Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:05 am

Addicted
Bo - midnight blue GT200 R.I.P. Tethys - 300 GTS Titanium
Joined: 22 Jul 2008
Posts: 598
Location: Bowie, MD
 
Addicted
Bo - midnight blue GT200 R.I.P. Tethys - 300 GTS Titanium
Joined: 22 Jul 2008
Posts: 598
Location: Bowie, MD
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:05 am linkquote
Why are there different head/tool types on screws?
I understand the different functionalities of the different thread size and pitch. So machine screws versus wood screws make sense. I understand the function of security screws as well.

But, once you move past slotted, what are the different functionalities of philips versus hex versus torx versus pozdrive...

I don't see the purpose or any different functionalities. My spouse thinks its just to make us buy more tools.

I'm tempted to replace all my Vespa screws with the same type - it drives me fairly nuts that they are of several different head types. If I did so, would one type be better than the others? Why?

And I'll beat you all to the punch - yep I've got a screw loose over this.
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:18 am

Molto Verboso
GTS 300ie Touring, AKA Gigi
Joined: 26 Mar 2018
Posts: 1316
Location: Phoenix, AZ.
 
Molto Verboso
GTS 300ie Touring, AKA Gigi
Joined: 26 Mar 2018
Posts: 1316
Location: Phoenix, AZ.
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:18 am linkquote
KimPossible wrote:
Why are there different head/tool types on screws?

And I'll beat you all to the punch - yep I've got a screw loose over this.


Therein lies the question.

Maybe some engineering-type will wander by and solve this conundrum.
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:26 am

Hooked
GTV300
Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 225
Location: New Mexico
 
Hooked
GTV300
Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 225
Location: New Mexico
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:26 am linkquote
It is a frustrating thing - particularly those phillips head screws that are all a little different, so you can use the screwdriver you have on hand, but it will not work so well and will slowly destroy the head of the screw.

And does anyone else notice, that if you need a phillips head screwdriver, you can find a dozen flat head screwdrivers in various toolboxes and drawers around the house but no phillips head screwdrivers and vice versa?

For the Vespa, I end up using the tool kit in the glove box quite a bit. It seems to be immune to the malevolent switching around of tools in the rest of my life.
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:32 am

Molto Verboso
portofino green GTV 300
Joined: 29 Aug 2010
Posts: 1277
Location: w.ma. Northampton
 
Molto Verboso
portofino green GTV 300
Joined: 29 Aug 2010
Posts: 1277
Location: w.ma. Northampton
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:32 am linkquote
If I had a choice I'd replace all with Torx, just one opinion among many I'm sure.
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:41 am

Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 30937
Location: Bay Area, California
 
Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 30937
Location: Bay Area, California
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:41 am linkquote
This has a lot to do with two separate forces. The first is engineering: the need to develop a fastener with particular characteristics, usually related to how much torque can be applied from the driver to the fastener. Slotted is one of the earliest forms but suffers from several problems. The torque characteristics are not very good, and the driver doesn't self-center on the fastener. Phillips self-centers but actually cams-out to limit the amount of torque that can be applied. Other fasteners attempt (usually) to increase the amount of torque that can be applied. The Torx fastener is in this latter category.

The other force is related to intellectual property. There have been some fasteners invented that have been encumbered with patents, and that has shaped their use. For instance, there's a well-known story about the supposedly-superior Robertson Drive screw (aka "square drive"), and Henry Ford's failure to obtain an exclusive license for it gave rise to the Phillips screw. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._L._Robertson

This story has been repeated in various forms over the years, with different fasteners coming and going based on their usefulness and limited by patents that may be attached.

Last edited by jess on Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:56 am; edited 1 time in total
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:54 am

Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 30937
Location: Bay Area, California
 
Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 30937
Location: Bay Area, California
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:54 am linkquote
I personally do prefer Torx fasteners, even though they have been encumbered by patents in the past. I especially like their generic name: hexalobular internal. Has a nice ring to it, yeah?
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:56 am

Molto Verboso
'07 GTS 250 - sold
Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 1092
Location: England
 
Molto Verboso
'07 GTS 250 - sold
Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 1092
Location: England
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:56 am linkquote
KimPossible wrote:
And I'll beat you all to the punch - yep I've got a screw loose over this.
for a deep-dive on the subject, check out the (very long) entry on wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives

there are more types than you ever feared
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:22 am

Addicted
1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T / 2009 Aprilia Sportcity One 50
Joined: 31 Jul 2014
Posts: 784
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
 
