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I thought this was interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEf9Fdvx_Sc

I don't think 4% better MPG is worth the cost.
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I'm shy to spend 9m on this video, but I agree with your conclusion that the savings probably isn't worth it.

If you have to drive at-all out-of-your-way to get ethanol-free, the modest potential gas savings disappears on those extra miles to the station (nevermind the additional cost and time).
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What interested me most was how fast the ethanol separated from the gas when water was introduced. That is why I would use non ethanol gas if the bike was not a daily rider. Or make damn sure to use an additive that prevents faze separation.
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my personal test on non ethanol versus 10% add is.

in my 2002 ford truck 2wd 5.4 e gas mpg was averaging 13-14
non e was 15-17

So about 10% better with non

same goes with the scooters roughly about 10% better mpg with non e gas.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Fs0iXksklY

If the reason is to pollute less and save money, there are alternative systems.
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Fortunately
Fortunately my regular errand routes take me by my ethanol-free suppliers, both within a couple of miles of home, and I almost always fuel my 2-wheelers and lawn equipment from a 5-gallon can I fill up when I get gas for the truck.

Saw an article the other day that 40% of the US corn crop goes to produce ethanol. No figures on how much petroleum is consumed in that production, both directly as fuel, and in production of ag-chemicals. But if the corn is being grown on irrigated land, approximately 750 gallons of water was needed to generate one gallon of ethanol.

Could feed a lot of people with that much corn.

If ethanol is offered as a choice, I'm fine with that. Not so happy when it is being forced down our throats (unless it has been aged at least 12 years, of course).
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As I was reading this I was forcing some ethanol down my throat. (Canadian)
That Canadian etoh seems "nicer" somehow.
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Tor2ga wrote:
As I was reading this I was forcing some ethanol down my throat. (Canadian)
That Canadian etoh seems "nicer" somehow.
My bicycle runs really well on a 4% ethanol mix. Above 6% though the range decreases.
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znomit wrote:
Tor2ga wrote:
As I was reading this I was forcing some ethanol down my throat. (Canadian)
That Canadian etoh seems "nicer" somehow.
My bicycle runs really well on a 4% ethanol mix. Above 6% though the range decreases.
4% ethanol is going to be fatal! But at least your corpse will harbor no germs. 0.04% is a more comfortable buzz.
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They sell ethanol free across the Hudson River. I managed to buy a tank last October and the scooter did feel a little more responsive but it could have been my imagination.
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kz1000ST wrote:
They sell ethanol free across the Hudson River. I managed to buy a tank last October and the scooter did feel a little more responsive but it could have been my imagination.
It is a little similar to when the homemade "moonshine" was made during Prohibition, there is the risk of blinding the Vespa.
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kz1000ST wrote:
They sell ethanol free across the Hudson River. I managed to buy a tank last October and the scooter did feel a little more responsive but it could have been my imagination.
Ahem...by "across the river", you mean here in Joisey?

As an ex-NYer, now on the central Jersey Shore, I haven't seen anyplace offering Ethanol-free gas...and if I had, I'd have stopped in my tracks immediately to investigate. There's been so much back-and-forth over the issue that my head still spins while in conversation about it (anything over 10% I'm dead-set against because food-chain, but 10%-versus-none-at-all?). Of course, my ride is a "daily", so I guess I have no horse in this race, but I'm still trying to sort out issues like Ethanol and octane rating...
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Juan_ORhea wrote:
4% ethanol is going to be fatal! But at least your corpse will harbor no germs. 0.04% is a more comfortable buzz.
I suspect he meant 4% going in, not internally. Although I prefer my beer with a bit more ABV. Or wine, in the 12-15% range.

Mostly I've gone to 'distilled spirits', more in the 43% range, with the occasional cask-strength variant . Looking forward to Memorial day, when I can switch from 'brown' to 'white'.

But all my IC engines are teetotalers.
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Ethanol sucks!
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There is nothing wrong with Fuel that has Ethanol in it. Period.
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Double M wrote:
There is nothing wrong with Fuel that has Ethanol in it. Period.
I don't agree with that statement. Exclamation point.

