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I am taking an intermediate skills course tomorrow on my Vespa (already did basic MSF in 2017 and bought my Vespa in June 2020). Of course, it's the hottest day of the year so far Here's to continual improvement! Clown emoticon I'll post my thoughts on it after the course!
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I've taken the MSF ERC (Experienced Rider Course) -- probably very similar. I found it a great refresher and a very positive experience.
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jess wrote:
I've taken the MSF ERC (Experienced Rider Course) -- probably very similar. I found it a great refresher and a very positive experience.
Yes, that's exactly the course I'm taking (I couldn't think of the name and had to go look it up!). Thanks for the vote of confidence -- makes me think it'll be worth in the drenching heat for tomorrow in SoCal (we can't take over 80 degrees).
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Do they teach counter steering ? If so many out there would learn to rely on counter steering they could save themselves getting in so much trouble.
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Lynnb wrote:
Do they teach counter steering ? If so many out there would learn to rely on counter steering they could save themselves getting in so much trouble.
I am of the opinion that the more you try to teach someone counter steering, the less they understand it.
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I taught my wife and she's realizing the positive benefits and I feel better knowing she can pull herself out of a bad curve, counter steering on a 1000 pound bike can make the difference of whether you live or die.
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Many years ago when I had an accident with the Vespa PX 125 I saved my life because I was able to do the counter steering ...
With the PX it was easy because having all the weight behind I braked everything behind and turning the handlebars hit the truck sideways instead of frontally.
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You think you have it all down after riding a bunch of years. A good friend
dragged me reluctantly along to the "Experienced Rider Course". We met
for two sessions. Super course, I recommend it to everyone.

One of our instructors was this petite young lady who could not have been
over 100 pounds in weight. She rode this massive Indian motorcycle.
She had us weaving between cones in the parking lot one handed. Also, the
turn your head and look where you want to go - the scoot follows. That
particular practice maneuver saved my life when I went into a turn on a mountain drop off road to fast.

Any training is important - as long as you survive long enough to take the course.

My experience - rookies take curves to fast and rookies think they are playing the video game "Mario Cart" and both follow to close and change lanes to often.

Wishing everyone a safe trail.

Bob Copeland
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Thanks! Course complete. Onto the Advanced Riding Skills course a bit later.

Weather was good (which I didn't expect) -- and I was the only student in the class!
It was a riding skills practical essentially. So I finished by noon. Yes, counter steering, counterbalancing, looking where you are driving, short stops and veers, traveling over obstacles and lots of small cornering, including the weaving Bob describes.

I thought the most valuable (aside from looking ahead on curves and turns) was the advice once a week to practice short stopping. He suggested marking the pavement with chalk notating the distance of your short stop and see if you can decrease the distance (we did it at 20mph) over time and practice.

Another side, note, on some of my curves, I surprised myself by scraping my crash bars (from leaning into curves).

Highly recommended and I had a great, passionate instructor. I'm super tired because I was the only student and had to pay attention the entire time, LOL.
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pammieellen wrote:
Thanks! Course complete. Onto the Advanced Riding Skills course a bit later.
Excellent! Awesome that you had the course all to yourself. Sounds a lot like what we did in my ERC (which was quite a few years ago).
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A reflection ...
But in the countries of the world how do they do it?
In Italy there are no driving courses for safety, maybe there is something for a fee but who goes there?
And here there are many scooters (and even accidents).
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jess wrote:
I've taken the MSF ERC (Experienced Rider Course) -- probably very similar. I found it a great refresher and a very positive experience.
Did they provide the wheels or did you have to provide your own and does the course emphasize tight turns and slow speed maneuvers?

I'd love to take such a course on one of my bigger bikes but being afraid I might drop it has stopped me from taking the plunge.
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Jet Peddler wrote:
Did they provide the wheels or did you have to provide your own and does the course emphasize tight turns and slow speed maneuvers?
We all rode our own bikes. I rode my GTS. Definitely tight turns and slow speed maneuvers and braking. It was very similar to BRC, but with a deeper focus on the core skills. The instructor would work with each person one-on-one, repeating a drill several times and critiquing the performance each time.

The instructor also had us do loops on a short course laid out in the parking lot that forced us to push our lean limits.
Jet Peddler wrote:
I'd love to take such a course on one of my bigger bikes but being afraid I might drop it has stopped me from taking the plunge.
Nobody dropped their bike during my ERC course, if it's any help.
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Here's my summary of the one I attended way back in 2009: Experienced Rider Course Rocks!

And here's the glory shot:

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
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jess wrote:
We all rode our own bikes. I rode my GTS. Definitely tight turns and slow speed maneuvers and braking. It was very similar to BRC, but with a deeper focus on the core skills. The instructor would work with each person one-on-one, repeating a drill several times and critiquing the performance each time.

The instructor also had us do loops on a short course laid out in the parking lot that forced us to push our lean limits.



