@moto64 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '65 VBB, '66 Allstate SF, '66 180SS
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Molto Verboso
@moto64 avatar
'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '65 VBB, '66 Allstate SF, '66 180SS
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Location: S.Salem, NY
UTC quote
You might want to re-think replicating the spot welds. The original dimple is made by softening and compressing the material under very high heat. Unless you could get a heavy anvil behind the panel and compress the metal directly under the punch, you will, most likely, just deform and damage the beautiful work you have done.
If you're planning on at least a thin skim of filler to level it all out, and you are way better than I am if you can pull it off without, you are probably going to fill the spots anyway.

If you are going to cut both overlapping layers of the leg shield together, you're going to end up with a gap the width of the disk. Or more... I saw a guy cut an overlap with the disk at a 45 degree angle and the two layers came together on the bevels.

You've come a long way with your welding and that gas mix makes a world of difference.
OP
@hjo avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Scattered remnants of (two!) 1974 Rallys
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Location: San Francisco, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@hjo avatar
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UTC quote
Thank you so much!

I'm going to try the 45 degree angle.

Hm. Maybe the punch is a bad idea. I could also use a Dremel and grinder, or leave it.
OP
@hjo avatar
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Molto Verboso
Scattered remnants of (two!) 1974 Rallys
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Molto Verboso
@hjo avatar
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UTC quote
Almost done with welding!

Fitting that legshield was a LOT of work! It had to be reshaped a lot at the top.

But all done except for fixing the tail part.

That's a challenge, too!
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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I filled a lot of the holes. This is better.
I filled a lot of the holes. This is better.
The legshield needs a bit of reshaping. Luckily the Ulma trim covers the edges. those didn't match exactly.
The legshield needs a bit of reshaping. Luckily the Ulma trim covers the edges. those didn't match exactly.
@rallygeek avatar
UTC

Hooked
Polaris Grey Rally 200, Blue Marine Primavera ET3, Coral Red 50 Special
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Location: Melbourne
 
Hooked
@rallygeek avatar
Polaris Grey Rally 200, Blue Marine Primavera ET3, Coral Red 50 Special
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UTC quote
Amazing work.
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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UTC quote
It's looking phenomenal and, yes, the trim will cover up any rough edges. I took advantage of that fact with my VBB legshield repairs, too. It's all good!
OP
@hjo avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Scattered remnants of (two!) 1974 Rallys
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Location: San Francisco, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@hjo avatar
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UTC quote
Wiring.

I spoke to Bar Italia, and Kristian suggested I make a new wiring harness. Apparently, the one on Scooterhelp isn't correct for 1974, so I need to copy this one.

Since I have two 1974 Rallys, I can do both. The other didn't have any wiring except inside the headset.

So question:
1. What is the gauge?
2. Are there good sources for wiring/parts?

I want all the colors to be right, so there are some weird ones. Two-colored wires. The main ones seem to come in kits with white/black/yellow/red pretty inexpensively.

I have to find all the right connectors and plastic covers, shrink wrap, but hopefully it's not too hard with this one to use for reference.
This wiring smells like mold. Bad sign.
This wiring smells like mold. Bad sign.
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
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UTC quote
First off, make sure that any wire you buy is tinned copper, not copper-plated aluminum.

I think you want 16ga, and I'd suggest getting it from a marine supplier, someone like Defender or West Marine, who will probably have all you want and then some, albeit possibly in larger spools than you're really looking for (but not necessarily).

This might be a good time to invest in some cheap automatic wire strippers, too. I picked some up and for doing anything more than one or two ends, I don't know how I ever lived without them.
OP
@hjo avatar
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Molto Verboso
Scattered remnants of (two!) 1974 Rallys
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Location: San Francisco, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@hjo avatar
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UTC quote
Thanks! I'll check them out!

