can keep themself charged without human assistance

Ships and planes are still a delicate issue from the emissions viewpoint though.

https://youtu.be/GhIdUWpTKvE

Not many diesels in this port anymore... .nor terminal tractor drivers.
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UTC quote
RRider wrote:
Attila wrote:
This is also the case for EU countries ...
But there are distinctions.
Vehicles for industrial and commercial use are not named
Industrial vehicles are already deeply involved in the electrification. In some areas electrified ones are simply more practical than ICE machines (e.g. underground mining to name one niche), some are influenced by emission restrictions (e.g. many ports and terminals equipment, especially multimodal terminals operating very close to cities, the same goes with busses) and in many cases automation and 'robotization' of the industrial vehicles is easier to do with electric machines... even the very 'stupid' robo lawn movers can keep themself charged without human assistance

Ships and planes are still a delicate issue from the emissions viewpoint though.

https://youtu.be/GhIdUWpTKvE

Not many diesels in this port anymore... .nor terminal tractor drivers.
There are so many countries that still use coal as the main source of power to produce electricity.. Plus like you said the three major source of pollution, trucks, Ship and jet planes will still burn fossil fuel for some time to come..

Let's not forget also how many diesel and petrol generators, pumps and fridges there are used daily or as backup, around the world..

I firmly believe that on this planet there is no such thing as free or clean energy, if you are willing to dig deep into the issue, and analyse the entire picture...

Luckily, this planet knows how to take care of himself, as it has proven time and time again in the past..
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UTC quote
The main polar glacier is melting irreversibly and will raise sea levels by at least three meters above ...
I am 12 meters above but I am equally worried.
Burt ... the sources of pollution you mentioned are only a fraction of those that use internal combustion engines, world agriculture moves with internal combustion engines and they are not the toy lawnmowers of domestic lawns; electric or hybrid commercial vehicles are few, large transport vehicles are and will be for many years with an internal combustion engine ... perhaps hydrogen powered but never electric, the yield (in money) of a transport vehicle is measured by the capacity usefulness of goods, if a third of the weight is made up of heavy accumulators of electricity, the payload decreases and these vehicles cannot afford to stay 24 hours to recharge their huge batteries.
Time in business is money!
Obviously, small two-wheeled vehicles make lightness and ease of use their weapon; when they get heavy and impractical like start and run or you don't have to wait to refuel, they don't sell anymore ... End of story.
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UTC quote
I want a hydrogen powered vespa


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-08/the-radical-idea-to-increase-victoria-s-electric-vehicles/100052474

"By 2030, there would be no new petrol or diesel cars sold - they would all be electric or hydrogen-powered. It would be compulsory for all new property developments to have electric charging stations, and governments would offer generous subsidies to encourage drivers to trade in petrol-guzzling cars in favour of low or zero emission vehicles."


(this is not a proposed law, just an idea from advisory body)
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UTC quote
I think to a greater extent two things will do for petroleum PTW.

One is simple manufacturing- the case for special exemptions for PTW might come from UK manufacturing and would be more powerful than individuals.

The other is demand - I would like a cleaner bike in terms of emissions. Lots of PTW are very dirty; for public health it's not good to retain it, we know that pollution affects the lungs, and we know that it can adversely affect COVID if caught like smoking.

I'd like the motorcycle fraternity in the UK to get behind cleaner bikes. The convenience of them is pretty undermined by the pollution caused.
OP
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UTC quote
I'm also on the side of wanting new PTWs to be far cleaner - electric with a 150 mile range and rapid 20-30 minute charging would fit the bill.

I do think older PTWs should be allowed to continue to exist, but they'd have to have an annual emissions check to ensure they were running at their optimum settings. Perhaps they should also become non-transferable, so could only be scrapped and never sold on. Same for cars.
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UTC quote
Jim ... with me it's okay, I have been a Greenpeace member for over twenty years and i donate them a downloadable share of my taxes.
Obviously I do not allow myself to judge the environmental policies of other countries (England in this case), everyone adapts them to their needs and I as a farmer (I do mechanical weeding without using herbicides) are at the forefront in pushing towards "fuel sources" for really clean engines.
But since we are on the subject, it is these days that the US has renewed the proposal to Denmark to buy Greenland because it is a land rich in untapped mineral resources.
In particular uranium and rare earths, the latter are also indispensable for producing high-tech accumulators and components for electric vehicles.
There appears to have been a referendum and the proposal was rejected ...
The question is this: do they will make in the future wars to support new technologies such as those that have been made (and are being made) to obtain "black gold"? (Petroleum)
OP
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UTC quote
Sadly, I guess the next major territorial wars will be over water access rather than anything else. I'm pretty sure we'll have water restrictions in California this year, perhaps fiercer ones than before.

