MP3 400ie, 2009 model: when starting up first time...
Post Reply    Forum -> MP3 Discussion
Author Message
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 ie 400
Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 131
Location: Sydney
Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:37 am quote
Hello All,

It's been a while since I had any issues, I faced this issue in the last few days, when I turn on the scooter, it does not turn on, I press the brake leaver and give the throttle a bit and press the starter button, all I hear is like a click, I do that couple of times (2 or 3) and then the last time it will turn on,,,,

I asked a guy who knows well about mechanics but not a professional and told me that the starter need reconditioning,,,,, FYI, my scooter just passed the 50,100 KM recently, it is well maintained.

So any thoughts about this issue?

Other question, if I need to recondition the starter, is that a simple DIY job? for a person whose has limited knowledge in mechanical aspect, I can change the oil and oil filter and brake pads and spark plug.... so the simple things,,,

thanks a lot to all of you,
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21791
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:39 am quote
battery might have a bad cell. have it load tested.
Ossessionato
BV350, Primavera 150, Yamaha Zuma 125
Joined: 06 Jun 2013
Posts: 3296
Location: The Twin Cities of Minneapolis/Saint Paul, Minnesota
Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:48 am quote
Starter "reconditioning"? I suppose that could mean new brushes in the starter motor, but first I would:
1. Check the battery. It's most likely the battery is getting old and weak.
2. If not the battery, check and replace if necessary the starter relay. It's easier and less expensive than a starter motor overhaul.
Addicted
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 741
Location: tampa
Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:25 am quote
the click means voltage is reaching starter. but there isnt enough current to spin starter.

always confirm battery performance first. if battery is strong change the starter relay next. the relay contains the contacts were the clicking is coming from. the contacts inside may be burned up. the starter itself is least likely the problem and also far more expensive to fix. the relay is around 10$ on ebay
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 ie 400
Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 131
Location: Sydney
Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:30 pm quote
MP3 400ie, 2009 model: when starting up first time...
jerryd wrote:
the click means voltage is reaching starter. but there isnt enough current to spin starter.

always confirm battery performance first. if battery is strong change the starter relay next. the relay contains the contacts were the clicking is coming from. the contacts inside may be burned up. the starter itself is least likely the problem and also far more expensive to fix. the relay is around 10$ on ebay
Hello,

thanks all to whom commented and thank you jerryd,

I have tested the battery some time ago (about a month or 2) and it was fine, no issues, I had it tested at a battery shop with the right testing equipment. So the battery is not the issue.

I think it is the rely which I would buy and replay,

thank you all for all your help,

cheers,
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 ie 400
Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 131
Location: Sydney
Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:39 pm quote
jerryd wrote:
the click means voltage is reaching starter. but there isnt enough current to spin starter.

always confirm battery performance first. if battery is strong change the starter relay next. the relay contains the contacts were the clicking is coming from. the contacts inside may be burned up. the starter itself is least likely the problem and also far more expensive to fix. the relay is around 10$ on ebay
Thanks a lot to all for commenting.
My other question, is where is the starter relay located in the scooter? is there a way or method to test it, like using the screw driver which lights when connected to parts (sorry I don't know the formal name of it)?
I am watching youtube videos and learning on this,

thanks,
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21791
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:09 am quote
Re: MP3 400ie, 2009 model: when starting up first time...
abcdef wrote:
jerryd wrote:
the click means voltage is reaching starter. but there isnt enough current to spin starter.

always confirm battery performance first. if battery is strong change the starter relay next. the relay contains the contacts were the clicking is coming from. the contacts inside may be burned up. the starter itself is least likely the problem and also far more expensive to fix. the relay is around 10$ on ebay
Hello,

thanks all to whom commented and thank you jerryd,

I have tested the battery some time ago (about a month or 2) and it was fine, no issues, I had it tested at a battery shop with the right testing equipment. So the battery is not the issue.

I think it is the rely which I would buy and replay,

thank you all for all your help,

cheers,
still could be the battery, just because you had it tested a few months ago does not mean it has not failed. when they tested it did they do a LOAD test or just a voltage check? how old is the battery? what battery model and specs?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 8718
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:16 am quote
if the battery is over 3 or 4 years old replace it.
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 ie 400
Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 131
Location: Sydney
Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:51 pm quote
Re: MP3 400ie, 2009 model: when starting up first time...
old as dirt wrote:
abcdef wrote:
jerryd wrote:
the click means voltage is reaching starter. but there isnt enough current to spin starter.

always confirm battery performance first. if battery is strong change the starter relay next. the relay contains the contacts were the clicking is coming from. the contacts inside may be burned up. the starter itself is least likely the problem and also far more expensive to fix. the relay is around 10$ on ebay
Hello,

thanks all to whom commented and thank you jerryd,

I have tested the battery some time ago (about a month or 2) and it was fine, no issues, I had it tested at a battery shop with the right testing equipment. So the battery is not the issue.