Addicted
1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T / 2009 Aprilia Sportcity One 50
Joined: 31 Jul 2014
Posts: 784
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:22 am linkquote
jess wrote:
I personally do prefer Torx fasteners, even though they have been encumbered by patents in the past. I especially like their generic name: hexalobular internal. Has a nice ring to it, yeah?
Yes, those are great until you are working on your GFís Lumina and GM has decided to add a post in the middle of the socket so none of your Torx bits fit and you have a big blow-up with her over it because itís hot out, she needs her car and you have to explain why you have to drive to the auto parts store AGAIN and now sheís going to be late and itís all your fault for starting on it now Ö

Or so Iíve heard.
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:27 am

Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 30937
Location: Bay Area, California
 
Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 30937
Location: Bay Area, California
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:27 am linkquote
seamus26 wrote:
Yes, those are great until you are working on your GFís Lumina and GM has decided to add a post in the middle of the socket so none of your Torx bits fit and you have a big blow-up with her over it because itís hot out, she needs her car and you have to explain why you have to drive to the auto parts store AGAIN and now sheís going to be late and itís all your fault for starting on it now Ö
That would be Security Torx. And one should always have a set of those on hand. Always.
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:42 am

Molto Verboso
'07 GTS 250 - sold
Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 1092
Location: England
 
Molto Verboso
'07 GTS 250 - sold
Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 1092
Location: England
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:42 am linkquote
I mean, I've no idea what most of these are called but they make neat little graphics.



Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:50 am

Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 30937
Location: Bay Area, California
 
Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 30937
Location: Bay Area, California
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:50 am linkquote
Iím ready for most of them.





Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:19 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 6158
Location: Latina (Italy)
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 6158
Location: Latina (Italy)
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:19 am linkquote
The splendid screws of a not very illustrious man.
By saying "Brugola", half of the interlocutors do not know what you are talking about, a small part understand, the majority of the others are partially wrong ...

... in the sense that it confuses the essence, that is the overall object indicated by the term, with one of the tools, fundamental but subsidiary. It is serious. In a film by Aldo, Giovanni and Giacomo (Three men and one leg), a car with the advertising sign "Il Paradiso (Heaven) della Brugola" also appears, a remarkable mockery of the more or less subliminal advertisements scattered in many films. But it is serious, above all, because "Brugola" is a decisive step in Italy's transition from an archaic society to an industrial society. It is the only case in which a national proper name becomes a common term to indicate a technically produced object. What is said, in rhetorical terms, is antonomasia. What, in today's universal language, only happens in other rare cases, almost all unrelated to Italy: the Bic pen, the Gillette razor, the Diesel engine (perhaps, the only exception is Martini, which, in the US, counts as " commodity ").

We are talking about screws. Here, the ground - despite what it seems - is slippery. Meanwhile, because there are so many screws. Not only the screwdriver slotted screw ... there are also the cross screw (also called "Philips"), the Vte, that is hexagonal head screw, the Vtcse, or hexagonal socket head screw, the Polydrive, because it has hollow head with the system of the same name, "headless with hollow" screws of various shapes, called "grains" and, again, many others, identified on the basis of the application, where the so-called "critical screws for internal combustion engine" also called "Critical fasteners".

But we have gone too far. We must go back to when, in 1926, the OEB, Officine Egidio Brugola, was born in Lissone - full Brianza. Egidio's mother has a small shop. In an area where everyone is focused on carpentry, he soon demonstrates a great passion for mechanics. He gets a job at Cagnola, a local company that produces springs and washers. He leaves her (along with what will become his "head of production") to set up his own business, opening a small hardware shop in via Cesare Battisti. He also produces springs and washers (those used to fix the rails to the sleepers), at the beginning. But in a short time he dedicated himself to something else, he specialized, in fact, in screws. In a particular type of screwe, indeed. The one that will be associated with him enough to take his name. It is the cylindrical head with hexagon socket, which is fixed with a male key of the corresponding shape. Marco Malvaldi makes an effective description of its merits in a short story that appeared in The Patent Philosophy: "First of all, it allows you to insert the key inside parts that are difficult to reach with a normal screwdriver, because little space is required above the screw to act. In the assembly of engines, and in any case of mechanical gears, this is fundamental. But above all the leverage that is used is long. Having a long lever to act on, the torque of the force that is applied is much greater than that of a normal screwdriver. The longer you have, the better ... And therefore, by applying more force, it is also easier for the screw to break or get damaged! ... Unless the screw is made more elastic "(the final clarification will be clear later ...). This system is not an invention of Egidio. What will be called "Brugola" was patented in 1910 by an American, a certain Allen.
(Attila's note: the translator automatically translates "brugola" into "Allen", i think it's a set to be a little nationalist ... )