Nobody dropped their bike during my ERC course, if it's any help.
Thanks - quite helpful.

My issue is I'd like to become more proficient on my Harley Softail Deluxe, a pristine, almost 800 lb. bike. One scratch on that machine and I'd probably go postal. I don't have that same fear with my GTS300 (although it's in pristine condition as well).

Conundrumsville, population me.
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Yes, exactly as Jet Peddler says. We had a rectangle where we had to do figure 8s -- I put my foot out (almost) once. Did a lot of focus on tight turns - so that was very helpful to get used to curves - - turns out I do a lot of straight type of riding (even though I do our canyons).

They did offer me one of their bikes but I declined (I took first MSF on regular motorcycle) -- maybe once I add another motorcycle to my stable? The Vespa was easier I think due to the automatic transmission and short wheel base.

BTW, the instructor was a (very nice) retired Master Gunnery Sergeant in the USMC.

I do think the US and other countries should offer these classes for free for all - tons of benefits for safety and riders. I have never "scootered" in Napoli (or biked, for that matter (although I worked there and took a bicycle)) because I was frightened of the chaos in the roads in the city (although driving was palatable for me).
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Jet Peddler wrote:
My issue is I'd like to become more proficient on my Harley Softail Deluxe, a pristine, almost 800 lb. bike. One scratch on that machine and I'd probably go postal. I don't have that same fear with my GTS300 (although it's in pristine condition as well).
I think whatever bike you do it on, it will be a worthwhile investment.
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jess wrote:
Here's my summary of the one I attended way back in 2009: Experienced Rider Course Rocks!

And here's the glory shot:

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
That is awesome -- and great post on the matter!
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pammieellen wrote:
They did offer me one of their bikes but I declined (I took first MSF on regular motorcycle) -- maybe once I add another motorcycle to my stable? The Vespa was easier I think due to the automatic transmission and short wheel base.

I took the basic MSF course twice - once on a scoot and once on a motorcycle. I found the the scoot experience about 10x easier (and more fun) than the bike experience. Hence, my concern.
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Jet Peddler wrote:
I took the basic MSF course twice - once on a scoot and once on a motorcycle. I found the the scoot experience about 10x easier (and more fun) than the bike experience. Hence, my concern.
Agreed that the scooter is easier. But you will almost certainly come away with better riding skills no matter what. And to me, that's a win.
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Yes, agree its super valuable!

But I see the point - the Vespa with it's lower center of gravity, short wheelbase and auto trans seemed easier. If I had a motorcycle I would retake it but maybe ease into the more difficult curves. I think the heaviness of the cycle combined with the shifting, different center of gravity, and longer wheelbase makes the skills more difficult. Even the veering portion is very short to avoid a (virtual) bus - which could be much more hard to make the portion between the cones.

BTW, when he gave me instructions (including the short stops, etc) it had a different set of direction for the clutch -- which is why he offered me a Yamaha 200 -- but I only have a Vespa!

The instructor did say different students learn at different levels and many times it is harder for a student to gain confidence -- but the instructors should pace each student individually.

Turns out I'm not as good turning to the right BTW.
⚠️ Last edited by pammieellen on UTC; edited 1 time
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pammieellen wrote:
I have never "scootered" in Napoli (or biked, for that matter (although I worked there and took a bicycle)) because I was frightened of the chaos in the roads in the city (although driving was palatable for me).
In Naples only neapolitans drive well, when i go there I take the train and i move only by taxi and on foot and also when i go to Rome.
If you are not used to the traffic of those cities, not even a safe driving course can save you.
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pammieellen wrote:
I thought the most valuable (aside from looking ahead on curves and turns) was the advice once a week to practice short stopping. He suggested marking the pavement with chalk notating the distance of your short stop and see if you can decrease the distance (we did it at 20mph) over time and practice.
Good advice for everyone. My P200 has been gone a few years now and I've just been riding twisties. So, it's grab the brakes and pay attention to the balance between the two. But when I got the Stella going again the first time I came to a stop it surprised me how rusty I had gotten, especially since it was stalling at corners. Front brake, floor brake, clutch (where the heck is neutral?), feather the gas ... it was enlightening.

I love to drive. I mean, after - let's see - thirty six years (crap, I'm getting old) I still love to get in the car or on the bike and drive. So much so that I always told my daughter, "I'm never just driving; I am practicing." I think this is more the norm for PTW riders because, at least in the US, it's more than just transportation. We get on bikes not just to get from point A to B, we enjoy the trip in between. I wish everyone enjoyed driving half as much as I do. I think the roads would be a much safer and friendlier place.

Kudos for the class. I really, really need to look into doing the same. Thanks for the inspiration.
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I recommend to anyone who buys a new scooter to go on a deserted road to try how he brakes by pulling the brakes more and more (with caution), so if you are in an emergency you will be prepared for the reaction of the suspension and the body of the scooter.
Especially for those who are not used to ABS on a two-wheeled vehicle.
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Lance scooters are sporting a system they call CBS or "Combined Braking System". Apparently both levers control both brakes (both discs) and the system proportions braking for you. If it works well I can see advantages. Haven't ridden one, but I know they make a good scoot.

