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Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:01 am

Enthusiast
2013 MP3 300ie
Joined: 24 Nov 2017
Posts: 85
Location: Netherlands
 
Enthusiast
2013 MP3 300ie
Joined: 24 Nov 2017
Posts: 85
Location: Netherlands
Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:01 am linkquote
Since the master piston seal of the suspension lock of my MP3 seemed to be on its way out, and after seeing a video about the new Yamaha trike and its Tilt Lock Assist system, I tried something I 've been contemplating for a long time..

I temporarily "disabled" the hydraulic part of the tiltlock system, only keeping the cable-operated brake segment.

So far, I realy like the way it works now!

It's just like the recent Yamaha trikes. At first it feels scary rolling the scooter around with the front locked but the shocks still working, but you'll soon find that it won't drop easily. To me, it even feels more predictable on uneven terrain.

If I can't find a convincing reason to revert this modification, I'll make this change permanent. So instead of draining the system to fix the piston seal, I will just drain the system, and leave it at that. A drained system will not develop leaks, and it wil put less strain on the tilt lock motor, keeping that part alive for a few more years - and it will be less work when I have to replace the steering head bearings, knowing this time will come sooner or later .

A while ago I already disconnected the wire going from the tilt lock warning relay to the horn, which means the horn is still working, but it doesn't sound when the system loses pressure.

I tested switching on the ignition and starting the engine with the pressure sensor disconnected, to simulate the loss of pressure that will happen when I drain the hydraulic system later on - no problems here as far as I could tell (I don't check for, nor care about ODB2 error codes)..

How this works:


Remove these from the front shock brackets by taking out the front fender bolts..


Reinstall the bushings, otherwise you'll crush the brackets with the fender bolts..


This is how it still stands on its own without hydraulics.. Yes, jou can make it lean a bit because of the unlocked shocks, but it won't drop!


Deliberately locked at an angle, to demonstrate the remaining stability without hydraulics. Repeat: without hydraulics and deliberately locked way off centre!

Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:54 am

Hooked
Piaggio MP3 ie 400
Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 142
Location: Sydney
 
Hooked
Piaggio MP3 ie 400
Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 142
Location: Sydney
Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:54 am linkquote
hi,

Interesting...

I am not a mechanic and I just don't understand the difference between : with hydraulics and with what you did, can you provide more clarification in English terms, so you can put it to stand like in the picture but once you ride it it reverts back to like a two wheeler?
if so, what is the difference?

and why did you do it? if something went wrong, isn't it better to fix it, than lose the whole thing?
thanks,
Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:47 am

Enthusiast
2013 MP3 300ie
Joined: 24 Nov 2017
Posts: 85
Location: Netherlands
 
Enthusiast
2013 MP3 300ie
Joined: 24 Nov 2017
Posts: 85
Location: Netherlands
Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:47 am linkquote
The tilt lock system consists of two main parts driven by one electric motor:

One part is the cable operated brake caliper that keeps the bike upright. This is the most important part of the tilt lock system.

The other part of the system is a hydraulic contraption for locking the front shocks. This part of the system is only there to make the scoot stand "rock solid" without any movement possible in the front shocks - which is not strictly necessary to keep the scoot upright.




The only important change I made is that I disconnected the hydraulic part...

*** THE BIKE STILL LOCKS AND UNLOCKS THE FRONT EXACTLY LIKE IT ALWAYS DID. ***




The only difference is that the front shocks are allowed to do their job now even when the bike is locked upright, which means that the bike may lean a bit because the suspension can be compressed if you push the bike to one side, or if one side of the bike is heavier (i.e. exhaust side).

In practice this leaning proves not to be a big deal - it doesn't happen all the time, and it can even be countered by turning the handlebars a bit while parked, which will subtly change the balance of the scoot.

This modification also fixes the bouncing of the scoot when you roll it around. Rolling it over an obstacle at an angle no longer feels like you're wrestling a big bouncing monster, since its suspension is working as it should (it just feels like a big dead monster now ) .

Last edited by mono on Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:43 am; edited 5 times in total
Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:05 am

Enthusiast
2013 MP3 300ie
Joined: 24 Nov 2017
Posts: 85
Location: Netherlands
 
Enthusiast
2013 MP3 300ie
Joined: 24 Nov 2017
Posts: 85
Location: Netherlands
Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:05 am linkquote
Oh, and for the "why":

I refuse to do a lot of work to fix something I don't really need

(Seriously, I hate working with brake fluid - I know how to drain, fill and bleed this system, but life would be better if those italians designed it for use with olive oil, instead of this corrosive and toxic DOT4 stuff, which seems impossible not to spill, will eat anything that resembles paint, plastics, gloves or skin, and seems to never really go away completely no matter how long you rinse..)

And I really like the tilt lock system this way!