Back to PTWs... I hope electrification kits will become available for all present ICE vehicles eventually. I'd love our camper van to be electric!
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UTC quote
I am definitely a unicorn with this subject. How can we solve global warming with EV's. Doesn't manufacturing anything create pollution? Even if we can decrease pollution with EV's, Its too late.
White windmills don't absorb sunlight because white reflects it but to make them we create pollution.
Even solar panels absorb sunlight creating heat. Now add asphalt roads, black roof shingles, clearing forests, etc.
My 2nd favorite movie reference is in the Matrix when humans are referred to as a virus. My first favorite is my tag line from the 1968 planet of the apes.
Now if we're talking about speed, torque, etc. I'm on board.

P.S. Ya'll better stock up on coffee Crying or Very sad emoticon
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UTC quote
breaknwind wrote:
I am definitely a unicorn with this subject. How can we solve global warming with EV's. Doesn't manufacturing anything create pollution? Even if we can decrease pollution with EV's, Its too late.
White windmills don't absorb sunlight because white reflects it but to make them we create pollution.
Even solar panels absorb sunlight creating heat. Now add asphalt roads, black roof shingles, clearing forests, etc.
My 2nd favorite movie reference is in the Matrix when humans are referred to as a virus. My first favorite is my tag line from the 1968 planet of the apes.
Now if we're talking about speed, torque, etc. I'm on board.

P.S. Ya'll better stock up on coffee Crying or Very sad emoticon
That's why we should all ride old Vespa's... Keeping them on the road is a better footprint than buying a new cleaner running bike...

My PX actually improves the environment by not being recycled into beer cans...
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UTC quote
breaknwind wrote:
I am definitely a unicorn with this subject. How can we solve global warming with EV's. Doesn't manufacturing anything create pollution? Even if we can decrease pollution with EV's, Its too late.
White windmills don't absorb sunlight because white reflects it but to make them we create pollution.
Even solar panels absorb sunlight creating heat. Now add asphalt roads, black roof shingles, clearing forests, etc.
My 2nd favorite movie reference is in the Matrix when humans are referred to as a virus. My first favorite is my tag line from the 1968 planet of the apes.
Now if we're talking about speed, torque, etc. I'm on board.

P.S. Ya'll better stock up on coffee Crying or Very sad emoticon
I do not know if you are aware that the blades of the "white mills" are made of balsa wood, the main source of supply is in the Amazon and they are clearing acres of forest to produce wood for the propellers of wind turbines.
bluefoam wrote:
That's why we should all ride old Vespa's... Keeping them on the road is a better footprint than buying a new cleaner running bike...

My PX actually improves the environment by not being recycled into beer cans...
Your old PX pollutes a little more because it has a non-catalyzed two-stroke engine but ...
There is a solution for that too by using a passive oxidizing catalyst (Two-way) capable of oxidizing carbon monoxide (CO) and unburned hydrocarbons (HxCx) in vehicles that do not use the lambda probe; by introducing air before the catalyst, in order to allow a second combustion in the catalyst, the same results are obtained as for systems with a probe, but there is a higher fuel consumption (slightly on a small engine).
The introduction of air can be obtained with a small low pressure electric compressor whose flow rate can be controlled by a speed sensor applied on the generator disk. Easy.
It just takes someone to build it.
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UTC quote
[

Balsa wood is unlikely to support its own weight over the scale of a turbine blade...
Quote:
Most blades are made with fibreglass-reinforced polyester or epoxy. Carbon fibre or aramid (Kevlar) is also used as reinforcement material
@attila avatar
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UTC quote
bluefoam wrote:
[

Balsa wood is unlikely to support its own weight over the scale of a turbine blade...
Quote:
Most blades are made with fibreglass-reinforced polyester or epoxy. Carbon fibre or aramid (Kevlar) is also used as reinforcement material
https://www.nextville.it/news/42341/eolico-le-pale-si-possono-riciclare/

I translate:

"Instead, the wind industry would like their products to become recyclable," said Greg Alvarez, spokesman for the American Wind Energy Association. Vestas, for example, has announced that its turbines will need to be fully recyclable by 2040.