His extra touch is another: "My grandfather began to market screws in large series, inventing a shape of the screw that guaranteed greater elasticity", says the grandson today at the head of the company, Egidio also called by all Jody. It is the hexagonal socket head screw, but ďwith twistĒ, an elastic element obtained during threading with specific tools, thus solving the fragility problem mentioned above by Malvaldi. Which here is almost an epic: "Mr. Brugola, more simply, was satisfied with geometry. Thanks to a more abstract field, closer to the world of ideas, than the crude chemistry of materials, Mr. well look at a single stencil Ľ. Series production begins in 1927, with various applications. The idea, however, was defended with a patent only at the end of 1945. Hence the progressive identification with the name of the manufacturer.

Many things have happened in the meantime. The OEB is growing. A second factory arrives by taking over the Ponte Lambro weaving mill, still today the seat of the OEB1 factory. And it has to go through the tough period of sanctions and war. "In order to have the material we needed for production, we had to fill in the statins in order to show that we did not hide surplus or surpluses, even with the percentage of" scrap ", that is what is lost during processing", recalls Luigina Girardi, December 1, 1940, who was secretary for Egidio and then for his son Giannantonio. The conflict forces reconversion to supply the war industry. And it causes a dramatic episode for the company, which now has over two hundred employees. In September 1943, the nazis killed three of them. The dynamics are still unclear. One version has no political implications. Men would be shot for being caught red-handed stealing something. According to another reconstruction - the one shared by Luigina - it would be a real episode of resistance. The three are part of a partisan nucleus and shot at a Germanic patrol, killing a couple of soldiers. The retaliation, however, leaves no way out. The Germans capture them in the factory in via Battisti. Egidio is also involved. Here too the reconstructions are confused. It seems that you risk being shot. Instead, he gets along. Someone gets in the way: perhaps the cardinal of Milan, Schuster, perhaps two employees of the company, two brothers notoriously of fascist faith who guarantee for him.

Reconstruction and economic recovery mark the take-off of the EPO. The patent for the "twisting" arrives (although a legal aftermath with the Germans of Bauer will be thirty years long). Egidio does not rest on his laurels: ęhe had a nickname: they called himď genius Ē. He was able to put even the most experienced engineers in trouble. My father told me that, after the war, he happened to accompany him, on Sunday mornings, to the meetings of a working group made up of technicians and professors, in Monza or at the Milanese Polytechnic: he had a fifth grade diploma but, when he intervened, they all hung on his lips, Ēsays Jody. In 1958, Brugola were the screws that Ettore Sottsass decided to use for one of the first computers built in the world: the ELEA 9002.

In 1959, however, the founder disappeared. Suddenly, not yet fifty-eight: a heart attack, the first time he goes on vacation to Elba. "He often asked me: how does this company end up if I die?" Luigina recalls. The blow is strong but not lethal. The leadership of the OEB falls to his wife Emmy, until 1964 when the managerial responsibility passes to his son Giannantonio, born in 1942, who rationalizes and concentrates the production. The reputation of the company now far exceeds national borders. The screws for the first IBM typewriters come from Lissone. Giannantonio takes care of the image: "My father was passionate about wild animals: tigers, lions, panthers, which in fact appear regularly in advertising next to the company logo," Jody emphasizes. But, above all, he makes precise choices.

High quality steels. Since the end of the 1980s, OEB has been dedicated only to the automotive sector: ęIn other words, we are abandoning the standard normalized bolts to move on to the special one with high quality alloy steelsĽ. And, in 1993, a new, substantial, patent arrives: the Polydrive, which allows the use of a dual system of keys and further reduces wear on the clamping tool. Regarding Polydrive, satisfaction and hassle will come from Germany. The first come from Volkswagen, which embraces an OEB proposal - the "Zero Defect" guarantee - and has made the company, since 1993, the sole supplier of fixing screws for the cylinder head. The latter arise from a new dispute, this time with the German company Ribe, for the world patent of Polydrive: it will take another ten years, then ours will win. Other major car brands are added to the OEB carnet (the 1996 Ford order to develop all the bolts for a new engine) which, today, is the world leader in head screws (those that fix it to the engine block), as well as between the major world producers of vitibiella (the most problematic, those on which the force of the piston is discharged when the revolutions increase). Eliminating wire phosphating, solving the problem of hydrogen embrittlement, progressing on the path of downsizing (i.e. smaller and smaller screws for smaller and smaller engines): these are the challenges that Jody Brugola - at the helm of the company since 2013 - finds himself front. Meanwhile, there was also a lot of concern for another aspect: bringing the distribution network closer to customers, in order to guarantee rapid delivery times. This is how logistics branches were born in various countries around the world. Last year, a manufacturing plant was opened in Michigan. Almost a ransom. There had already been an attempt to land in the US, in the mid-1980s, and it had failed: "Now let's close the missing link. It was my father's last dream who saw our future there, "comments Jody.