I think it is the rely which I would buy and replay,

thank you all for all your help,

cheers,
still could be the battery, just because you had it tested a few months ago does not mean it has not failed. when they tested it did they do a LOAD test or just a voltage check? how old is the battery? what battery model and specs?
Thanks, I will get the info later, cheers,
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 ie 400
Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 131
Location: Sydney
Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:52 pm quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
if the battery is over 3 or 4 years old replace it.
The battery is more than 4 years old.

I will do that,
thanks,
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21791
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:09 pm quote
abcdef wrote:
WEB-Tech wrote:
if the battery is over 3 or 4 years old replace it.
The battery is more than 4 years old.

I will do that,
thanks,
4 years old , replace it already.
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 ie 400
Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 131
Location: Sydney
Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:40 pm quote
old as dirt wrote:
abcdef wrote:
WEB-Tech wrote:
if the battery is over 3 or 4 years old replace it.
The battery is more than 4 years old.

I will do that,
thanks,
4 years old , replace it already.
Hello,
thanks for your comment and thanks to all who commented.
I like to write all the issues that I faced, I think that would give a better picture:
- A month or so ago, when I wanted to open the seat using the key, it would not work from the first time, I had to do it couple of times, and sometimes I needed to turn on the scooter and then turn it off so the key would open the seat, note that the battery in the key is ok, no issues as I tried two keys.

- When I noticed if the weather was not cold (above 22 degrees) the scooter turns on without any issues, but the last week it was cold and I faced that problem,

- I tested the battery yesterday at a specialised battery shop and I have the results attached in the pictures.

- When I want to use the high beam, if I flash it, the high light beam works perfect, but when I want to put the high beam on, the light does not work, it delays or until I press it couple of times, then the high light beam works.

Based on comments here and other people I asked, I was given several options for the error:
- The stater relay could be damaged,
- Reconditioning of the starter motor,
- The stator needs replacing as it is not giving the required power to recharge the battery (this is from the battery shop), he stated that the battery does not need to be changed,

So based on the above, I hope it gives a better picture about the issue, so what do you think?





Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21791
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:46 pm quote
in the 2nd pic you see the measured cold cranking amps of 163, out of 200. which is a REDUCED amount. that test could have been just once and done not 3-4 times which will reduce that 163 number even more. Every time you crank on the battery it will lose some CCA until it has a recharge by either running the scooter or putting it on the charger. Also was that 163 after they charged it? if so replace the battery.

I know you want a cheap easy fix but just replace the battery.
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 ie 400
Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 131
Location: Sydney
Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:28 pm quote
old as dirt wrote:
in the 2nd pic you see the measured cold cranking amps of 163, out of 200. which is a REDUCED amount. that test could have been just once and done not 3-4 times which will reduce that 163 number even more. Every time you crank on the battery it will lose some CCA until it has a recharge by either running the scooter or putting it on the charger. Also was that 163 after they charged it? if so replace the battery.

I know you want a cheap easy fix but just replace the battery.
Hi thanks for your help and comment,
I am not looking for a cheap easy fix, I want the right fix. I don't want to change the battery and then I have to change the stator, or starter relay, this is what I am trying to find out. Changing the battery is the cheapest and easiest fix from the above.
If changing the battery, no issues at all, it is the best fix and easiest way (it will not take more than 10 minutes), the others need dismantling and more time without the scooter,
The test was done after I rode the scooter for 10 kilos (first 7 kilos then rested for an hour and then I rode 2 kilos), after I was at the shop, he tested it when the scooter was off, and then I turned the scooter on and did the test, he did not put the battery on charger at all, and the scoote was running life for few minutes only when I turned it on upon his request.
Thanks a lot for your time, I wrote in detail so you can have a clear picture, I am not a mechanic and to give you a clear picture of what happened. thanks again for your help and understanding, cheers,
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 ie 400
Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 131
Location: Sydney
Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:17 pm quote
old as dirt wrote:
in the 2nd pic you see the measured cold cranking amps of 163, out of 200. which is a REDUCED amount. that test could have been just once and done not 3-4 times which will reduce that 163 number even more. Every time you crank on the battery it will lose some CCA until it has a recharge by either running the scooter or putting it on the charger. Also was that 163 after they charged it? if so replace the battery.