The original premise of ethanol was to use it to reduce our dependence on imported oil, by "stretching" a gallon of pure gas by mixing in ethanol. Long term research shows that it takes at least a gallon of gas to produce a gallon of ethanol (fuel for equipment, water, fertilizer), so there is no net gain, other than for the corn producers. It still pollutes. The price/value fluctuates with the price of corn. Older engines can be affected by disintegrating fuel hoses and other rubber parts that come in contact with the ethanol. Since it tends to absorb water, it is especially hard on equipment in marine use, including metal and fiberglass fuel tanks. Left to sit for a length of time, ethanol laced fuel will stratify in a fuel tank, causing damage to the tank due to water and corrosion.

Apart from the scientific evidence that ethanol-based particles in air can kill people and make them sick, more recent scientific analysis links corn for ethanol to declining bee populations, with potentially catastrophic implications for many other high-value agricultural crops (almonds, apples) that depend on these insects for pollination. While the overall impacts on climate remain uncertain, there is no clear evidence that ethanol is part of the solution rather than the problem.

Corn prices remain nearly double from their level in 2005, when the major elements of ethanol subsidies and mandates began to be put in place. With lower oil prices, the higher cost ethanol actually elevates the price at the pump further. According to the U.S. Department of Energy, vehicles typically go 3 to 4 percent fewer miles per gallon on E10 and 4 to 5 percent fewer miles per gallon on E15, because ethanol packs only about two-thirds the BTU's of gasoline. In straight fact: your engine produces less horsepower and you get worse fuel mileage.

I run ethanol free gas in my scooter because it runs better AND gives me more miles on a tank of gas, even though it costs a bit more (thanks to the corn subsidies). Ethanol causes accelerated engine wear, as well as fuel-system damage. That alone should be why we should move away from ethanol use in our gas.

Ethanol is an experiment that has proven no advantage, and the American consumer continues to pay. Ethanol sales are actually projected to decline, according to a Congressional Budget Office report, from 135 billion gallons to 125 billion gallons in 2022.
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Captain Jim wrote:
The original premise of ethanol was to use it to reduce our dependence on imported oil, by "stretching" a gallon of pure gas by mixing in ethanol. Long term research shows that it takes at least a gallon of gas to produce a gallon of ethanol (fuel for equipment, water, fertilizer), so there is no net gain, other than for the corn producers. It still pollutes. The price/value fluctuates with the price of corn.
Political statement.
Captain Jim wrote:
Older engines can be affected by disintegrating fuel hoses and other rubber parts that come in contact with the ethanol.
Since it tends to absorb water, it is especially hard on equipment in marine use, including metal and fiberglass fuel tanks. Left to sit for a length of time, ethanol laced fuel will stratify in a fuel tank, causing damage to the tank due to water and corrosion.
Aviator47 wrote:
All motor vehicles sold in the US for the last 2+ decades have been required to use E-10 tolerant fuel system components, so the threat of E-10 damage is minimal, unless you have replaced factory fuel lines or carb components with non E-10 tolerant hoses. There are non-compliant hoses available in auto parts stores, BTW, but they are not supposed to be labeled "fuel lines".

Water absorption and the resulting phase separation should not be an issue for you, unless you allow the scooter to sit with a half full or lower tank for periods of 90 days or more. Keep in mind that every time you fill the tank, you reduce the ppm of water in the fuel mix. Even with your area's average relative humidity of 60%, you should not have a problem if you are topping off at least once a month. And even with prolonged inactivity, there is no guaranty the fuel will absorb enough water to result in phase separation. And if the petrol station is refilling their storage tanks every month or so, the water content of the fuel you buy will be minimal.
The late great smartest MV member ever.
Captain Jim wrote:
Corn prices remain nearly double from their level in 2005, when the major elements of ethanol subsidies and mandates began to be put in place. With lower oil prices, the higher cost ethanol actually elevates the price at the pump further. According to the U.S. Department of Energy, vehicles typically go 3 to 4 percent fewer miles per gallon on E10 and 4 to 5 percent fewer miles per gallon on E15, because ethanol packs only about two-thirds the BTU's of gasoline. In straight fact: your engine produces less horsepower and you get worse fuel mileage.
Political statement.
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So what's one of the few things that hasn't doubled in price since 2005? Gasoline Razz emoticon
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breaknwind wrote:
So what's one of the few things that hasn't doubled in price since 2005? Gasoline Razz emoticon
Internet advice is still only worth 2¢.
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I find nothing Captain Jim or Aviator47 said to be either political, contradictory, or incorrect. The "gasohol" initially marketed in the 1970s was absolutely sold as a domestic response to the recent oil crisis. It was literally positioned as "American farmers helping take our country back from Arab control." I remember the corn cartoon icons above the pumps.