http://www.brugola.com/it/press/le-splendide-viti-di-un-uomo-poco-illustre
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:54 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
GTS 300ABS, Buddy 125, Buddy Kick 125
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 11771
Location: Oregon City, OR
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
GTS 300ABS, Buddy 125, Buddy Kick 125
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 11771
Location: Oregon City, OR
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:54 am linkquote
Well, back here in the world we live in - we can't really expect someone else to solve this irritating problem for us. Like Jess, I have acquired a set of drive tips that handle most anything I am likely to encounter. I despise slotted screw heads most of all, but they are obviously going to remain in use. I am mostly confronted with Phillips, hex, and Torx heads these days (Torx more all the time). And then, I own a Pleasureway camper van which uses Robertson head screws .
Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:38 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS 2013 BV 350
Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 9897
Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS 2013 BV 350
Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 9897
Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:38 am linkquote
jess wrote:
Iím ready for most of them.
Whoa! That's loaded for bear!
Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:39 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 6158
Location: Latina (Italy)
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 6158
Location: Latina (Italy)
Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:39 am linkquote
Dooglas wrote:
Well, back here in the world we live in - we can't really expect someone else to solve this irritating problem for us. Like Jess, I have acquired a set of drive tips that handle most anything I am likely to encounter. I despise slotted screw heads most of all, but they are obviously going to remain in use. I am mostly confronted with Phillips, hex, and Torx heads these days (Torx more all the time). And then, I own a Pleasureway camper van which uses Robertson head screws .
I'll give you an example ...
The Italian Motorcycle Federation, which also oversees the correct homologation of the restoration of vintage motorcycles and scooters, has allowed (optionally) the use of (Allen) brugola screws instead of cut head screws, in points where greater force is required. for the sealing of the pieces (such as external motor casings) because when tightening the original slotted screws they broke on the head or because with oxidation they can get stuck and the head of the screw subjected to excessive stress for the removal of the screw broke for the same reason.
Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:29 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 7326

 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 7326

Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:29 am linkquote
KimPossible wrote:
I'm tempted to replace all my Vespa screws with the same type - it drives me fairly nuts that they are of several different head types.
I actually did this, to a certain extent.

When I got my old Helix, I stripped off all the bodywork. It turned out that only about half the fasteners were there to begin with. While I couldn't replace everything with the same type, I did try to minimize the variations whenever I could. I bought a bunch of extras and replaced fasteners elsewhere as I went along, whenever I worked on some other bit of the bike, too. (It was old enough, it was probably a good idea to do that, anyway.)

So yeah... you just gotta buy an old plastic beater bike to get a head start.
Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:50 am

Ossessionato
2014 Commuter BV350(45,000)/2015 Scoot Life BV350(11,000)/2010 El Diablito SH150i(30,000) 2010 SH150i project scoot.
Joined: 27 Dec 2013
Posts: 2593
Location: Orange Park Florida
 
Ossessionato
2014 Commuter BV350(45,000)/2015 Scoot Life BV350(11,000)/2010 El Diablito SH150i(30,000) 2010 SH150i project scoot.
Joined: 27 Dec 2013
Posts: 2593
Location: Orange Park Florida
Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:50 am linkquote
I painted both of my BV's. There are 4 shoulder bolts with Phillips heads holding the front fender on. A Phillips head on a shoulder bolt 5 of the 8 bolts(both bikes) had to have the heads drilled off because I didn't have a impact driver but that's no guarantee. Obviously I replaced them with Torx.
Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:51 pm

Addicted
Bo - midnight blue GT200 R.I.P. Tethys - 300 GTS Titanium
Joined: 22 Jul 2008
Posts: 598
Location: Bowie, MD
 
Addicted
Bo - midnight blue GT200 R.I.P. Tethys - 300 GTS Titanium
Joined: 22 Jul 2008
Posts: 598
Location: Bowie, MD
Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:51 pm linkquote
So now to pick one. That wikipedia article was really helpful! All of the responses on this thread have been helpful.

