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I'm trying to understand the logic behind the float chamber main jet bore hole on si24 p2 carb. From another post I made it was mentioned that the 1.5 mm bore hole is restrictive if putting in large main jet. I've just got my dr177 pretty much spot on with an ac140 be5 and 120 mj running on sip road 2.0 plug is chocolate brown on all running conditions, wot runs and pottering around town etc. I now want to move to a polini box I have. Jet suggested is three over sip road 2.0 so if I start about 125 and work down figured I would be safe. But will my carb be able to feed a 125 mj with that standard 1.5 mm feed? I don't want to drill it as it looks a right faff and don't have the tools. A 125 mj is 1,25 mm so is under 1.5mm right or does it not work like this? I have sip version 2 fast flow tap fitted so will this help? I'm not gonna do polinibox if I can't run with what I've got to hand so your help appreciated. Thanks
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Yes, important. If you imagine putting a 150 jet in series with a 125 the resulting flow will be less than either alone. Like resistors in series but nowhere near as simple to work out.
Only need a 2mm drill bit. Not difficult to do.
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Thanks for reply. But pragmatically, will a 125 jet work? I've got .25mm free in theory if its 1.5 mm . I likely only need a 123 or 122 jet. My 120 jet is working fine so will a 125 really not work on a 1.5 mm bore? Its easy to do if you've got the equipment to do it and clean it out etc. Compressed air blower, drills etc. I don't want to buy stuff just to stick a polinibox on.
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Yes it will work.
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SoCalGuy wrote:
Yes it will work.
Thanks mate. I will work down from 125 . Much appreciated
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I put a 5/64" drill bit with a speed hex end in one of those screwdrivers that has four bits and did it by hand. Total control and nice and easy. You got this!
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ferriswolf wrote:
Thanks for reply. But pragmatically, will a 125 jet work? I've got .25mm free in theory if its 1.5 mm . I likely only need a 123 or 122 jet. My 120 jet is working fine so will a 125 really not work on a 1.5 mm bore? Its easy to do if you've got the equipment to do it and clean it out etc. Compressed air blower, drills etc. I don't want to buy stuff just to stick a polinibox on.
As everyone has said, easy to do by hand and just blow it out. Is easier than it looks.

Putting in a bigger jet than needed will work. However, only at WOT. When at half throttle or less the bigger jet will have less flow and will work like a jet that is too big. Fluid dynamics, eh.
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Jack221 wrote:
ferriswolf wrote:
Thanks for reply. But pragmatically, will a 125 jet work? I've got .25mm free in theory if its 1.5 mm . I likely only need a 123 or 122 jet. My 120 jet is working fine so will a 125 really not work on a 1.5 mm bore? Its easy to do if you've got the equipment to do it and clean it out etc. Compressed air blower, drills etc. I don't want to buy stuff just to stick a polinibox on.
As everyone has said, easy to do by hand and just blow it out. Is easier than it looks.

Putting in a bigger jet than needed will work. However, only at WOT. When at half throttle or less the bigger jet will have less flow and will work like a jet that is too big. Fluid dynamics, eh.
Is there any advantage to enlarging that 1.5mm hole with his 1.22mm mj?
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ferriswolf wrote:
Thanks Swiss. Thats great. I found this excellent video on how to do it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7TJXHEAfaA
That's the video I followed when I drilled mine.

Make sure you protect rim of float chamber with tape, as shown in video.

I also put a little bit of tape on drill bit to ensure you don't drill in too far. I used a needle to gauge the distance into jet hole and put tape on drill bit same distance.
The needle is also good to show you the angle the drill bit needs to be so you don't veer off.

After that it was actually surprisingly easy.
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cazshie wrote:
ferriswolf wrote:
Thanks Swiss. Thats great. I found this excellent video on how to do it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7TJXHEAfaA
That's the video I followed when I drilled mine.

Make sure you protect rim of float chamber with tape, as shown in video.

I also put a little bit of tape on drill bit to ensure you don't drill in too far. I used a needle to gauge the distance into jet hole and put tape on drill bit same distance.
The needle is also good to show you the angle the drill bit needs to be so you don't veer off.

After that it was actually surprisingly easy.
You've got a kick ass 225, what main jet are you on? I'm using a rather tame dr177 so trying to establish the optimum main jet you can run on an undrilled Si24 as I'm likely not going to be higher than 124 with adding polinibox. Thx
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Ray8 wrote:
Jack221 wrote:
ferriswolf wrote:
Thanks for reply. But pragmatically, will a 125 jet work? I've got .25mm free in theory if its 1.5 mm . I likely only need a 123 or 122 jet. My 120 jet is working fine so will a 125 really not work on a 1.5 mm bore? Its easy to do if you've got the equipment to do it and clean it out etc. Compressed air blower, drills etc. I don't want to buy stuff just to stick a polinibox on.
As everyone has said, easy to do by hand and just blow it out. Is easier than it looks.

