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jess wrote:
I've seen it done. On Cannonball. If memory serves, Feb31st himself had to replace the bearing in his swingarm support bracket, but I think that was because he assembled it incorrectly in the first place and it got fried after a day of riding.
Yep! That same year another rider a few days later assembled theirs incorrectly and was in the same situation Day 5.

...all of my Cannonball misfortunes can be traced back to my own stupidity.
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feb31st wrote:
...all of my Cannonball misfortunes can be traced back to my own stupidity.
Hah! No doubt that's true for most of my own misfortunes, too.
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JKJ-FZ6 wrote:
Miguel, the red lead covers up the name! Crying or Very sad emoticon
google the model number.
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old as dirt wrote:
google the model number.
This is as close as I could get. Looks like maybe a newer model?

https://www.amazon.com/Comm-Electric-Ranging-Digital-Multi-Meter/dp/B07DY1G3DY/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&keywords=commercial+electric+multimeter&qid=1622159159&sr=8-7
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Here's the Home Depot link for the meter I showed earlier: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-Manual-Ranging-Digital-Multi-Meter-MS8301A/206177756

$23. I've had it for about 4 or 5 years and recommend it
Miguel
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Thanks everybody! I get my meter tomorrow and have a youtube video to watch to get me up to speed.
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KimPossible wrote:
Thanks everybody! I get my meter tomorrow and have a youtube video to watch to get me up to speed.
Wait, you have to tell us which one you got
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I got the tiny one that you posted. I'll carry it on the Cannonball. And, I'm about to go check if my indicator control unit has its polarity reversed from what the wiring diagram says. I think that is why my signalminder isn't working.
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KimPossible wrote:
I got the tiny one that you posted. I'll carry it on the Cannonball. And, I'm about to go check if my indicator control unit has its polarity reversed from what the wiring diagram says. I think that is why my signalminder isn't working.
Oh, excellent! Good luck on your new diagnostic adventures.
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feb31st wrote:
Yeah, it's hard to balance to two. I'd love to relive a lot of things form 15-20 years ago but thats how it goes. When Mark, Matt, and I got together to rough plan 2018 in 2017 there was some frustration that the modern scooters were still leaving late and arriving at the hotel in time for brunch. Since the vintage rider count would likely continue to drop regardless of distance we had to explore new ways to make it more challenging for modern riders.

Hopefully the event that follows this years revisits the 8 day short course format we had in 2012 and attractive to the vintage. I also miss them.
I think I have the most miles completing every leg on the oldest scooter in a Cannonball. Nobody asked us why we stopped showing up.

The handicap system uses a stock 1979 Vespa P200 as the 100% "standard." I fully understand that the CBR has evolved however once the organizers stated the the 79 P200 standard was to "level out the moderns" it was no longer possible to be compettitive riding vintage.

As the handicap is skewed to the moderns vintage riders feel squeezed out. Also the displacements have been increasing each time a larger cc model Vespa is released in order to allow it to qualify.

I have also received crap about running a 2 stroke because I don't care about the environment.

So why did vintage riders stop running?

Handicap system is based on a vintage scooter but is used to level the moderns.
No reason to build a custom touring CBR motor or scooter so builders are out.
As far as I know no organizer has contacted a vintage vet for opinions
Displacement has increase to include 278 cc, in my opinion this is a maxi scooter
The CBR is supposed to be a test of rider and machine except now all you really need to know is how to buy a new scooter change a tire and a belt and drink beer.

If vintage riders didn't want to make a run Lambretta Club USA would not be considering a Lambretta only coast to coast run.

So yeah vintage riders want to run, we don't want special perks but competitive vintage riders start with high disadvantages and longer tougher days with a manual shift.

That and a field of 160 with maybe 20 riders actually in it to be competitive there will be a ton of breakdowns and crash outs.