IMO, the Piaggio engineers tried to make the "Tilt Lock" system look and feel good to inexperienced riders, while the Yamaha engineers went for simple and reliable with their "Tilt Lock Assist" system, which does the job just fine .
Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:32 pm

Hooked
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 424
Location: Belgium
 
Hooked
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 424
Location: Belgium
Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:32 pm linkquote
mono wrote:
...life would be better if those italians designed it for use with olive oil... .
What if the olive oil is no longer a "virgin" :
Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:54 pm

Enthusiast
2013 MP3 300ie
Joined: 24 Nov 2017
Posts: 85
Location: Netherlands
 
Enthusiast
2013 MP3 300ie
Joined: 24 Nov 2017
Posts: 85
Location: Netherlands
Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:54 pm linkquote
No problem, "ex(tra) vergine" is also fine ..
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:07 pm

Hooked
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 424
Location: Belgium
 
Hooked
2015 MP3 500 ie Business
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 424
Location: Belgium
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:07 pm linkquote
No virgin = Better "ride"
Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:26 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2012 Honda NC700 DCT, 2014 Can Am Spyder RT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 6563
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2012 Honda NC700 DCT, 2014 Can Am Spyder RT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 6563
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:26 pm linkquote
All things considered I have to wonder if there is any harm in filling the tilt lock system with mineral oil.
Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:19 pm

Hooked
50cc Beo, MP3 400 2012, BigBeo 2003
Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 292
Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
 
Hooked
50cc Beo, MP3 400 2012, BigBeo 2003
Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 292
Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:19 pm linkquote
Won't it tilt under its own weight?
Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:17 pm

Enthusiast
2013 MP3 300ie
Joined: 24 Nov 2017
Posts: 85
Location: Netherlands
 
Enthusiast
2013 MP3 300ie
Joined: 24 Nov 2017
Posts: 85
Location: Netherlands
Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:17 pm linkquote
Madison Sully wrote:
All things considered I have to wonder if there is any harm in filling the tilt lock system with mineral oil.
Since the tilt lock system seals are designed for DOT4 compatibility, they will very probably swell in mineral oil and make the calipers stick - which will surely not improve the ride .

Although, as a teenager I filled the brake system of my Yamaha RD50 with regular engine oil, which has been working fine for at least a few years... YMMV apparently..


For me, simply disabling (and ultimately removing) the hydraulic part of the system is not only an easy fix for a worn piston seal, but also an improvement in usability and reliability .

Fixing it is out of the question, unless there's some side effect I haven't noticed yet.
Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:35 pm

Enthusiast
2013 MP3 300ie
Joined: 24 Nov 2017
Posts: 85
Location: Netherlands
 
Enthusiast
2013 MP3 300ie
Joined: 24 Nov 2017
Posts: 85
Location: Netherlands
Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:35 pm linkquote
Jah wrote:
Won't it tilt under its own weight?
It won't tilt under its own weight, just like a brick standing on its side

Since the suspension can be compressed now while the scoot is locked upright, it will lean a bit when pushed, and it's probably a bit easier to tip over, but not by much.

It works just like the "Tilt Lock Assist" system of the Yamaha Tricity 300 now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djZIc1ZrgtI
(watch 0:00 and 6:19)
Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:44 pm

Enthusiast
2016 Mp3 500ie Sport
Joined: 28 Jul 2019
Posts: 77
Location: California
 
Enthusiast
2016 Mp3 500ie Sport
Joined: 28 Jul 2019
Posts: 77
Location: California
Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:44 pm linkquote
How does it handle being put on or off the center stand? When I take my bike off the center stand the front bounces around a fair amount. A few times I've forgotten to re-lock the tilt prior to taking it off the center stand and each time it toppled after swaying heavily.

Do you have to hang onto it more or have a more stabilizing stance when taking it off the center stand?

Do you straddle the bike via its step-through shape to stabilize it during the jostling when taking it off center stand?

Looks like a neat modification. I'm curious if weight can be reduced by removing the now un-needed hydraulics components for as demonstrated it locks just fine without them. There are a few tens of pounds to be removed which would boost performance and handling depending on how stable it is.
Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:11 pm

Enthusiast
2013 MP3 300ie
Joined: 24 Nov 2017
Posts: 85
Location: Netherlands
 
Enthusiast
2013 MP3 300ie
Joined: 24 Nov 2017
Posts: 85
Location: Netherlands
Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:11 pm linkquote
I don't have the center stand on the scoot anymore (it was scraping the road too often), so I can't comment on that.

I don't think you'll have a problem with the center stand. It will often lean to one side a bit, but it won't tip over on it's own. The scoot is actually more stable in those kind of situations now since it doesn't bounce anymore.

You need to have some trust in that however, since it might look and feel like it's tipping over at first. I can imagine one overcompensates for that, and loses their own balance as a result.