I've got almost all the bit types - not all the different security styles, but a lot of those as well. Most of those are just bits with various drivers instead of dedicated all-one-piece drivers. I agree it is getting easier to find even the obscure ones. But, whatever I pick I don't have to go out and invest in a bunch of new tools. (kind of a bummer)

For a while I had an awesome ratcheting bit driver that had over 150 bits. Plus the driver had a fold-over function that helped me apply more torque. Went missing after one of my father-in-laws visits. I've always been suspicious.

It's hard for me to both push in and turn with enough force, so I end up mangling screws way too often. So one of the styles that 'resist cam-out' is required. But I also want screws available in all sizes easily available So I'm thinking either Hex or Torx. Torx means you don't have to mess with SAE versus Metric. I think hex has a fuller range of sizes. From the fastenal site it looks like there is a wider variety of types of screws with hex heads as well.

So... I think I'll be switching everything to hex. (on the scooter that is, I know I can't change the world.)
Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:27 pm

Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 30937
Location: Bay Area, California
 
Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 30937
Location: Bay Area, California
Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:27 pm linkquote
KimPossible wrote:
So... I think I'll be switching everything to hex. (on the scooter that is, I know I can't change the world.)
Hex is not a bad choice, certainly better than Phillips. The smaller sizes do tend to strip, though.
Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:53 pm

Hooked
'08 Vespa LX80, '07 LX50
Joined: 30 Oct 2020
Posts: 211
Location: Honolulu
 
Hooked
'08 Vespa LX80, '07 LX50
Joined: 30 Oct 2020
Posts: 211
Location: Honolulu
Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:53 pm linkquote
Funny that I am reading of frustration with Vespa fastener choices. Mine are over 10 years old so maybe things have changed but I love working on the Vespas. It seems like if you are in an area working all the bolts are the same size #10 or #8! Easy peazy. One phillips, one size hex 5mm(?) and maybe a wrench or two and your there!

One thing that you may consider is something like this.

https://www.griotsgarage.com/product/113+piece+tamper+proof+bit+set.do?sortby=ourPicks&from=fn

I got this exact same set about 25 years ago and it is a go to when I get called to action!
It doesn't matter what the job is, I take this with me. When my kids go out into the world I will give them each this same set...it's that good!
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:22 pm

Ossessionato
GTS300 Super (Heinz) GTS250 Super (Bulger)
Joined: 16 Jan 2010
Posts: 3844
Location: Tempe, AZ
 
Ossessionato
GTS300 Super (Heinz) GTS250 Super (Bulger)
Joined: 16 Jan 2010
Posts: 3844
Location: Tempe, AZ
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:22 pm linkquote
In the late '90s I started an IT job, mostly all desktops at the time. My predecessor had replaced all the screws to open the desktop with round screws that were just slightly not round. Pain in the ass. Worst fastener ever.
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:55 pm

Member
2001 ET 4 2007 LX 150 2014 GTS 300 Super Sport
Joined: 11 May 2011
Posts: 43
Location: Riverside,Ca
 
Member
2001 ET 4 2007 LX 150 2014 GTS 300 Super Sport
Joined: 11 May 2011
Posts: 43
Location: Riverside,Ca
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:55 pm linkquote
I was an industrial education/technology teacher, think automotive, metalworking, woodworking, for 39 years! One of the first things that I taught in all of my classes was the tools related to each area of study. One of the hardest concepts to correct was the name of the screwdriver that fits into a slotted screw! It IS a standard screwdriver, NOT a flathead screwdriver! I would tell my students that that is a tribe of Indians or a type of automotive or motorcycle engine!
Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:26 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 6158
Location: Latina (Italy)
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 6158
Location: Latina (Italy)
Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:26 am linkquote
keenkut wrote:
I was an industrial education/technology teacher, think automotive, metalworking, woodworking, for 39 years! One of the first things that I taught in all of my classes was the tools related to each area of study. One of the hardest concepts to correct was the name of the screwdriver that fits into a slotted screw! It IS a standard screwdriver, NOT a flathead screwdriver! I would tell my students that that is a tribe of Indians or a type of automotive or motorcycle engine!
Ehi! I have a similar specialization.
I am an industrial expert (abbreviated Per. Ind.), In Italian law, is a professional operating, within the scope of his / her skills and specializations, in the sectors of industrial engineering, civil engineering and the tertiary sector.