I believe the organizers have done the best they can and appreciate all the work. I wish everyone a safe run.
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fledermaus wrote:
I'm guessing the listening will be the most entertaining part. Laughing emoticon
There is no longer the delight of surprise, Gopam has revealed everything to us ...
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ScooterRaton wrote:
So why did vintage riders stop running?

Handicap system is based on a vintage scooter but is used to level the moderns.
No reason to build a custom touring CBR motor or scooter so builders are out.
As far as I know no organizer has contacted a vintage vet for opinions
This particular handicap system was invented by a vintage rider with outstanding vintage credentials. Just sayin.

I don't like the handicap system either, but for different reasons. I much preferred the class system.
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Different people ride the cannonball differently. If you push yourself and scooter, the handicap attempts to put you on par with others that push themselves. Doing this will often break you and/or your scooter. How you ride it will make the experience very different, own that choice. This applies equally to vintage and modern bikes, speed eats scooters!

Classes vs Handicap (assumes the 2014 formula is still in play):
Classes only function if there are enough riders in that class. it's a buzz kill to come first in a class of two where you were kicking ass and the other person was in tourist mode. Better to be 4th with real competition than 1st without it. The handicap was invented to deal with this as well as the switch of the GTS 250 to 300 (278). It was actually developed with an eye to allowing for no CC limit but making anything larger than 300 unworkable from an over all points perspective. Part of the fun of scooters is that you can go as fast as you can go, and still be mostly within the speed limit.

It puts a well built stock P200 on par in performance with a well maintained stock GTS 250. Between those two, if pushed hard from coast to coast the GTS will be faster but need more maintenance, but the score would be about equal. Both will eat a rear tire, the GTS will need a belt mid way through, and both riders will be completely exhausted. The GTS rider will have more time (about an hour) to deal with any issues that do come up. But the barrier to entry is much higher for the P200 since you can't walk into a dealer and buy one. But then you can't do that with a GTS 250, and the 300 is slower and takes a handicap hit. That said, there is good reason to keep the days down to ~350 miles, because things do go wrong and you need time to recover. In 2006 the centralized support/sweep meant that anyone that had a failure was screwed.

That said, the P200 is hardly the pinnacle of performance, and neither is the GTS 300. I had a graph of all models of vespas power output / CC over time and the T5 was the clear winner followed by the GTS 125. A well built modified bike will out perform the handicap, but with that comes higher risk of that "speed eats scooters!" stuff. Well done and with good luck it can and should equal a win. the first year of the handicap (2012) we had a several glitches in the formula. And as cool as it was to see a ninja 250 engine in a Salasbery, the real star performance that year was GlassEye with a coast to coast time of 42hr flat. The bike was a GTS 250 that would top out at 94mph and he nailed every single leg without exception. You don't buy that at any dealer or even by just bolting on parts. That came from prep, execution, maintenance, and a little luck. And the glitch gave him a 4th place if I recall. My smallframe would out perform that, but I've never had a flawless run.

My biased opinion:
Since 2014 (again assuming that formula is still in use, the link on the website is dead) the handicap is very fair on displacement, and age should give a vintage bike a loop hole to trounce any modern bike. The fact that it has not happened is more in line with why we don't see performance like GlassEye every time. The overlap of skill, knowledge, time and resources to pull off that effort is hard to come by. I don't think an all vintage event would change that and it's a copout to blame the structure of an event where the rules were set down with the hope of seeing that trouncing. (did I say that last part out loud?)
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oopsclunkthud wrote:
This applies equally to vintage and modern bikes, speed eats scooters!
Thanks, Patrick, for that detailed assessment. Even though we disagree about handicap vs classes, I do greatly respect the amount of effort you put into creating the system.
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I do really appreciate all the effort that went into developing the HC system and I think it was the right person to develop it.

Personally while I always want to be competitive and do my best my main goal was to finish every leg on a CBR running vintage. I managed to do it in 2016 and I will say it was quite an adventure and I am pretty proud of being able to pull that off.

I don't think any organizers have intentionally tried to exclude anyone. It is the nature of this kind of event to evolve and "new style" replaces "old" style. This is life. If anything the organizers have have been trying to be more inclusive to allow more to participate.