I saw tinned copper, and thought it was wrong, bc the old wires are just plain copper.
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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UTC quote
Yeah, tinned copper is corrosion-resistant. You can also look for "Marine Grade" or "ABYC" and they should be the same thing.
@orwell84 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
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Location: northern New York
 
Ossessionato
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UTC quote
Crimp pliers and crimp connectors if you don't have them. They are referred to as open barrel connectors. They are way better than the hardware store type. There are 2 basic sizes, male and female. I haven't found ring terminals like that, so I solder those.
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@108 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
V range 50s
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Ossessionato
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V range 50s
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UTC quote
chandlerman wrote:
First off, make sure that any wire you buy is tinned copper, not copper-plated aluminum.

I think you want 16ga, and I'd suggest getting it from a marine supplier, someone like Defender or West Marine, who will probably have all you want and then some, albeit possibly in larger spools than you're really looking for (but not necessarily).

This might be a good time to invest in some cheap automatic wire strippers, too. I picked some up and for doing anything more than one or two ends, I don't know how I ever lived without them.
+1 on the wire stripper…

I thought I'd be ok with a cutter/twisting type of stripper, oh I was so wrong.

Can't remember life before the auto stripper…
@socalguy avatar
UTC

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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@rowdyc avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
GL, PK, PE200 with hack, Sears Rust Badge
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Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
 
Molto Verboso
@rowdyc avatar
GL, PK, PE200 with hack, Sears Rust Badge
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UTC quote
Why not a 12v conversion harness, battery, static stator, 12v regulator, and some new switches. The sip 12v conv wiring harness has wires for an extra kill switch that can be used for the key switch under the seat. I used those kill wires on a switch in the GL tool box. Also, the conversion wiring harness for the German rally with handlebar turn signals has the wires for a flasher and turn signals switch but need to add wires for US rear turn signals. May need to add a wire for high beam light above speedo…if you have that light.

It's just me but I'd rather fight a mountain lion then build a reliable wiring harness. I hear converting the euro rally harness to fit US switches and that fesma ignition is harder then building a new harness.
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
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UTC quote
Rowdy is right on this one.

Having just done my second install of the BGM conversion harness, it's dead easy.

I was hooking it up as a DC setup with the SIP Vape for an added difficulty factor, but it was *still* dead easy. Sure, I had to run the wires for the front and rear turn signals, but that took almost no time at all since I was doing it all on a bare frame and the harness has the spot for the relay connector and power to the switch pre-built for you.
OP
@hjo avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Scattered remnants of (two!) 1974 Rallys
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1845
Location: San Francisco, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@hjo avatar
Scattered remnants of (two!) 1974 Rallys
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Location: San Francisco, CA
UTC quote
rowdyc wrote:
Why not a 12v conversion harness, battery, static stator, 12v regulator, and some new switches. The sip 12v conv wiring harness has wires for an extra kill switch that can be used for the key switch under the seat. I used those kill wires on a switch in the GL tool box. Also, the conversion wiring harness for the German rally with handlebar turn signals has the wires for a flasher and turn signals switch but need to add wires for US rear turn signals. May need to add a wire for high beam light above speedo…if you have that light.

It's just me but I'd rather fight a mountain lion then build a reliable wiring harness. I hear converting the euro rally harness to fit US switches and that fesma ignition is harder then building a new harness.
Thanks for all the tips!

I thought about this!

On that other Rally, I think I will do this. Just make it German spec with the handlebar lights, and prob 12v.

I saw the thread about trying to convert the german one to a US 1974, and it sounded like a nightmare.

I have all the original US market 1974 parts, and want to keep this one original.

I know the 1974s has a lot of electrical problems, though. The headlight runs off the battery. It's unique just one year, just US.

I got the stator rewired, and have the Femsa stuff.

The wiring is probably the hardest part.

I love the wiring harnesses that you can just buy. I put one in my P200 and it was so easy.
OP
@hjo avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Scattered remnants of (two!) 1974 Rallys
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Location: San Francisco, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@hjo avatar
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UTC quote
More of this. Getting close.