The profession of industrial expert is regulated by law and, following the entry into force of Law 89/16, the title of industrial expert belongs to those who have obtained the degree referred to in Article 55, paragraph 1, of the referred to in Presidential Decree 328/2001.

The professional order is organized into provincial orders that report to the national council, based in Rome. In Europe, the official name in English is "Industrial Engineer".
A professional qualification diploma issued after passing the state exam.
The term "perito" derives from the Latin peritus, meaning expert, skilled and indicates who has a practical knowledge of certain subjects.
The term "industrial" derives from Hindustria, of Latin derivation, which originally meant "industriousness, inventiveness", and then went on to indicate the system responsible for the production of material goods and services on a large scale, and is characterized by generalized use of machines.
Training
The qualification, pursuant to law 89/2016, is obtained upon completion of a three-year degree course.
The preparation of the industrial expert in the field of engineering subjects can be associated with a specialization in a particular sector of industry. The industrial expert, within the scope of his / her competences, can perform functions of coordination, directives, executive, design, testing and other functions following subsequent qualifications obtained as required by law.
I am an Industrial Technician with a specialization in Mechanics,
able to have notions in order to be able to face the specific problems of the mechanical sector in systemic terms.
Therefore capable of:
read and interpret the functional diagrams and drawings of industrial plants;
proportion the mechanical parts;
choose the machines, plants and equipment;
use IT tools for design, processing, handling;
use information technology to participate in the management and control of the industrial process
be constantly updated with regard to new technologies and new management of industrial quality.
I am also specialized in mechanical industrial design and in the wood sector, programming on CAD / CAM CNC platforms
(AutoCAD, Inventor, Catiŗ, Dassault System, Rhino and others) and I also obtained the patent of aeronautical mechanic on piston engines.
Then it was too stressful and I started to be a farmer ...
I am now retired.
Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:16 am

Addicted
Bo - midnight blue GT200 R.I.P. Tethys - 300 GTS Titanium
Joined: 22 Jul 2008
Posts: 598
Location: Bowie, MD
 
Addicted
Bo - midnight blue GT200 R.I.P. Tethys - 300 GTS Titanium
Joined: 22 Jul 2008
Posts: 598
Location: Bowie, MD
Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:16 am linkquote
jess wrote:
Hex is not a bad choice, certainly better than Phillips. The smaller sizes do tend to strip, though.
Is Torx more resistant to stripping?
Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:30 am

Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 30937
Location: Bay Area, California
 
Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 30937
Location: Bay Area, California
Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:30 am linkquote
KimPossible wrote:
Is Torx more resistant to stripping?
Just to be clear: I'm talking here about the driver stripping out the head of the fastener, not about threads.

Generally, yes. Torx is less prone to the driver stripping the fastener. There are always variations in fastener heads, and socket-head hex cap screws in larger sizes (and especially with deeper recesses) can be quite good. There are so many variables, though: material, socket depth, size, driver tolerance, corrosion, and on and on.

But all that said, Torx is designed to increase how much torque you can apply to a fastener before it strips or cams-out. That is exactly what it was designed to do. BMW motorcycles seem to use Torx almost exclusively (even using the not-often-seen eTorx in place of standard bolts). It is a generally excellent choice and these days has good availability of parts. You probably won't find a lot of it at Home Depot, but online, Torx fasteners are plentiful.

The one downside of Torx is that the driver-to-fastener interface is so good that you can over-torque a fastener, at which point the threads become the weak point. This is the exact opposite of Phillips, which is designed to reduce maximum torque, ostensibly to protect the threads during installation by sloppy factory line workers.

So don't over-tighten.

Last edited by jess on Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:35 am; edited 3 times in total
Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:33 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 6158
Location: Latina (Italy)
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 6158
Location: Latina (Italy)
Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:33 am linkquote
KimPossible wrote:
Is Torx more resistant to stripping?
Yes, surely (always if I understand what "stripping" is ...meaning the breaking of the stem )
Jess says it right and to make sure you don't cause any damage, use a "torque wrench".
Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:47 am

MV Santa
GTS250, 1960 VBA, 1975 VBC, 1980 P200E cutdown
Joined: 04 May 2010
Posts: 4487
Location: Sedgwick, Kansas
 
MV Santa
GTS250, 1960 VBA, 1975 VBC, 1980 P200E cutdown
Joined: 04 May 2010
Posts: 4487
Location: Sedgwick, Kansas
Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:47 am linkquote
Attila wrote:
Yes, surely (always if I understand what "stripping" is ...meaning the breaking of the stem )
Jess says it right and to make sure you don't cause any damage, use a "torque wrench".
No. Stripping usually means the damaging of the threads on the bolt or screw or the internal threads in the part. It can also refer to the damaging of the head so that the bit can no longer grip.