Aside from the lower BTU content per gallon, ethanol fuel is a nonissue unless it sits around for a while, which happens with scooters used seasonally, or is used in engines and systems not designed for it, which could include old scooters (which I don't own) or old boats (which I do own).

For modern cars and scooters where the gas gets used before it gets old, you're right, there's nothing wrong with ethanol.

But with an asterisk, not a period.
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My feeling
I feel like the American public has been forced to adopt ethanol. For a while there were few if any stations that had ethanol-free. The situation has improved, and seems to be improving. Worth noting that the the refining industry has been forced to incorporate ethanol by the federal government. So far from a free choice. While this forum is intended to avoid political issues, ethanol by definition is political.

I'd be fine with ethanol as a choice. If you want to use it and see nothing wrong with using it, then feel free. But I also want the choice of not using it.
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Re: My feeling
Jimding wrote:
I feel like the American public has been forced to adopt ethanol. For a while there were few if any stations that had ethanol-free. The situation has improved, and seems to be improving. Worth noting that the the refining industry has been forced to incorporate ethanol by the federal government. So far from a free choice. While this forum is intended to avoid political issues, ethanol by definition is political.

I'd be fine with ethanol as a choice. If you want to use it and see nothing wrong with using it, then feel free. But I also want the choice of not using it.
... so ethanol is political by definition or is it only political for its use?
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Re: My feeling
Jimding wrote:
I feel like the American public has been forced to adopt ethanol. For a while there were few if any stations that had ethanol-free. The situation has improved, and seems to be improving. Worth noting that the the refining industry has been forced to incorporate ethanol by the federal government. So far from a free choice. While this forum is intended to avoid political issues, ethanol by definition is political.

I'd be fine with ethanol as a choice. If you want to use it and see nothing wrong with using it, then feel free. But I also want the choice of not using it.
Your feelings are correct.. If you do a search online you will find all the reasons of why ethanol was kind of forced on the US market...

I remember reading something along the lines of too much sugar cane production, a promise to the farmers of a massive yearly purchase, and let's not forget that it does cost much less to acquire, and it gives the customer much less mileage, therefore making a more profitable proposition for all business involved in the fuel industry..

As it turned out because of the amount of water required for sugar cane farming, the ethanol was labelled just another environment disaster...

In South America huge part of the forest was destroyed to make room for the new sugar cane production.. Possibly the reason why in some states the ethanol level is so high in percentage in the fuel...
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People, do your research before you bitch about the government forcing you to do stuff(political). I was more interested in the difference(not why I have to) in the fuel.

Ethanol's first use was to power an engine in 1826, and in 1876, Nicolaus Otto, the inventor of the modern four-cycle internal combustion engine, used ethanol to power an early engine. Ethanol also was used as a lighting fuel in the 1850s, but its use curtailed when it was taxed as liquor to help pay for the Civil War. Ethanol use as a fuel continued after the tax was repealed, and fueled Henry Ford's Model T in 1908. The first ethanol blended with gasoline for use as an octane booster occurred in the 1920s and 1930s, and was in high demand during World War II because of fuel shortages.


[snip]

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-environment/2020/09/25/arizona-was-once-climate-policy-leader-in-west-what-happened/5841376002/
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Ethanol fuel dissolved the fuel line in my Aprilia Scarabeo 500ie

Was a pain to replace it too.
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Correction, the first internal combustion engine was invented by the Italians (as usual) Barsanti and Matteucci and was powered by hydrogen gas.
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The Barsanti-Matteucci engine was an internal combustion engine using the free-​piston principle in an atmospheric two cycle engine.