I know you want a cheap easy fix but just replace the battery.
Hi,
I went to buy the battery (same shop) the rep there advised me not to change it as he is sure that the stator needs changing otherwise I will damage the new battery, he advised me to write the reason as I mentioned that I wrote on the forum, he wrote to me the reason is as follows: "Low charging voltage 12.4v while running", he explained that can explain more,
I am not a mechanic nor an electrician,
so what is your thoughts?
thanks a lot and cheers,

Last edited by abcdef on Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:41 am; edited 1 time in total
Addicted
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 741
Location: tampa
Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:42 pm quote
with engine running voltage should be 13.8-14.2
with engine stopped a good battery will read 12.8-13.2
he may be correct. stator is failing

my mp3 500 start and ran fine with 120cca battery. 163 may be weak for 200 rated battery but to me it further supports the battery techs diagnosis. its not getting charged properly when running.

Last edited by jerryd on Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:29 am; edited 1 time in total
Hooked
2009 MP3 400, 2004 Honda ST1300
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 330
Location: Sayre, PA
Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:36 am quote
The repair shop should have better explained the results of the test.

12.3 volts would be normal battery voltage with the ignition off.

Engine running or running at increased RPM, (some voltage regulators don't step up until a certain RPM), it should be kicking out closer to 14 volts.

Unless there is something else draining the power?



Hooked
Piaggio MP3 ie 400
Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 131
Location: Sydney
Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:23 am quote
pmatulew wrote:
The repair shop should have better explained the results of the test.

12.3 volts would be normal battery voltage with the ignition off.

Engine running or running at increased RPM, (some voltage regulators don't step up until a certain RPM), it should be kicking out closer to 14 volts.

Unless there is something else draining the power?
Thanks,
I don't have anything else attached only the TomTom GPS unit, but I don't use it or it is not put all the time, I use it when I go to an area that I don't know. It is hard mount on the scooter, so it takes power from the battery, but as mentioned, I don't have it in the mount all the time.
I guess, I will take it to the dealership.
In the past two days the weather was good (above 22 degrees) and the scooter started without any issues, even the high beam worked fine, I just tried it few minutes ago....
it is confusing.....
thanks to all who commented.
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 ie 400
Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 131
Location: Sydney
Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:25 am quote
jerryd wrote:
with engine running voltage should be 13.8-14.2
with engine stopped a good battery will read 12.8-13.2
he may be correct. stator is failing

my mp3 500 start and ran fine with 120cca battery. 163 may be weak for 200 rated battery but to me it further supports the battery techs diagnosis. its not getting charged properly when running.
thanks for your comment, I like to add that the battery shop rep, gave his advice and did not sell me the battery, so I think that comes to his advantage that he is telling the truth, I am taking his advice to fix the problem before buying a new battery otherwise I would damage the new one if I install it now, so once that is fixed, I will return to this shop and buy the battery.
thanks again,
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21791
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:58 am quote
guess your replacing your stator then. good luck.
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 ie 400
Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 131
Location: Sydney
Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:57 pm quote
old as dirt wrote:
guess your replacing your stator then. good luck.
I will have the Piaggio Dealership have a look at it, before I do anything, as mentioned before I want the right fix, if it is the stator, then I will replace it,
thanks all for your comments.
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 ie 400
Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 131
Location: Sydney
Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:16 pm quote
old as dirt wrote:
guess your replacing your stator then. good luck.
Hi all,
finally I took my scooter to Piaggio Dealership and he tested it for me and confirmed it was the battery..... that is it, it was the battery, I bought a new one this morning and change it, it works fine now, but I am waiting for the cold weather to confirm that it was the battery!

thanks all to your comments and help,

Thanks old as dirt for your recommendation it was right, I was not doubting you at all, I went to buy the battery but the guy there told me it is not the battery for the second time, so that is why I confirmed here again.
I appreciate your time and help,
Cheers, and safe riding all.
Hooked
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 370
Location: Belgium
Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:14 am quote
Unless you got a top quality battery such as Yuasa, expect to keep doing the battery shuffle on a regular basis.

$50 motorcycle batteries are just that, just enough to get you through a season or 2 at best.

In other words, you get what you pay for. Also, leaving your bike on a good charger/conditioner/maintainer like Optimate whenever the bike is parked will extend battery life.

And most importantly, after adding the acid pack to the new battery let it rest for 1 hour followed by charging it overnight at 1Amp. Not doing this step will immediately reduce the lifespan of the battery by at least 25%
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 ie 400
Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 131
Location: Sydney
Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:01 am quote
sbaert wrote:
Unless you got a top quality battery such as Yuasa, expect to keep doing the battery shuffle on a regular basis.