Domo arigato, mr. fabricato.
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Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
This was so degraded.
This was so degraded.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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The left side is not attached, but omg. this looks not straight. Might just be the angle. The edges all lined up. Hopefully can fix tomorrow.
The left side is not attached, but omg. this looks not straight. Might just be the angle. The edges all lined up. Hopefully can fix tomorrow.
Need some adjusting to fit this side.
Need some adjusting to fit this side.
Might be the angle of the photo, but this is freaking me out.

I guess it's all fixable, if I need to redo.
Might be the angle of the photo, but this is freaking me out. I guess it's all fixable, if I need to redo.
But looks ok in this one. :)
But looks ok in this one. :)
⚠️ Last edited by hjo on UTC; edited 2 times
@sjoerdo avatar
UTC

Member
Faro basso 53, Motovespa 58, V50 71
Joined: UTC
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Location: Netherlands
 
Member
@sjoerdo avatar
Faro basso 53, Motovespa 58, V50 71
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UTC quote
really impressive, seeing where you started from and how far it has come now, inspirational!
OP
@hjo avatar
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Molto Verboso
Scattered remnants of (two!) 1974 Rallys
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1845
Location: San Francisco, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@hjo avatar
Scattered remnants of (two!) 1974 Rallys
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UTC quote
Sjoerdo wrote:
really impressive, seeing where you started from and how far it has come now, inspirational!
Thanks! This has taken a year! But it's getting close! Almost ready for paint!
@birdsnest avatar
UTC

Not So Moderator
VNB VSC VMA VSX - o9c vbc vmb
Joined: UTC
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Location: Hustletown, TX
 
Not So Moderator
@birdsnest avatar
VNB VSC VMA VSX - o9c vbc vmb
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UTC quote
Sjoerdo wrote:
really impressive, seeing where you started from and how far it has come now, inspirational!
+1

Truly.
@moto64 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '65 VBB, '66 Allstate SF, '66 180SS
Joined: UTC
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Location: S.Salem, NY
 
Molto Verboso
@moto64 avatar
'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '65 VBB, '66 Allstate SF, '66 180SS
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1829
Location: S.Salem, NY
UTC quote
The metal work is the fun part. Are you going to the prep and painting yourself ?
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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UTC quote
This is some outstanding and looking great!

Fabricating random sections of scooter is definitely next-level work.
OP
@hjo avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Scattered remnants of (two!) 1974 Rallys
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Posts: 1845
Location: San Francisco, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@hjo avatar
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UTC quote
Moto64 wrote:
The metal work is the fun part. Are you going to the prep and painting yourself ?
I'm going to do the prep. I found a place to paint it. I don't have anywhere to do this myself.

I need to do the prep, I think, just to know where to use filler and not, seal all the seams, etc.

But the place seems great. They do lowriders and classic American cars. They quoted me $1500 if I get the paint. I guess the paint is expensive, too. The shop guy said a gallon of PPG is around $1200. But there's another brand called Essential (I think) that is much cheaper and good quality.

I think I'll do single stage paint. Though I'm not sure if you can tell the difference. But the original paint was single stage.

Still have to decide on color, but I feel like I should keep the original white, bc it survived so original so long.
It was in such bad shape, but survived in original condition.
It was in such bad shape, but survived in original condition.
OP
@hjo avatar
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Molto Verboso
Scattered remnants of (two!) 1974 Rallys
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
The wiring. So frustrating.

You can get high quality looms for $100, but they're really different.

The German ones have a battery and indicators, and the same switches.

BUT: there's no rectifier. There's only one yellow wire. The wires are all different colors. And the switch is on the headset, so would need to run wires for the rear indicators, and back down through the body to the ignition switch.

After seeing this thread, it seems like I need to just make one.
Replacing Rally 200 wiring loom

Though might still be easier to modify one than do it all from scratch.
German
German
American, and this is not 1974. The switch on this one is on the headset. But I think otherwise the same.
American, and this is not 1974. The switch on this one is on the headset. But I think otherwise the same.
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Ossessionato
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Ossessionato
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UTC quote
We'll look at you go!