Regarding the CBR I have always said "gimme the date, gimme the route, gimme the rules and gimme time to build." After that the organizers have done their job and it is my decision as to run or not run.

If you are going to run this one it's going to be tough with long saddle time no matter what you are riding, a lot of time with no cell service and all the other things that make the CBR an adventure and not just a vacation!

Wishing a safe run for all!
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I have 2 moderns (250 GTS and a Piaggio Fly 150 with a 190 kit) and a vintage (1980 P200). I reviewed and compared all 3 with a very critical eye to see which would be best for my rookie Cannonball campaign.

The GTS won out for a variety of reasons. Comfort, Speed, and Reliability all favored the GTS. My GTS is pretty much stock, although I'm playing around with some transmission tuning and have upgraded the suspension. I don't know my P200 well enough yet for a Cannonball and the Fly, while fast with the kit, wound up losing out due to comfort and overall speed (particularly hill climbing).

We'll see what the future holds for me, but I'm hoping my rookie campaign goes well.
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CrazyCarl wrote:
My GTS is pretty much stock, although I'm playing around with some transmission tuning and have upgraded the suspension.
I can offer some advice here: don't bring a 1/4 mile bike to Cannonball. The transmission tuning will do little to help, and will possibly (though not certainly) result in an on-the-road failure. Your best bet is a stock setup, and have spares on the bike: spare belt, spare rollers, spare guides, spare variator.

This is the way.
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I'll go further: under the current rules, raw speed won't help you. The handicap makes the GTS woefully uncompetitive from a raw speed standpoint.

Ride consistently, without failures, with as few stops as possible. This is the way.
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jess wrote:
... have spares on the bike: spare belt, spare rollers, spare guides, spare variator ...
spare spark plug boot

edited to add - spare exhaust gasket
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and plan on a tire and belt change at the mid point (in addition to having the spare belt). If you ride slow you can skip this, but this is cannonball.

second the exhaust gasket, they work till they don't.
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ks7877 wrote:
spare spark plug boot
ks7877 wrote:
edited to add - spare exhaust gasket
oopsclunkthud wrote:
and plan on a tire and belt change at the mid point (in addition to having the spare belt). If you ride slow you can skip this, but this is cannonball.
oopsclunkthud wrote:
second the exhaust gasket, they work till they don't.
This is the way.
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Riding WFO all day will wear a groove in your variator and lower your top speed. The spare variator on Day 5 will remedy that.
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The handicap formula is the same as it has always been.

The first segment of 2018 Day 5 was designed to collect some data to see how it was working for that year, https://2018.scootercannonballrun.com/scorecards/segment/D5.S1 - 71 miles, near net zero elevation change, no towns/traffic lights/congestion, all paved road, no ice cream shops for the tourist.

Bonus Checkpoints and the 278cc limit are really the only material changes to the rules or format since the handicap was introduced in 2012. Everything else has been minor legalese or clarifications to existing expectations.

AFAIK, Shawn Johnson "Kraken" is the only vintage rider registered with intentions of showing up in Bar Harbor.
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feb31st wrote:
AFAIK, Shawn Johnson "Kraken" is the only vintage rider registered with intentions of showing up in Bar Harbor.
I have a pretty extensive history of screwing up Cannonballs (2012 & 2016).

Third time's a charm! (But probably not)

Follow the hijinks on IG @teamkraken515
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Team Not Fast Just Furious which started out as an all women team but added GotMojo so we now have a male besides our support driver. Every team member is riding a Piaggio scooter with 2 GTS, 1 GT and 1 BV250.

The team has created a facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/Team.NFJF that we will be posting photos, etc at and links to other rider's videos (several have prep videos already on youtube) and sites though I expect there will be a listing when the official 2021 Scooter Cannonball thread starts.

