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@vpfalcon avatar
UTC

Addicted
86 T5, 71 Rally 180
Joined: UTC
Posts: 766
Location: Oak Brook, Illinois
 
Addicted
@vpfalcon avatar
86 T5, 71 Rally 180
Joined: UTC
Posts: 766
Location: Oak Brook, Illinois
UTC quote
I have a 1963 GL with a freshly rebuilt P200 motor and sip road 3 exhaust in it. I'm having a hard time getting to run right.
First the symptoms...
It will start right up
The idle is choppy but it will continue to on the stand
Throttle response on the center stand is good.
When I ride the scooter, it accelerates well but it will buck and hesitate when I back off the throttle.
Once this starts, I can pull in the clutch lever but the scooter still wants to cut out and die, unless I go to past half throttle and basically rev the motor.
By the time I get the scooter back home, it won't stay running anymore..
What I've tried so far...
New spaco 24-24 carb, main stack 160-BE3-118, idle jet 55/160
Set the mixture screw 3 turns out, and 2 turns, etc, etc
Set the timing with a timing wheel and gun, scooter fires at 24 degrees before TDC
Spark plug looks black
Tried a different idle jet
Checked compression, it's only 90 psi
Ran w/o air filter
The scooter has a scored rotary pad, but I don't think that's the problem.
Running out of ideas, not sure what to try next.
Video to follow.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
@rowdyc avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
GL, PK, PE200 with hack, Sears Rust Badge
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1346
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
 
Molto Verboso
@rowdyc avatar
GL, PK, PE200 with hack, Sears Rust Badge
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1346
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
UTC quote
From my limited observation, 1st check is the choke cable at the carb. Is it all the way in or is it pulled out a little bit? To me, on the video it seems a lil out but I could be wrong.
It seems the choke arm is pulled out and s/b more toward the float bowl
It seems the choke arm is pulled out and s/b more toward the float bowl
⚠️ Last edited by rowdyc on UTC; edited 1 time
@swiss1939 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
P208, Stella VMC Stelvio 187, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T, 02 Sportster XLH1208
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Posts: 4110
Location: Staten Island, NY
 
Ossessionato
@swiss1939 avatar
P208, Stella VMC Stelvio 187, Stella 150, VNX1T, V9A1T, V9B1T, 02 Sportster XLH1208
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4110
Location: Staten Island, NY
UTC quote
What's your plug look like?

The dying on idle after warm sounds like mine when I'm rich on idle and fouling plugs fast.i also have to slightly hold throttle at lights to keep it from dying when idle is very rich. But your other symptom of bucking when letting off throttle sounds like a lean idle. So check your plug after using on stand and it dies. Also try turning af screw in half a turn to see if it stops the dying at lights.
@charlieman22 avatar
UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4106
Location: california
 
Nedminder
@charlieman22 avatar
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4106
Location: california
UTC quote
I'm with them.
Sounds rich at bottom end to me.
Perhaps start by running the mixture screw in a bit - and see if it moves you in the right direction.

You could also run at low throttle for a few minutes and then pull the plug to see if it looks wet - I suspect it will.
@langolson avatar
UTC

Hooked
Vespa 125 VMA, Vespa SS 180
Joined: UTC
Posts: 213
Location: Minneapolis, MN
 
Hooked
@langolson avatar
Vespa 125 VMA, Vespa SS 180
Joined: UTC
Posts: 213
Location: Minneapolis, MN
UTC quote
You mention 90 psi compression. You might want to check that the head nuts are torqued and that you have a good seal at the head and cylinder base. This has caused me issues like you describe.
@greasy125 avatar
UTC

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: UTC
Posts: 14961
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
 
Sergeant at Arms
@greasy125 avatar
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: UTC
Posts: 14961
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
UTC quote
90 is low and I'm thinking air leak. Or something along those lines.

Also, bump that idle up. At three turns you're nearly into the main.

Double check all connections and make sure you're not sucking air.
@socalguy avatar
UTC

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7155
Location: So Cal
 
bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7155
Location: So Cal
UTC quote
Concur with rowdy & greasy ...

1. Check that choke is closed all the way.

2. Idle sounds too low. Twist it up a couple hundred rpm.
OP
@vpfalcon avatar
UTC

Addicted
86 T5, 71 Rally 180
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Posts: 766
Location: Oak Brook, Illinois
 
Addicted
@vpfalcon avatar
86 T5, 71 Rally 180
Joined: UTC
Posts: 766
Location: Oak Brook, Illinois
UTC quote
I checked the choke cable it's okay, also replaced carb and carb box gaskets, and correctly torqued cylinder head. I want to spray around the cylinder while it's running to check for air leaks but the type of spark plug lead that I have arc all over the place with the cylinder shroud removed. I'm going to see if I can find an NGK spark plug lead today.
The scooter is running even worse today, jerky, idle speeds up then slows down, for no apparent reason.
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4598
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4598
Location: London UK
UTC quote
There seems to be a bit of white smoke when revved. Before running too much check the gear oil level is still there. If the main seal has fell out it will be making a mess of the casing.