Don't do that shit…

With the lines.

I've been there. Welded this big heavy deformation panel that ran the width of my bus and snapped a photo. Weird angle. Took a whole bunch more and it looked off in the other direction. The more you do that the more fucked up it will look.

Trust me.

Yer doin' good.
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UTC quote
making a wiring harness from scratch is not hard and is the only way I'll go at this point.

I've got the diagram for the stock US harness someplace, but if you make it yourself you can have it function exactly how you want.

Example:
https://modernvespa.com/forum/post1753169#1753169
OP
@hjo avatar
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Molto Verboso
Scattered remnants of (two!) 1974 Rallys
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Location: San Francisco, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@hjo avatar
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UTC quote
It was very crooked! I had to remove the tack welds and fill the seam with strips of metal. I added a LOT of metal, which is kind of sculpting back.

The outside will look good, but the inside is a bit ugly! And there's a brace in the way of grinding.

Ran out of time grinding. But it's getting there! One more day to clean it up and fix pinholes.

This has been so much work!!
oops! Well, it's square now.
oops! Well, it's square now.
Filled the seam with little strips
Filled the seam with little strips
This will grind down, I swear.
This will grind down, I swear.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
It's maybe too pointy.
It's maybe too pointy.
I think I can hammer/dolly this into perfect shape.
I think I can hammer/dolly this into perfect shape.
This is what threw it off. This side points down more. But matches now.
This is what threw it off. This side points down more. But matches now.
This is Robot's rally. It's a bit more rounded. I rounded the edges too, but not quite this much.

I think I can round just the corners a bit more, with jewelry punches.
This is Robot's rally. It's a bit more rounded. I rounded the edges too, but not quite this much. I think I can round just the corners a bit more, with jewelry punches.
Not quite there yet.
Not quite there yet.
⚠️ Last edited by hjo on UTC; edited 2 times
OP
@hjo avatar
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Molto Verboso
Scattered remnants of (two!) 1974 Rallys
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Molto Verboso
@hjo avatar
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UTC quote
oopsclunkthud wrote:
making a wiring harness from scratch is not hard and is the only way I'll go at this point.

I've got the diagram for the stock US harness someplace, but if you make it yourself you can have it function exactly how you want.

Example:
https://modernvespa.com/forum/post1753169#1753169
That looks great!

If you run across it! I have the old harness, but some of the wires have been changed out. I think it's probably similar to the later American Rally, except for the location of the ignition?

Kristian at Bar Italia said that 1974 was the only year the headlight runs off the battery, but that's a bad design! He said it's fine, though. and LED lights help bc they don't drain as much.
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UTC quote
in the past i used shrink wrap for the housing, but have since ordered from here and it's way nicer.

http://www.cycleterminal.com/sleeve-tubing.html

I use unwaxed dental floss to bundle the wires and keep them in place.
@orwell84 avatar
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Ossessionato
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Ossessionato
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UTC quote
Lol…I was looking in the wrong place. Good save. Carry on.
OP
@hjo avatar
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Molto Verboso
Scattered remnants of (two!) 1974 Rallys
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Molto Verboso
@hjo avatar
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UTC quote
orwell84 wrote:
Lol…I was looking in the wrong place. Good save. Carry on.
I put the t square on the bottom edge, and lined up with the center seam, and was so far off.

It looks a bit rough, but should grind smooth. This was a challenge! I'm surprised no one makes a patch panel.
@moto64 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '65 VBB, '66 Allstate SF, '66 180SS
Joined: UTC
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Location: S.Salem, NY
 
Molto Verboso
@moto64 avatar
'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '65 VBB, '66 Allstate SF, '66 180SS
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UTC quote
You have certainly come a long way.
Once you figure out how to build with the wire, you can sculpt things out of solid metal. Your corners could be ground round and then filled and built and ground again. Copper sheet behind it limits the build up. Aluminum also works as the steel weld won't stick to either.
Or kerf them and roll them together.
Speaking of grinding... keep in mind that the highest points will determine the thickness of the filler.
OP
@hjo avatar
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Molto Verboso
Scattered remnants of (two!) 1974 Rallys
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Molto Verboso
@hjo avatar
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UTC quote
There are still some high spots I need to grind.