Putting in a bigger jet than needed will work. However, only at WOT. When at half throttle or less the bigger jet will have less flow and will work like a jet that is too big. Fluid dynamics, eh.
Is there any advantage to enlarging that 1.5mm hole with his 1.22mm mj?
By far the biggest advantage to enlarging the 1.5mm hole is that, the mpg gets more economical. Does exactly the opposite of what you might guess.
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It doesn't matter what you do to that carb, it is a supply and demand carb meaning it will only work with stock cylinders that have low demand. As soon as you kit. The demands far outweigh what the Si carb can deliver.
If you try to modify float holes etc it will just flood at idle and low Rpm but still starve for fuel at high demands.
Go to a proper side draft carb with a proper fuel reserve which initiates fuel pressure. And will feed whatever demands are required
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Well I never had to drill anything out for my rig Dr177, road 2 and 24mm spaco SI. I went up to a 124 jet no bother at all without drilling then dropped down to 122. Both clearly worked fine as the 122 browned the plug up perfect and the 124 a little rich. All is good across the rev range, maybe a little rich on pilot but no drilling necessary.
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In my experience - with a range of cylinders / exhausts/ inlet and port timings - the SI was a great work horse. The hole was capable of feeding a low 120s jet. Below that, I found no need for the hole drilling. Above that - it starved for fuel.

Jack often recommends jetting with a 120 ac. One advantage of this (I think) is that it keeps you in a lower main jet range.

The flooding issues people have experienced were likely more related to float bowl cover lift. Many of us found this modification un-required in the end.

Certainly for a 187 cc with some advanced port timings, the SI 24/24 was capable of being nicely tuned in and providing good low throttle response and WOT running as well.
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charlieman22 wrote:
In my experience - with a range of cylinders / exhausts/ inlet and port timings - the SI was a great work horse. The hole was capable of feeding a low 120s jet. Below that, I found no need for the hole drilling. Above that - it starved for fuel.

Jack often recommends jetting with a 120 ac. One advantage of this (I think) is that it keeps you in a lower main jet range.

The flooding issues people have experienced were likely more related to float bowl cover lift. Many of us found this modification un-required in the end.

Certainly for a 187 cc with some advanced port timings, the SI 24/24 was capable of being nicely tuned in and providing good low throttle response and WOT running as well.
You say "it was." What carb are you using now?
And what have you done with the collection of those little brass things you accumulated, chasing the SI down the Kitted Rabbit Hole? I have 30 little useless (to me) things Laughing emoticon
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Those my friend are gems.
You need a gem drawer - where they are neatly kept for when you decide to change your exhaust, or your cylinder, or... And there they will be - in all their brass glory.

I run the smart carb - but I am not shy about slapping the SI 24 back on when in need - I have 50 pages of need you are welcome to review if you need it defined...

SI is a workhorse.
Highly tunable for range of changes you might make with time...
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charlieman22 wrote:
Those my friend are gems.
You need a gem drawer - where they are neatly kept for when you decide to change your exhaust, or your cylinder, or... And there they will be - in all their brass glory.

I run the smart carb - but I am not shy about slapping the SI 24 back on when in need - I have 50 pages of need you are welcome to review if you need it defined...

SI is a workhorse.
Highly tunable for range of changes you might make with time...
True! Except for the neatly-kept part. That would take some time.
Actually doubled-down on the SI. I got a 20/20 for city riding. Gonna keep my 24 setup for touring. Past 1/8th throttle it's a dream ride. Just tired of fighting that venturi at barely open throttle.
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Quote:
Just tired of fighting that venturi at barely open throttle.
Don't ride barely open throttle. Problem solved.
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SoCalGuy wrote:
Don't ride barely open throttle. Problem solved.
Laughing emoticon Laughing emoticon Laughing emoticon
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As said more than a few times, SI carbs do work well when more than mild tuned but adjusting them does get complicated when just upping the main jet is not enough. Because they have no needle valve, everything is online all at once and even more bleed over from one jet to another, than regular carbs.
I do try to help. Keeping the main jet low and pilot big usually does the trick. Fast flow tap and drilled out float bowl are not options when beyond mild tune.
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ferriswolf wrote:
You've got a kick ass 225, what main jet are you on? I'm using a rather tame dr177 so trying to establish the optimum main jet you can run on an undrilled Si24 as I'm likely not going to be higher than 124 with adding polinibox. Thx
Sorry Ferris, missed this post.

I'm still working on the jetting for my 225. It's running a bit rich at the moment but I've got a B9ES cold plug just now so got to try a B8ES and adjust mixture a little to see what difference it makes before dropping main jet.

Also still to check squish and fit a CHT before I'm going to do any big runs.
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It's taken me tons of work on the si 24/24 carb and I'm still not quite there yet, but getting closer. Currently on a big main stack. 120/be2/138, but probably going to 120/be3/138 with slightly smaller idle. I was also struggling with low throttle but what just seemed to clear it up was a few things... Tighter squish, leaner atomizer and bigger main and idle. My problem was presenting itself as a low end issue but was really a mid range issue. If a straight diagonal slash Mark "/" plots the perfect jetting across throttle range, what i thought was low end issues only was actually plotted like this "n"... Way too rich middle, and lean top and bottom. I don't fully understand it, but also skimming my head from 1.25mm squish to 0.8mm squish also seems to have made the jetting work cleaner across the throttle range. And i thought i was having fuel supply issues at wot but have the passages drilled and a fast flow tap. Think the squish improvements also helped that.