I have never heard breaking of the stem called stripping.
Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:49 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 6158
Location: Latina (Italy)
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 6158
Location: Latina (Italy)
Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:49 am linkquote
vintage red matthew wrote:
No. Stripping usually means the damaging of the threads on the bolt or screw or the internal threads in the part. It can also refer to the damaging of the head so that the bit can no longer grip.

I have never heard breaking of the stem called stripping.
Oh...thank you...
Technical english and its "grammatical nuances" have never been my strong point.
Honestly i prefer the "brugola screw" (Allen call it you).
Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:00 am

Addicted
1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T / 2009 Aprilia Sportcity One 50
Joined: 31 Jul 2014
Posts: 784
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
 
Addicted
1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T / 2009 Aprilia Sportcity One 50
Joined: 31 Jul 2014
Posts: 784
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:00 am linkquote
jess wrote:
The one downside of Torx is that the driver-to-fastener interface is so good that you can over-torque a fastener, at which point the threads become the weak point. This is the exact opposite of Phillips, which is designed to reduce maximum torque, ostensibly to protect the threads during installation by sloppy factory line workers.

So don't over-tighten.
Or to turn the ten minute project of replacing a couple sets of blinds in your garage into an hour long ordeal because the cheap wood screws that have been holding them in place for the last 25 years are not only four inches long, but the Phillips heads donít seem to match any of the fifteen screwdrivers youíve managed to locate leading to them stripping out so you have to drill the heads off to remove the old brackets, all the while hoping that you die before the new blinds wear out so you donít have to go through this again.

Or so Iíve heard.
Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:03 am

Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 30937
Location: Bay Area, California
 
Petty Tyrant
GTS250 GTS300 MP3 500
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 30937
Location: Bay Area, California
Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:03 am linkquote
seamus26 wrote:
Or to turn the ten minute project of replacing a couple sets of blinds in your garage into an hour long ordeal because the cheap wood screws that have been holding them in place for the last 25 years are not only four inches long, but the Phillips heads donít seem to match any of the fifteen screwdrivers youíve managed to locate leading to them stripping out so you have to drill the heads off to remove the old brackets, all the while hoping that you die before the new blinds wear out so you donít have to go through this again..


Your Adventures in DIY are entertaining, if nothing else.
Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:10 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 6158
Location: Latina (Italy)
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 6158
Location: Latina (Italy)
Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:10 am linkquote
... another modernity victim.
Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:36 am

Addicted
1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T / 2009 Aprilia Sportcity One 50
Joined: 31 Jul 2014
Posts: 784
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
 
Addicted
1979 P200E (sold) / ZNEN Amore 150 / Genuine Buddy 170i / Genuine Stella 4T / 2009 Aprilia Sportcity One 50
Joined: 31 Jul 2014
Posts: 784
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:36 am linkquote
jess wrote:


Your Adventures in DIY are entertaining, if nothing else.
I long ago accepted the fact that my role in life was Comic Relief. And Iím ok with that.
Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:20 am

Grumpy Biker
1980 Vespa P200e (sold), 2002 Vespa ET4 (sold), 1949 Harley-Davidson FL
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 4809
Location: Chandler, Arizona, USA
 
Grumpy Biker
1980 Vespa P200e (sold), 2002 Vespa ET4 (sold), 1949 Harley-Davidson FL
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 4809
Location: Chandler, Arizona, USA
Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:20 am linkquote
jess wrote:
Iím ready for most of them.
I have a similar collection of "bits" for most of the various types of fasteners. It's so nice that drivers for these interchangeable bits have become so popular (and standardized). We now have several "handles" of various sizes, shapes, and lengths that will accept any number of the bits on the end. Saves a ton of space in the tool cabinet drawers.

-Craig
Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:24 pm

Addicted
GTS 300ie Touring 2013 - Signora D'argento
Joined: 03 Jun 2018
Posts: 882
Location: Lancaster, U.K.
 
Addicted
GTS 300ie Touring 2013 - Signora D'argento
Joined: 03 Jun 2018
Posts: 882
Location: Lancaster, U.K.
Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:24 pm linkquote
jess wrote:
This is the exact opposite of Phillips, which is designed to reduce maximum torque, ostensibly to protect the threads during installation by sloppy factory line workers.