It's amazing! Once you get the hang of welding, it's more precise than it looks at first!

Here are some shots in better light.

I think I just need to round the corners more, and grind/straighten just a little.

I kerfed the tail to shape it. That's why there's so much metal. I think I can grind flat.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Just some grinding to do here.
Just some grinding to do here.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Can I just hammer the edges to mold around these? It might also crumple. But I was able to round a bit over the anvil.
Can I just hammer the edges to mold around these? It might also crumple. But I was able to round a bit over the anvil.
Even the concours restos aren't perfect. This one looks reshaped, but I'd never have noticed.
Even the concours restos aren't perfect. This one looks reshaped, but I'd never have noticed.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
All the scars are ready to hide.
All the scars are ready to hide.
OP
@hjo avatar
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Molto Verboso
Scattered remnants of (two!) 1974 Rallys
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Got the tail shaped pretty well.

With the tail square, the cowls fit perfect, they were sitting at kind of weird angles at the back, but the whole tail was crunched.

Just have to fix the fork stop, and touch up a couple of holes, and it's ready for filler.

It's impossible to find a photo of a square tail in perfect shape. Even the high quality restorations are all repaired and look different.

I managed to weld in missing nuts for the seat and seat post. And they work! small victory.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
before
before
⚠️ Last edited by hjo on UTC; edited 3 times
@chandlerman avatar
UTC

Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate, 79 P200E, 66 Lammy S3
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UTC quote
That tail looks absolutely amazing!

You sure you've never done this before?
OP
@hjo avatar
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Molto Verboso
Scattered remnants of (two!) 1974 Rallys
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Molto Verboso
@hjo avatar
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UTC quote
chandlerman wrote:
That tail looks absolutely amazing!

You sure you've never done this before?
Never have fabricated anything!

But it's not as hard as I thought. You can keep working with it until it's right.

The tail on my other Rally frame is even worse than this was, so I guess I'll have a second shot at it.
UTC

Addicted
1968 VBB150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 703
Location: OC
 
Addicted
1968 VBB150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 703
Location: OC
UTC quote
I used the legsheild forming vice grips on the tail and they are very good for getting the lip right FYI
@charlieman22 avatar
UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4076
Location: california
 
Nedminder
@charlieman22 avatar
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4076
Location: california
UTC quote
Seriously good outcome - though if totally honest - this flat is my least favorite feature of Vespas after 1961. Just kills me that they added that rather than keeping it round.
Your repair however, is excellent.
Very nice job.
@orwell84 avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3018
Location: northern New York
 
Ossessionato
@orwell84 avatar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 3018
Location: northern New York
UTC quote
Looks great. You've come a long way.
@oopsclunkthud avatar
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Banned
3:5
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8946
Location: San Francisco
 
Banned
@oopsclunkthud avatar
3:5
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8946
Location: San Francisco
UTC quote
for reference:

Unsmashed '74 US OG paint Rally 200, with some non-stock holes.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
OP
@hjo avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Scattered remnants of (two!) 1974 Rallys
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1845
Location: San Francisco, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@hjo avatar
Scattered remnants of (two!) 1974 Rallys
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1845
Location: San Francisco, CA
UTC quote
oopsclunkthud wrote:
Unsmashed '74 US OG paint Rally 200, with some non-stock holes.
That's really helpful!

mine's not quite right. But I think is maybe close enough.

That's really interesting. In other photos I saw, there was similar. There's a slight crease on the bead on the left side, but not the right. Must have been the way they were pressed.

Your cowls meet perfectly at the bottom edge, too. But mine wasn't like that even before. The tail is a bit lower.

The cowls seem to fit so different, but they are original.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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