$50 motorcycle batteries are just that, just enough to get you through a season or 2 at best.

In other words, you get what you pay for. Also, leaving your bike on a good charger/conditioner/maintainer like Optimate whenever the bike is parked will extend battery life.

And most importantly, after adding the acid pack to the new battery let it rest for 1 hour followed by charging it overnight at 1Amp. Not doing this step will immediately reduce the lifespan of the battery by at least 25%
Hi thank you for your recommendations, what you wrote was not in the instructions, and I asked the seller they stated that the battery needs to be charged or driven for at least 20 minutes, but longer is better, I got SSB Powersport YXT16-SB, it is a known brand in Australia, so I took it, after I put the acid in the battery, I put on charge until it was charged (shown on the charger: "Full") it reached voltage around 14.6, that took nearly an hour. then I put it in the scooter and let it rest for 30 to 40 minutes and then rode it.
I hope that this will not affect the life span of the battery I will keep your recommendation for the next time.
Thanks a lot.
Addicted
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 741
Location: tampa
Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:01 am quote
your problems may return. fresh battery can just hide and delay your problem.

I had a scooter that only charge at 12.4-12.6 when running. it was used like that for a year. battery had to be recharged when not in use. lots of jump starts. headaches. bike would run with the weak charge voltage.

the 400/500 should have 13.8 idling at 1700 rpm.

I would address this better:
"Low charging voltage 12.4v while running" this statement is ringing in my head.

buy a simple dvm. (digital volt meter) discount tool stores sell them for $4. select DC volt 20 on your meter. hold leads to battery with bike running at idle. report voltage here.

just because you went to dealer does not mean they will get it right.
Hooked
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 370
Location: Belgium
Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:00 am quote
Hope the new battery cures the ills on your bike.

However, a fully charged AGM battery should show between 12.6-12.8V after the float charge is gone (a.k.a battery has rested at least a couple of hours).

Also, a brand new battery should show at least the rated capacity printed on the tin. In other words, if it is a 200CCA the load tester should indicate at least that.

Many premium battery include a buffer (around 15-30% extra), so a brand new 200CCA battery should indicate at least in the 230-260CCA area.

If I were you, I would check the 3 phases coming off your stator. If one of those is non-op, your bike will have very similar symptoms as the ones you describe.

In addition, older Piaggio products (pre-2010) came with these awful Ducati voltage regulators that would also play games with your battery and electrical system.
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 ie 400
Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 131
Location: Sydney
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:19 am quote
jerryd wrote:
your problems may return. fresh battery can just hide and delay your problem.

I had a scooter that only charge at 12.4-12.6 when running. it was used like that for a year. battery had to be recharged when not in use. lots of jump starts. headaches. bike would run with the weak charge voltage.

the 400/500 should have 13.8 idling at 1700 rpm.

I would address this better:
"Low charging voltage 12.4v while running" this statement is ringing in my head.

buy a simple dvm. (digital volt meter) discount tool stores sell them for $4. select DC volt 20 on your meter. hold leads to battery with bike running at idle. report voltage here.

just because you went to dealer does not mean they will get it right.
Hi thank you, I am not an electrician nor mechanic but know basics, I will have a friend who can help and I will ask him to do what you recommended.
thanks a lot for your help,
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 ie 400
Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 131
Location: Sydney
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:28 am quote
sbaert wrote:
Hope the new battery cures the ills on your bike.

However, a fully charged AGM battery should show between 12.6-12.8V after the float charge is gone (a.k.a battery has rested at least a couple of hours).

Also, a brand new battery should show at least the rated capacity printed on the tin. In other words, if it is a 200CCA the load tester should indicate at least that.

Many premium battery include a buffer (around 15-30% extra), so a brand new 200CCA battery should indicate at least in the 230-260CCA area.

If I were you, I would check the 3 phases coming off your stator. If one of those is non-op, your bike will have very similar symptoms as the ones you describe.

In addition, older Piaggio products (pre-2010) came with these awful Ducati voltage regulators that would also play games with your battery and electrical system.
Thank you so much for your comment, I appreciate it, I like this site as a person can learn a lot for people like you,
I just want to understand checking the 3 phases of the stator, is that the connect part which has the ports and then use the Digital Volt Meter (DVM) or the screw that you test if there is power in an item?
thanks a lot and as mentioned before, I am not a mechanic nor electrician so i need to put things in very simple English...
cheers,
  DoubleGood Vespa T-Shirts  
Post Reply    Forum -> MP3 Discussion
[ Time: 0.0786s ][ Queries: 27 (0.0378s) ][ Debug on ][ Thing Two ]