In the past I've maintained threads here and on ADVRider but I don't know how much I'll be able to post with the really long days this year. It should be an interest year if even half of the people who are still saying they will show up at the start do. There is a record number of small scooters (150cc or less) registered which may make up for the low number of vintage participants this year. No matter what
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Kim,
Great thread, I'm looking forward to meeting fellow riders and putting names to forum handles. I'm about done with prep other than doing a few practice runs, and packing spares, tools, etc in some sort manner where I can find stuff during the Cannonball, see you all in Bar Harbor.
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GRides wrote:
Kim,
Great thread, I'm looking forward to meeting fellow riders and putting names to forum handles. I'm about done with prep other than doing a few practice runs, and packing spares, tools, etc in some sort manner where I can find stuff during the Cannonball, see you all in Bar Harbor.
One thing that may help in the sorting is to bag items used together aka, oil filter/filter wrench. Belt, rollers, glides, holder tool in a different bag. Even just zip locks. That way you don't have to scramble around to assemble what you need. Tool rolls instead of a bag are also common.
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jess wrote:
I'll go further: under the current rules, raw speed won't help you. The handicap makes the GTS woefully uncompetitive from a raw speed standpoint.
Except that it's not just about how fast a scooter can go in a straight line with the posted speed is 35 mph, it's about how fast it can go while climbing long inclines in high altitude, riding into the wind for hours on end, etc. The GTS does these well. A lot of other, newer bikes, are better at this, but don't have the enthusiast base to get the sheer numbers entered that you see with the GTS.

What I think matter most overall in a scooter are power to displacement ratios, that's why the small Honda and Yamaha LC scooters have done well lately, and reliability, also why small Honda and Yamaha scooters have done well.
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Motovista wrote:
What I think matter most overall in a scooter are power to displacement ratios, that's why the small Honda and Yamaha LC scooters have done well lately, and reliability, also why small Honda and Yamaha scooters have done well.
Seems like you're not taking into account the impact of the SCB handicap. The GTS, in stock form, can already exceed the speed limit in the majority of situations. But it is penalized based on displacement and age. Thus, not competitive.
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jess wrote:
I'll go further: under the current rules, raw speed won't help you. The handicap makes the GTS woefully uncompetitive from a raw speed standpoint.
This is true for the newer models

-but-

30% of the top 5 finishers for the past 3 runs have been Piaggio 250 platforms. Older GTSes are still competitive.

250cc has been the sweet spot -- 47%
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GotMojo wrote:
250cc has been the sweet spot -- 47%
Which just goes to show that it's not about absolute top speed.

(Also, I won the 250 class on a GTS 250 in 2008, so... yeah. Different rules, though).
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jess wrote:
Seems like you're not taking into account the impact of the SCB handicap. The GTS, in stock form, can already exceed the speed limit in the majority of situations. But it is penalized based on displacement and age. Thus, not competitive.
Taking into account the impact of the SCB handicap is why I think getting more power out of a smaller, liquid cooled engine is the golden ticket. But there's a lot to be said for eating up the miles quickly, like you can on a GTS, without taxing the bike from the time you get on until the time you park. As a rider, you have an advantage the next day, and the eight after that, compared to everyone on the lower handicap bikes who spent six more hours in the saddle than you did. I agree that the handicap in the 300 series bikes makes it almost impossible to win on one, until someone does, but the older 250s are competitive, to a point. What I looked at with the handicap is that six or so ccs equals about a year and a half. So you can take a scooter like the GT200, which has the same comfort and handling as the GTS, and get 25% more horsepower and about 15 more mph out of it with aftermarket head and cylinder, while only increasing your handicap three points. That seems like a good approach to the handicap, if you can keep it running well for 4500 miles. That last part is the reason 32 horsepower Aprilia SR50s don't do well in an event like this.
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Motovista wrote:
So you can take a scooter like the GT200, which has the same comfort and handling as the GTS, and get 25% more horsepower and about 15 more mph out of it with aftermarket head and cylinder, while only increasing your handicap three points.
Agreed that the GT200 is a great choice for the Cannonball under the current rules, for lots of reasons. I strongly disagree that putting an aftermarket head or cylinder on it is a good idea. And I say that as someone who has, in fact, run Cannonball with an aftermarket head and cylinder.