So don't over-tighten.
I'm not sure how the factory workers apply the Philips screws that hold the water pump cover on the GTS, but from personal experience mine were massively over-torqued. I had to use so much force to release them that I had to get someone to support the scooter as I put my full weight and strength into undoing them, almost stripping the heads in the process. Anecdotal evidence on this and other sites suggests this is a common problem.
Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:09 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 6158
Location: Latina (Italy)
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 6158
Location: Latina (Italy)
Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:09 am linkquote
Coming soon to your screens:
"The invasion of the metric system!"
Tremble, tremble....Buuuu!
Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:47 am

Addicted
Bo - midnight blue GT200 R.I.P. Tethys - 300 GTS Titanium
Joined: 22 Jul 2008
Posts: 598
Location: Bowie, MD
 
Addicted
Bo - midnight blue GT200 R.I.P. Tethys - 300 GTS Titanium
Joined: 22 Jul 2008
Posts: 598
Location: Bowie, MD
Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:47 am linkquote
I can't remember what it was now, but on my GT I had some US made after-market doo-dad that used an SAE hex. I was inordinately steamed that I had to carry both SAE and metric.

There can be only one!
Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:57 am

Veni, Vidi, Posti
GTS 300ABS, Buddy 125, Buddy Kick 125
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 11771
Location: Oregon City, OR
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
GTS 300ABS, Buddy 125, Buddy Kick 125
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 11771
Location: Oregon City, OR
Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:57 am linkquote
KimPossible wrote:
I can't remember what it was now, but on my GT I had some US made after-market doo-dad that used an SAE hex. I was inordinately steamed that I had to carry both SAE and metric.
Yes, that is an irritating issue with hex heads alright.
Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:22 pm

Addicted
BV 350
Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 922
Location: Nebraska
 
Addicted
BV 350
Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 922
Location: Nebraska
Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:22 pm linkquote
What, no mention of Whitworth, yet another 'standard', used on vintage British gear?
And of course the JIS 'phillip's head, very torque tolerant with the right drivers, strip-o-matic with standard phillips screwdrivers.

I suspect on many machines, the choice of fastener comes down to price.

Was working on my dad's mid-eighties GM car, and it had both SAE and metric heads on fasteners, on the same sub-assembly.

I picked up a collection of drivers (I think Harbor Freight) that included nearly all of the security fasteners, including the 3-point, center-post, and notched. Not the best quality, but can save a trip to the car parts store.

There very definitely is a vast difference in quality of steel used in fasteners. Even the hardware store bin bolts and nuts seem to be better quality than what is found on many vehicles. Generally, at the first sign of rounding off a phillips/torx/hex bolt or nut, I head to the hardware store (on my scooter) for an upgrade.

And always remember, penetrating oil, in whatever flavor you prefer, is your friend.

And for the youngsters among us, they still sell the 'impact drivers' that you hit with a hammer, with the quarter-inch hex bits. Were a staple of life when working on the old Jap bikes without benefit of JIS drivers.
Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:15 pm

Addicted
Bo - midnight blue GT200 R.I.P. Tethys - 300 GTS Titanium
Joined: 22 Jul 2008
Posts: 598
Location: Bowie, MD
 
Addicted
Bo - midnight blue GT200 R.I.P. Tethys - 300 GTS Titanium
Joined: 22 Jul 2008
Posts: 598
Location: Bowie, MD
Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:15 pm linkquote
Jimding wrote:
And for the youngsters among us, they still sell the 'impact drivers' that you hit with a hammer, with the quarter-inch hex bits. Were a staple of life when working on the old Jap bikes without benefit of JIS drivers.
I'm no youngster, but I had never heard of these before. It's kind of like MTV Unplugged - but for mechanical tools. I like!
Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:55 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 6158
Location: Latina (Italy)
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 6158
Location: Latina (Italy)
Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:55 pm linkquote
KimPossible wrote:
I'm no youngster, but I had never heard of these before. It's kind of like MTV Unplugged - but for mechanical tools. I like!
Here ... When the impact screwdriver does not work if you have a socket head screw you can rely on a drill with a widia tip but being very careful.
  DoubleGood Vespa T-Shirts  

All Content Copyright 2005-2021 by Modern Vespa. All Rights Reserved.

Modern Vespa is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to amazon.com.

Shop on Amazon Smile with Modern Vespa
[ Time: 0.0374s ][ Queries: 24 (0.0148s) ][ Debug on ][ 156 ][ Thing Two ]