Nicolaus Otto, the inventor of the modern four-cycle internal combustion engine

Why do current MV members feel the need to argue about meaningless crap. I think I'ts time to back off a bit from this
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Captain Jim wrote:
Double M wrote:
There is nothing wrong with Fuel that has Ethanol in it. Period.
Ethanol is an experiment that has proven no advantage, and the American consumer continues to pay. Ethanol sales are actually projected to decline, according to a Congressional Budget Office report, from 135 billion gallons to 125 billion gallons in 2022.
Here in europe we mostly have E10. Ethernol was initially added at a rate of 5% (E5) which we have all been consuming for years, but this year it goes up to E10. Most vehicles will run on it unless you have something older than 1995 over here, so in the main there is no problem for most folks. Over 93% of all cars in the Uk can run on E10. Older cars can usually be modded to run on it, but at a cost of course. The reduction in mpg's isn't really considered an issue over here as most of our cars give us much better mpg's than the cars you guys get. My own car gives me between 55-70mpg on E10 depending how I drive. It still performs like a 2.0ltr car too! E5 was marginally better but not much.

The main purpose of adding ethernol over here in europe is to reduce pollution and not as a substitute for petrol, to reduce it's consumption par se. E10 petrol reduces both CO2 and HC emissions. Ethernol actually cleans your engine from the inside too and reduces carbon deposits significantly allowing the engine to remain cleaner for longer. The attraction of water over periods of time is not an issue for most motorists with their cars in fairly constant use. Motorcycles that are stored a lot can suffer from this of course and also may suffer from corrosion inside the fuel system, but with the right fuel treatment, it's not a problem.
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breaknwind wrote:
The Barsanti-Matteucci engine was an internal combustion engine using the free-​piston principle in an atmospheric two cycle engine.

Nicolaus Otto, the inventor of the modern four-cycle internal combustion engine

Why do current MV members feel the need to argue about meaningless crap. I think I'ts time to back off a bit from this
He's not actually arguing he's just pointing out something, which he is free to do. Just like any of us might do. I like the article you posted above. Very informative for us Europeans on how stuff is going over there.
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If anyone was paying attention to the video. I learned how to make my own ethanol free gas, at the cost of lower octane. Nerd emoticon
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breaknwind wrote:
If anyone was paying attention to the video. I learned how to make my own ethanol free gas, at the cost of lower octane. Nerd emoticon
You didn't really back off for that long... Laughing emoticon

Just to be clear, I don't believe many people do come into this forum to learn about ethanol, and if you think that other people comment are meaningless crap, just remember, no one really force you to read it...

No need to be rude, if you don't agree with another member..

Perhaps backing off is the best option sometimes...
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breaknwind wrote:
If anyone was paying attention to the video. I learned how to make my own ethanol free gas, at the cost of lower octane. Nerd emoticon
Yeah, it's not that hard. Can we see a new bio-fuel company called 'breaknwind' anytime soon?
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Stromrider wrote:
breaknwind wrote:
If anyone was paying attention to the video. I learned how to make my own ethanol free gas, at the cost of lower octane. Nerd emoticon
Yeah, it's not that hard. Can we see a new bio-fuel company called 'breaknwind' anytime soon?
Perhaps a company called "breakwind" should sell methanol instead... Razz emoticon
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Burt37 wrote:
breaknwind wrote:
If anyone was paying attention to the video. I learned how to make my own ethanol free gas, at the cost of lower octane. Nerd emoticon
You didn't really back off for that long... Laughing emoticon
Well I guess I'll have to explain myself. When I posted about backing off, I meant I wasn't going to start anymore threads.(this is my thread, isn't it??).

I'll still hang around and help out with any ones BV issues or an odd post.
Have fun ladies.
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breaknwind wrote:
I'll still hang around and help out with any ones BV issues or an odd post.
Have fun ladies.
Now, that's the spirit, and fun is all we have left...
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Never
I hae never seen a scientific study showing the claimed reduced carbon output of ethanol, taking into account all the oil that is burned to produce it. The studies I have seen say that, at least for ethanol from corn, basically the energy output from ethanol is matched by the energy input from oil to produce it. So not replacing oil in any meaningful way.