If you're not feeling confident about this, you might get an assistant to stand on the other side of the scoot when taking it off the stand for the first time, just in case - but you'll get used to the "new feel" very soon.
Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:19 pm

Enthusiast
2013 MP3 300ie
Joined: 24 Nov 2017
Posts: 85
Location: Netherlands
 
Enthusiast
2013 MP3 300ie
Joined: 24 Nov 2017
Posts: 85
Location: Netherlands
Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:19 pm linkquote
This modification will not save a lot of weight, the two rods I removed weigh next to nothing, and the hoses and calipers don't look that heavy as well.

I expect most of the weight to be in the electric motor and gearing that drives the system, and you need to keep that - unless you ditch the parking brake and connect the cable-operated tilt lock caliper to the parking brake handle of course, a mod I've also been contemplating for a while...

Maybe Jerry can shine some light on this? He removed and weighed the whole system as part of his naked mp3 project..
Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:58 pm

Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 345
Location: United Kingdom.
 
Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 345
Location: United Kingdom.
Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:58 pm linkquote
Thats a interesting mod mono. Having the suspension locked and going over a uneven surface like a roadside curb with the front wheels at an angle can be a bit of a handfull with it swaying back and forth. What i will do is remove the stainless rods and fit the bottom bushes back in place as you have done . Then rather than drain the fluid i will make up 2 plain stainless rods threaded at both ends to take nuts and have them captive in the hydralic cylinders that way i can give it a go and if i don't like it i can go back to standard.
Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:56 pm

Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21882
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21882
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:56 pm linkquote
3legsofman wrote:
Thats a interesting mod mono. Having the suspension locked and going over a uneven surface like a roadside curb with the front wheels at an angle can be a bit of a handfull with it swaying back and forth. What i will do is remove the stainless rods and fit the bottom bushes back in place as you have done . Then rather than drain the fluid i will make up 2 plain stainless rods threaded at both ends to take nuts and have them captive in the hydralic cylinders that way i can give it a go and if i don't like it i can go back to standard.
I am being a bit daft here, why would you attempt to go over a curb with the suspension locked? especially at an angle no less?
Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:07 pm

Enthusiast
2013 MP3 300ie
Joined: 24 Nov 2017
Posts: 85
Location: Netherlands
 
Enthusiast
2013 MP3 300ie
Joined: 24 Nov 2017
Posts: 85
Location: Netherlands
Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:07 pm linkquote
3legsofman wrote:
Thats a interesting mod mono. Having the suspension locked and going over a uneven surface like a roadside curb with the front wheels at an angle can be a bit of a handfull with it swaying back and forth. What i will do is remove the stainless rods and fit the bottom bushes back in place as you have done . Then rather than drain the fluid i will make up 2 plain stainless rods threaded at both ends to take nuts and have them captive in the hydralic cylinders that way i can give it a go and if i don't like it i can go back to standard.
Good idea!

Putting rods in the cylinders will prevent the horn sounding on startup (otherwise it would take a few lock/unlock cycles before pressure returns, just like with a brake caliper with the disk removed).

And it will also prevent any possible damage to the cylinders (maybe they're fine without this, but you never know - I should check mine, maybe they crush themselves without rods in them).
Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:32 pm

Enthusiast
2013 MP3 300ie
Joined: 24 Nov 2017
Posts: 85
Location: Netherlands
 
Enthusiast
2013 MP3 300ie
Joined: 24 Nov 2017
Posts: 85
Location: Netherlands
Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:32 pm linkquote
old as dirt wrote:
I am being a bit daft here, why would you attempt to go over a curb with the suspension locked? especially at an angle no less?
Sometimes it's the only way to get somewhere

When I get my MP3 out of the garage, I have to cross the doorstep at an angle in order to get the front of the scoot facing the street.

And often it's the only way to get out of a parking spot on the pavement. Over here they build everything way too small, and put lamp posts and other objects in the way - and stupid people park their bikes right behind your bike for example, so, often we have no choice .
Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:00 pm

Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 345
Location: United Kingdom.
 
Hooked
2008 fuoco
Joined: 19 Jul 2015
Posts: 345
Location: United Kingdom.
Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:00 pm linkquote
You could also say why would anyone with a motorcycle licence be daft enough to buy a 3 wheeled scooter especialy one made by piaggio As you will well know with the bike bolt upright and locked if your pushing the bike and you go over a raised object like a kerb and and you don't go over it with both wheels at 90 degrees to the kerb the bike will rock about quite a bit and even sitting on the bike and paddleing backwards you have to be carefull .My disability also does not help and have to be extra carefull but even if i was able bodied it's still well known issue with the mp3. I'm going to try the mono mod and see if it helps me i can always go back to standard very easily.
old as dirt wrote:
I am being a bit daft here, why would you attempt to go over a curb with the suspension locked? especially at an angle no less?
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