However, so far recycling wind turbines hasn't seemed that simple, as they are generally made with a thermosetting glass fiber compound, which may also contain polystyrene foam, polyurethane foam or balsa wood. "
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UTC quote
My point was that if we lived on an all white(or reflective) planet, then we would be correct in claiming that greenhouse gasses are the only problem.
Ice ages came and went many times before man over colonized Earth.
@attila avatar
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UTC quote
breaknwind wrote:
My point was that if we lived on an all white(or reflective) planet, then we would be correct in claiming that greenhouse gasses are the only problem.
Ice ages came and went many times before man over colonized Earth.
Yes, however, there is no news that anyone has complained of having gone below zero.
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UTC quote
Attila wrote:
breaknwind wrote:
My point was that if we lived on an all white(or reflective) planet, then we would be correct in claiming that greenhouse gasses are the only problem.
Ice ages came and went many times before man over colonized Earth.
Yes, however, there is no news that anyone has complained of having gone below zero.
I bet the dinosaurs would disagree with you, if they could Razz emoticon
@attila avatar
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UTC quote
breaknwind wrote:
Attila wrote:
breaknwind wrote:
My point was that if we lived on an all white(or reflective) planet, then we would be correct in claiming that greenhouse gasses are the only problem.
Ice ages came and went many times before man over colonized Earth.
Yes, however, there is no news that anyone has complained of having gone below zero.
I bet the dinosaurs would disagree with you, if they could Razz emoticon
Those went extinct due to a large meteorite during a time when it was hot ... and suddenly everything got too hot.
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UTC quote
Meanwhile, Out of Left Field...
...Porsche, itself pushing electrons with its very intriguing Taycan, is also heavily involved with this:

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/porsche-e-fuel-synthetic-gas-racing-performance-efficiency/

It sounds almost too good to be true, but I'm crossing my fingers for one vital reason: all those ICE vehicles, running or not, aren't magically disappearing from the surface of the Earth, and dramatically reducing their overall impact while also keeping them out of the industrial-waste cycle for as long as possible is a potential win-win.
OP
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UTC quote
Attila wrote:
I do not know if you are aware that the blades of the "white mills" are made of balsa wood,
True. They are usually partly made with balsa wood.
Quote:
the main source of supply is in the Amazon and they are clearing acres of forest to produce wood for the propellers of wind turbines.
Untrue in the main.

The main source of the balsa is from plantations in Ecuador. Balsa grows so fast that the trees are harvested in as little as three years. Incorporating them into turbine blades then locks that carbon away. Very efficient.

However, a combination of Covid and a upsurge in turbine blade manufacture has led to some illegal trade in balsa from Peru, though it is not normally commercially viable to harvest it from natural forests.

https://timbercheck.blog/2020/11/27/is-that-wind-turbine-made-from-illegally-harvested-balsa-wood/

(and other sources)
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I didn't know ... thanks for the updates.
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UTC quote
Attila wrote:
I didn't know ... thanks for the updates.
No worries.

Sometimes the total life-cycle carbon equations of manufactured objects can be counter-intuitive.

Next to come, 'free' grain from the sea? :
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/apr/09/sea-rice-eelgrass-marine-grain-chef-angel-leon-marsh-climate-crisis
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I don't understand what all the fuss is about. In a few years we will be able to genetically engineer dinosaurs again. We just need to bury them and dig them up again a few years later, and there's your free gas.

You know how you make lithium for your batteries? You need to blow up a star.
OP
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UTC quote
znomit wrote:
I don't understand what all the fuss is about. In a few years we will be able to genetically engineer dinosaurs again. We just need to bury them and dig them up again a few years later, and there's your free gas.

You know how you make lithium for your batteries? You need to blow up a star.
We're all made of star-dust.
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UTC quote
jimc wrote:
znomit wrote:
I don't understand what all the fuss is about. In a few years we will be able to genetically engineer dinosaurs again. We just need to bury them and dig them up again a few years later, and there's your free gas.

You know how you make lithium for your batteries? You need to blow up a star.
We're all made of star-dust.
And we drink a cocktail of hydrogen and oxygen seasoned with various germs.
UTC

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UTC quote
If it happens
Pretty good chance that, if two-wheeled recreation survives, it will be due to electrification. Saw a survey that the younger generation vastly prefers e-bikes, not only for the ecological benefit, but for the low-complexity (for the rider) and almost zero maintenance. Charge it and ride it. Get new tires and brake pads when they wear out. Done.

Who knows, might even give in myself. I get less and less satisfaction from wrenching. Not that I'd get rid of any of the current stable. But if I'm lucky enough to keep riding long enough, might come a time that they need replacing. An e-ecooter with 100 miles range and 75 MPH speed would fit in nicely.

Unlike IC vehicles, pretty good chance most of the parts on electric vehicles will be modular. One supplier even offers bolt-on suspension for cars with motors built in. Saw that Yamaha just came out with a high-power motor for cars (although I suspect it might end up being wedged into a bike) with the controller electronics built in. Just add a battery.

https://electrek.co/2021/04/13/yamaha-develops-350-kw-motor-for-electric-hypercars-demonstrates-1400-kw-application/#more-175999

Anyone for a 469 HP bike?

Remove the need for 'smogging' powertrains, and anyone can build cars and bikes from off-the-shelf parts. AWD is simple. And manufacturing becomes more a matter of assembly.
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