You can probably learn all you need to know about ethanol by studying which groups are forcing it on the American public.

Oh, and that very same group is resisting the switch to electric cars. Tells you how dedicated they are to helping the environment. Just a matter of greedy self-interest.

As I said, I just want to have a choice.
@attila avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
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Location: Latina (Italy)
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@attila avatar
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8291
Location: Latina (Italy)
UTC quote
Re: Never
Jimding wrote:
I hae never seen a scientific study showing the claimed reduced carbon output of ethanol, taking into account all the oil that is burned to produce it. The studies I have seen say that, at least for ethanol from corn, basically the energy output from ethanol is matched by the energy input from oil to produce it. So not replacing oil in any meaningful way.

You can probably learn all you need to know about ethanol by studying which groups are forcing it on the American public.

Oh, and that very same group is resisting the switch to electric cars. Tells you how dedicated they are to helping the environment. Just a matter of greedy self-interest.

As I said, I just want to have a choice.
Right, it's always the same story all over the world and forever.
UTC

Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3766
Location: East Anglia, UK
 
Ossessionato
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3766
Location: East Anglia, UK
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Hi Jim, yes there are some debatable points concerning ethernol.

Europe has the 'sustainably fuel order' meaning we must move to more sustainable fuels. The UK has elected to be part of that even though we are not within the Euro zone anymore. Ethernol is part of that whilst ice engines are still in use.

But as per my post above, the main and most immediate reason for using ethernol over here and in europe is to reduce air pollution from car exhausts, and not to actually replace petrol in part or full par se. Although that is indeed in part by default what happens. In the UK alone 100,000 people die each year from car exhaust pollution from diesels and increasingly from petrol engines. In the states it's a lot higher.

Petrol particulate matter is increasingly being seen around the world as a considerable danger to human health. This is because of the increasingly more efficient petrol engines that we all now run. This inevitably involves turbo charging and/or higher compression ratios. This creates more power and economy but also brings higher levels of deadly particulates. Adding ethernol reduces those particulates by some way thus helping air quality. There are many reports and studies showing this. One of the benefits of ethernol is that it reduces CO2 and HC emissions at the tail pipe. This further helps reduce deaths and is the objective. Engines run considerably cleaner with ethernol and that is a fact. And that is the main objective of the exercise. The normally unseen petrol particulates (nano in size) drop by quite an amount with ethernol in use. The net benefit of ethernol in terms of how much CO2 is produced overall is debatable but the health of the nation comes first. Since using ethernol there has been an improvement in the amount of particulates produced by engines, and net CO2 and HC from cars. It's important to understand that petroleum production from start to finish (getting oil out the ground to petrol production) is highly dirty with considerable CO2 production and considered by many studies to be more than producing ethernol on a gallon by gallon basis.

Note: Using some mixes of ethernol CO and HC emissions can in some situations be as high as using normal petrol without ethernol. The higher the mix of ethernol the lower CO and HC emissions. It must be noted that the US way of testing for CO & HC emissions (US06) is different to European method (NEDC). We record lower emission because your method of testing requires large throttle openings with the engines going into open loop uncontrolled power output areas. The NEDC method is based upon more normal driving thus returning differing results.
@jess avatar
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Petty Tyrant
0:7 And counting
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Location: Bay Area, California
 
Petty Tyrant
@jess avatar
0:7 And counting
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Location: Bay Area, California
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Friendly reminder: please don't post entire articles here. Link to them, by all means, excerpt the important bits, that's all fair use. But wholesale inclusion of an entire article will result in legal action that none of us wants.
@attila avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
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Location: Latina (Italy)
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@attila avatar
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8291
Location: Latina (Italy)
UTC quote
jess wrote:
Friendly reminder: please don't post entire articles here. Link to them, by all means, excerpt the important bits, that's all fair use. But wholesale inclusion of an entire article will result in legal action that none of us wants.
Copyright problem, I guess ... But if I have to publish part of the translated article from the link, can I continue to do so?
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