As said 90psi is way too low, if it has been measured with a 2 stroke pressure gauge. If its a 4 stroke pressure gauge its probably more than 90psi in reality.
OP
@vpfalcon avatar
UTC

Addicted
86 T5, 71 Rally 180
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Posts: 766
Location: Oak Brook, Illinois
 
Addicted
@vpfalcon avatar
86 T5, 71 Rally 180
Joined: UTC
Posts: 766
Location: Oak Brook, Illinois
UTC quote
Jack221 wrote:
There seems to be a bit of white smoke when revved. Before running too much check the gear oil level is still there. If the main seal has fell out it will be making a mess of the casing.

As said 90psi is way too low, if it has been measured with a 2 stroke pressure gauge. If its a 4 stroke pressure gauge its probably more than 90psi in reality.
Jack. I think you may be onto something, the scooter took 5 ounces of gear oil, and I haven't noticed any oil on the garage floor.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9926
Location: Nashville

69 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9926
Location: Nashville

69 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
That motor sounds all kinds of off. Also, it sounds like like it's misfiring, not just idling poorly, so you could have electrical issues clouding the issue further.
OP
@vpfalcon avatar
UTC

Addicted
86 T5, 71 Rally 180
Joined: UTC
Posts: 766
Location: Oak Brook, Illinois
 
Addicted
@vpfalcon avatar
86 T5, 71 Rally 180
Joined: UTC
Posts: 766
Location: Oak Brook, Illinois
UTC quote
From what I understand, the top end sucks in the gear oil until there's basically none left, and from that point the motor is sucking air, and then it is air leak. I think that's what happened between yesterday and today.
I don't mind pulling out the motor, splitting the cases and installing new seals, I hope the clutch seal is intact and hasn't damaged the cases.
UTC

Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4598
Location: London UK
 
Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX125 and some motorbikes
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4598
Location: London UK
UTC quote
Vpfalcon wrote:
Jack221 wrote:
There seems to be a bit of white smoke when revved. Before running too much check the gear oil level is still there. If the main seal has fell out it will be making a mess of the casing.

As said 90psi is way too low, if it has been measured with a 2 stroke pressure gauge. If its a 4 stroke pressure gauge its probably more than 90psi in reality.
Jack. I think you may be onto something, the scooter took 5 ounces of gear oil, and I haven't noticed any oil on the garage floor.
White smoke and missing oil are big clues. As it's just been rebuilt there are two possibilities, seal fell out ( less bad if full rubber ridged type) or too much gasket sealer, causing to oil sucker issue (fingers crossed it's that).
Be sure to pressure test it after.
OP
@vpfalcon avatar
UTC

Addicted
86 T5, 71 Rally 180
Joined: UTC
Posts: 766
Location: Oak Brook, Illinois
 
Addicted
@vpfalcon avatar
86 T5, 71 Rally 180
Joined: UTC
Posts: 766
Location: Oak Brook, Illinois
UTC quote
I pulled the motor and opened the cases to see what was up with the clutch side seal. The seal looked okay, not only that but when I drained the gear oil, before pulling the motor, to my surprise, nearly 12 ounces came out.
But I did spot a possible problem. The circlip holding the clutch side bearing in place was not seated all the way into the groove. Even when I tried to pop it in.
I know I'm grasping at straws here, but is it possible that actuating the clutch lever was moving that bearing? Causing problems?
In other news, I ordered a new piaggio 200 top end. And I'm planning to pressure test the motor before I install it this time.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
@safis avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 PK125XL Elestart, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4309
Location: Veria, Greece
 
Ossessionato
@safis avatar
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 PK125XL Elestart, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4309
Location: Veria, Greece
UTC quote
That's definitely your problem. Crank moves a bit when clutch is pulled so having the circlip out of place probably moved the bearing along with the seal...
OP
@vpfalcon avatar
UTC

Addicted
86 T5, 71 Rally 180
Joined: UTC
Posts: 766
Location: Oak Brook, Illinois
 
Addicted
@vpfalcon avatar
86 T5, 71 Rally 180
Joined: UTC
Posts: 766
Location: Oak Brook, Illinois
UTC quote
Back to work on the GL after a few weeks working on plumbing and garden stuff. I decided to install a new crank, it's a Jasil. I noticed when took a close look at the old crank that the flyside bearing race was installed flush onto the crank, instead of the recommended .5 mm. I'm not sure if that affected how the motor ran.
So I've got a new piaggio 200 top end, new crank, new clutch side bearing and seal. Going to torque the case bolts and work on installing the cylinder
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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