My point... Takes tons of trial and error, and a few things you wouldn't expect given the one symptom you are seeing. What has really helped me with understanding jetting si carbs is to think of the various jets and stacks all as one giant scale or seesaw. Any changes anywhere along the seesaw throws everything else out of balance, and so you must compensate one change for another. Go lean one end requires equal and opposite change on the matching point on the other end. Keep going back and forth jumping around the range of throttle making tweaks where you see them needed and eventually you get closer across the whole range until the scale is balanced.

Start on the two ends and ignore the middle throttle issues until you know you are close on the ends.. cause middle throttle symptoms can really throw you off on getting the ends correct when you are just ball parking them. But once you get the ends close, then start including atomizer changes as part of your thoughts process based on trying to balance out your decisions regarding the main and idle.

It's no different than trying to balance a pencil on your finger horizontally. Get that fulcrum point wrong, or the weight on either end wrong, and the pencil falls. Get it close but not perfect and you think it's good, but will still fall given slight movement of the hand.
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I also think there are some things you have to accept in the trial and error process. If i can scream about 3/4 to wot all day long on 15 mile journeys and my plug indicating perfect, id rather sacrifice the annoying tiny throttle sputter of being a bit too rich on pilot then being spat off with a seize trying to find the optimum settings for all riding conditions. Then you got the changes in weather to deal with too, when i was riding about over xmas in the minus temperatures, scoot was leaner than usual, now its warmer things will be richer than normal. What is normal? Horses for courses. Im no expert by all means but learned a hell of a lot on modern vespa thanks to the posters in the last few months about the illusive SI carb.

Be good if some programming guru on here could create a starting out base jetting calculation tool based on scooter model, cylinder kit, carb, exhaust etc With a culmination of results from posters to contribute to the tool could be a useful thing for relative novices who are starting out. How difficult might it be? How many times does the question get raised, im bolting on XYZ exhaust on a standard P200 or a p125 etc, what MJ do i need? The tool would be dead useful.
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cazshie wrote:
ferriswolf wrote:
You've got a kick ass 225, what main jet are you on? I'm using a rather tame dr177 so trying to establish the optimum main jet you can run on an undrilled Si24 as I'm likely not going to be higher than 124 with adding polinibox. Thx
Sorry Ferris, missed this post.

I'm still working on the jetting for my 225. It's running a bit rich at the moment but I've got a B9ES cold plug just now so got to try a B8ES and adjust mixture a little to see what difference it makes before dropping main jet.

Also still to check squish and fit a CHT before I'm going to do any big runs.
Ah cheers for this. I couldnt run a B9 plug, my scooter absolutely hated it. Absolutely spluttered like a bastard. The B8 is good, as is my current B7 for nipping around local. Prefer the B7, seems a lot more responsive but probably not a good idea for a long run out.
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I do think using a cht and tach make this process infinitely easier though, as some issues, at least for me, you just can't see or hear. So many times I've got it jetted where i thought it sounded and ran perfectly from feel and sound, but had big issues on temps that would have resulted in seizes at one end of the throttle range or other. And i would have thought it was perfect if not for the gauges telling me something was wrong.
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swiss1939 wrote:
I do think using a cht and tach make this process infinitely easier though, as some issues, at least for me, you just can't see or hear. So many times I've got it jetted where i thought it sounded and ran perfectly from feel and sound, but had big issues on temps that would have resulted in seizes at one end of the throttle range or other. And i would have thought it was perfect if not for the gauges telling me something was wrong.
I think a CHT for a kitted engine should be compulsory

It's amazing how quickly an engine can heat up, especially going up a hill. A CHT will allow you to see this happening and make sure you drop your speed, drop a gear, or even just pull the clutch and give it a few revs.
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You nailed it, ferris.
Quote:
If i can scream about 3/4 to wot all day long on 15 mile journeys and my plug indicating perfect, id rather sacrifice the annoying tiny throttle sputter of being a bit too rich on pilot then being spat off with a seize trying to find the optimum settings for all riding conditions.
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SoCalGuy wrote:
Quote:
Just tired of fighting that venturi at barely open throttle.
Don't ride barely open throttle. Problem solved.
I was. Traffic is back now in LA Crying or Very sad emoticon
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Si=
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cazshie wrote:
swiss1939 wrote:
I do think using a cht and tach make this process infinitely easier though, as some issues, at least for me, you just can't see or hear. So many times I've got it jetted where i thought it sounded and ran perfectly from feel and sound, but had big issues on temps that would have resulted in seizes at one end of the throttle range or other. And i would have thought it was perfect if not for the gauges telling me something was wrong.
I think a CHT for a kitted engine should be compulsory

It's amazing how quickly an engine can heat up, especially going up a hill. A CHT will allow you to see this happening and make sure you drop your speed, drop a gear, or even just pull the clutch and give it a few revs.
Add an exhaust gas temperature meter to the mix, I have been trying one on my P200 as I'm jetting it. Reacts quicker than cht.
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