Here's why: Yeah, sure, you can get another couple of miles per hour out in the open when there's nobody around, but all the extra displacement in the world will mean sweet fuck all when you're moseying through a town with a 30mph speed limit. And you will be moseying through a lot of towns with 30mph speed limits. Every minute you spend staying within acceptable range of the speed limit on a modified bike is, in the end, just a penalty over what you would get on a stock bike. IME, the gains don't make up for the losses. Not even close.

I will say again, from experience: Don't take a quarter-mile bike on Cannonball. It's not about the sprint. Optimizing for the sprint is just stupid when you're running cross-country.
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I seem to have understood that it is important to have strength and pull at low revs rather than high top speed which however increases the wear of the parts.
From what I know in a raid it is important to have a sturdy vehicle, the important thing is not to win but rather to reach the finish line.
Heroes, you are heroes.
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Joined: UTC
Posts: 9026
Location: Watts, Cherokee Nation
UTC quote
jess wrote:
I strongly disagree that putting an aftermarket head or cylinder on it is a good idea. And I say that as someone who has, in fact, run Cannonball with an aftermarket head and cylinder.

And I disagree, as someone who has, in fact, run Cannonball with an aftermarket head and cylinder. The 30 mph towns are separated by vast stretches of spacious skies and amber waves of grain.
@greasy125 avatar
UTC

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: UTC
Posts: 14961
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
 
Sergeant at Arms
@greasy125 avatar
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: UTC
Posts: 14961
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
UTC quote
i thoroughly and entirely love this discussion.

however, it does not move me to ride a T5 for 14 hours a day
@jess avatar
UTC

Petty Tyrant
0:7 And counting
Joined: UTC
Posts: 37329
Location: Bay Area, California
 
Petty Tyrant
@jess avatar
0:7 And counting
Joined: UTC
Posts: 37329
Location: Bay Area, California
UTC quote
Motovista wrote:
And I disagree, as someone who has, in fact, run Cannonball with an aftermarket head and cylinder.
Well, until you win SCB with that formula, the overwhelming evidence will continue to suggest you are mistaken.
Motovista wrote:
The 30 mph towns are separated by vast stretches of spacious skies and amber waves of grain.
Depends on the route.
@oopsclunkthud avatar
UTC

Banned
3:5
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8989
Location: San Francisco
 
Banned
@oopsclunkthud avatar
3:5
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8989
Location: San Francisco
UTC quote
all valid points about what is important, even when the points are in conflict. Lot's of different conditions along the way, and getting the right mix of performance for the actual route is part of the art.

One of the problems with the handicap is that it makes it hard to know where you stand regarding the competition. It removes the "If I'm ahead of you, then I'm winning" feedback. The class system gives this feedback in a much more direct way.

regardless of the selection of scooter, the biggest variable that shows up in the resulting times has more to do with the rider. Every minute not moving is a point lost. All that said, I do think that speed matters, but removing slowness is the key.
@jess avatar
UTC

Petty Tyrant
0:7 And counting
Joined: UTC
Posts: 37329
Location: Bay Area, California
 
Petty Tyrant
@jess avatar
0:7 And counting
Joined: UTC
Posts: 37329
Location: Bay Area, California
UTC quote
oopsclunkthud wrote:
regardless of the selection of scooter, the biggest variable that shows up in the resulting times has more to do with the rider. Every minute not moving is a point lost. All that said, I do think that speed matters, but removing slowness is the key.
Is this a good time to bring up the subject of catheters?
@cdwise avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
GTS 300, Buddy 125
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8870
Location: Knoxville, TN
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@cdwise avatar
GTS 300, Buddy 125
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8870
Location: Knoxville, TN
UTC quote
jess wrote:
Is this a good time to bring up the subject of catheters?
And there he goes.
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