Check it out HERE.
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seamus26 wrote:
Lance scooters are sporting a system they call CBS or "Combined Braking System". Apparently both levers control both brakes (both discs) and the system proportions braking for you. If it works well I can see advantages. Haven't ridden one, but I know they make a good scoot.
My little three-wheeler has the combined braking system (UBS) plus ABS too, when you squeeze the left lever it locks the brakes (3) like a car, it's a noticeable feeling of safety.
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I did the basic MSF course on the provided harleys cause I figured if I could pass on a harley, then my pending vespa would be no sweat. Turns out I was one of the couple who did not drop their bike the whole time. The bike droppers included the harley rider who had a suspended license for driving under the influence. The guy who rode harleys for years.. dropped his bike. Let that settle in. Also let this settle in... everyone passed, including the two that dropped during the test. Facepalm emoticon

I do plan on doing this advanced course as well (my insurance discount has expired from the beginner msf course.. and its a cheap way to get a decent insurance discount for 3 yrs at a time), but again would prefer to do it on a harley again for the same reason. Mastering it on a harder heavier vehicle means i'll be even better at it on the smaller more nimble vehicles.

My local MSF school does not provide harleys for the advanced course. You provide your own. So I will have to wait until I finally get that sportster my uncle has been bugging me to get!
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I'm signed up to take the basic class starting July 8. I still have only a MC permit. I'm a little nervous about it. What if I drop my precious scooter? I'd be so upset. I thought about using one of their motorcycles but I'd have to learn that whole shifting thing and then what if I don't pass because I was too distracted with that? (Just thinking out loud here, I'm a natural worrywart and over thinker.) On a positive note, I'm really excited to improve my riding skills, and most importantly learn what it takes to be a safe rider.
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Athena61 wrote:
I'm signed up to take the basic class starting July 8. I still have only a MC permit. I'm a little nervous about it. What if I drop my precious scooter? I'd be so upset. I thought about using one of their motorcycles but I'd have to learn that whole shifting thing and then what if I don't pass because I was too distracted with that? (Just thinking out loud here, I'm a natural worrywart and overthinker.) On a positive note, I'm really excited to improve my riding skills, and most importantly learn what it takes to be a safe rider.
If you've never driven a manual transmission car I can understand your misgivings. If you have, then it's the same concept with minor differences.

My husband had only ridden a scooter, never a motorcycle, when he took his MSF. He opted to learn on the motorcycle because everyone else in class would be doing the same. Why sit there through training about shifting a motorcycle while you sit and wait in the sun on a scooter?

I think it's worth learning because you may never know when that skill may come in handy.
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Athena61 wrote:
I'm signed up to take the basic class starting July 8. I still have only a MC permit. I'm a little nervous about it. What if I drop my precious scooter? I'd be so upset. I thought about using one of their motorcycles but I'd have to learn that whole shifting thing and then what if I don't pass because I was too distracted with that? (Just thinking out loud here, I'm a natural worrywart and over thinker.) On a positive note, I'm really excited to improve my riding skills, and most importantly learn what it takes to be a safe rider.
For the BRC, I am a firm believer in using their class bikes. Yes, you have to learn to shift. But in the grand scheme of things, this is a minor point, and a useful skill to boot. And if you drop it, it's not the end of the world.

Drop your scoot and you will regret it.
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Guzzi Gal wrote:
If you've never driven a manual transmission car I can understand your misgivings. If you have, then it's the same concept with minor differences.

My husband had only ridden a scooter, never a motorcycle, when he took his MSF. He opted to learn on the motorcycle because everyone else in class would be doing the same. Why sit there through training about shifting a motorcycle while you sit and wait in the sun on a scooter?

I think it's worth learning because you may never know when that skill may come in handy.
All good thoughts. My first car was a manual, almost 40 years ago. I suppose you're right. You never know when it might come in handy. Plus, if I totally feel uncomfortable after the first of the two field days I could bring my scooter to the class. Worst case scenario: I flunk the MC safety course, don't get my endorsement, and then just take the skills test at the DMV. I'm guessing it's a scaled down version of what I would take at the safety course.
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jess wrote:
For the BRC, I am a firm believer in using their class bikes. Yes, you have to learn to shift. But in the grand scheme of things, this is a minor point, and a useful skill to boot. And if you drop it, it's not the end of the world.

Drop your scoot and you will regret it.
You guys have convinced me. I'm going to use theirs. I would be soooo upset if I dropped mine.
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Athena61 wrote:
You guys have convinced me. I'm going to use theirs. I would be soooo upset if I dropped mine.
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I took a refresher course this past April. I was the only scooter. They all had big BMW adventure bikes. Always good to refresh.
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