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@hjo avatar
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Molto Verboso
Scattered remnants of (two!) 1974 Rallys
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
I love the original Piaggio top end. Going to install this week at the shop.

Which way does the arrow go? I'm guessing up.

It doesn't look like the ports in the piston line up with ports in the barrel. Are those just there to lubricate the piston?
The Piaggio mark. That no one will ever see.
The Piaggio mark. That no one will ever see.
Machined crown.
Machined crown.
The ports come finished. There are file marks on the edges.
The ports come finished. There are file marks on the edges.
The rings are placed inside the cylinder. I haven't checked, but it looks like the gaps are perfect 0.2mm
The rings are placed inside the cylinder. I haven't checked, but it looks like the gaps are perfect 0.2mm
I have no idea what to do with these. These are header gaskets? But there's no way to keep them in place on the taper.
I have no idea what to do with these. These are header gaskets? But there's no way to keep them in place on the taper.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Got a new one of these. It's machined from a plumbing pipe. :) Think I'll keep the original Piaggio one.
Got a new one of these. It's machined from a plumbing pipe. :) Think I'll keep the original Piaggio one.
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The Dude
Too Many piles of Junk that need too much work and too much money
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UTC quote
Nice bit of cylinder. One thing to note: Inspect the exhaust port area inside the cylinder, where the stub threads in. There was a manufacturing issue with some previous kits, where the machining was too deep and caused a break thru- which caused air leaks. There are posts/threads on this forum about it. Others will probably chime in.

Arrow on piston points down - towards the exhaust port.

Trash those rubber bands. Not needed
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@hjo avatar
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Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
GeekLion wrote:
Arrow on piston points down - towards the exhaust port.

Trash those rubber bands. Not needed
Thanks! I might have put it upside down!

The machining looks not very deep. It's about half the depth of the thread.

Really impressed with this. It's apparently a licensed Piaggio vendor, but very nice quality.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
More parts!

I found a Sipea ignition switch from a Fiat 600, from the same era.

It's the same on the front, same ring. But has five connectors, and different type connector ends.

I was thinking I could just swap out the lock part, but the whole thing is probably fine.

I'd imagine there are two circuits for cutting off power and ignition, and the fifth is probably some electricity that stays on in the Fiat when the key is off?

This one doesn't have a an extra push for the starter. It's just on/off. The starter was a button (at least on some).
The old looking one is from the Rally.
The old looking one is from the Rally.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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Not So Moderator
VNB VSC 09C VMA VSX - vbc vmb
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UTC quote
Very cool.
How did you figure out who the ignition manufacture was? Was the one off the rallly stamped? And how did you source that fiat used the same make?
@orwell84 avatar
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Ossessionato
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Ossessionato
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UTC quote
I also sweat paint prep and using Ospho. I wipe everything down with acetone or panel wipe right before filler or primer. Wipe in one direction with a soaked rag with a dry one right behind it until there is nothing can be seen on the rag. I sometimes warm the metal with a heat gun as my garage can be a bit damp on summer mornings. I also swipe with auto body tack rags right before. They have a slightly sticky feel to them. I tend to use them less on primer coats that need to be sanded and more right before top coating.

Ospho can leave a residue if over wet but the wipe down should take care of it. Whatever is left between the seams will provide a light etching or galvanizing. Use nitrile gloves especially when handling metal before top coat. Oils from your hands or looking at it funny can cause adhesion problems. Every time I paint, some big crazy bug decides to kill itself right in the middle of my biggest panel.
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parallelogramerist
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parallelogramerist
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UTC quote
hjo wrote:
It's really important to seal this seam, along the inner fender. All the grime from the back wheel can get in there and into the frame.

I used clear silicone on this one, bc I powder coated the whole thing.

In that video, he seals the seams between coats of epoxy, it looks like. The sealer is under the paint. Which is what cars have.

He used the same one for the inner fender and panel seams, but masked the others off.

That video is so nice!
Be aware that if the silicon has any acetic acid in it, it can and will cause rust to eventually form.
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Ossessionato
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Ossessionato
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UTC quote
Any seam sealer made for auto body should be fine. I usually apply it between primer coats. I have had it in my bus for decades. There is also a 2k seam sealer that uses two tubes in a special gun with a nozzle that mixes them.
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Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Birdsnest wrote:
Very cool.
How did you figure out who the ignition manufacture was? Was the one off the rallly stamped? And how did you source that fiat used the same make?
The old ignition had a marking – "Sipea Ca 15"

I found a thread there on MV about it.

And searching for Sipea ignition, there were a bunch on ebay and parts sellers in Italy (This one came from Italy).

It's slightly different, but close.

Makes sense. Piaggio just sourced an Italian part that was available. Just used a few for the US market.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
From an MV thread. The ring is slightly wider on the Rally one.
From an MV thread. The ring is slightly wider on the Rally one.
This one threads on to the old one. the top is the same, and fits in to the place in the frame.
This one threads on to the old one. the top is the same, and fits in to the place in the frame.
The new ring fits on the old ignition.
The new ring fits on the old ignition.
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Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
orwell84 wrote:
I wipe everything down with acetone or panel wipe right before filler or primer.
I tried wiping the Ospho off with acetone. A bit comes off, but surprisingly not a lot. In the places where there were runs, and it was thick, it takes a lot of effort to remove.

That stuff is so strange. It's very tough, but just apply more and it all melts.
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Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
hjo wrote:
I tried wiping the Ospho off with acetone. A bit comes off, but surprisingly not a lot. In the places where there were runs, and it was thick, it takes a lot of effort to remove.

That stuff is so strange. It's very tough, but just apply more and it all melts.
That's strange. I caked it on the rust over here and just a wet rag wipe then a dry cloth after and the film was gone. I used half a container on the front fender and other assorted rust spots. Like wildly over did it. White stuff came off easily. I dunno. Maybe it has to do with temp when used?
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Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
I think the sandblasted texture might make it hold on more, too.

There isn't a while film, it's more like urethane type texture where it's thick.
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Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Running out of parts to find. That must mean it's time to get this thing finished!
This was zinc finish. I think that's how they originally came.
This was zinc finish. I think that's how they originally came.
I didn't have all these parts. These are BGM, and the quality looks very close to the original ones. Not sure whether to use the ones I'm missing or all. Do patina-ed adjusters have value as original?
I didn't have all these parts. These are BGM, and the quality looks very close to the original ones. Not sure whether to use the ones I'm missing or all. Do patina-ed adjusters have value as original?
I am so OCD. I found black case studs, bc the chrome ones didn't look original.
I am so OCD. I found black case studs, bc the chrome ones didn't look original.
Epoxy on one part.
Epoxy on one part.
The panels are very straight, but have this type of pitting on the tops. This should just need a tiny bit of filler.
The panels are very straight, but have this type of pitting on the tops. This should just need a tiny bit of filler.
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
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UTC quote
What epoxy is that? Did you shoot Direct-to-Metal (DTM) or something else?
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Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
That's is this Eastwood epoxy in a can.

Which is very expensive, and very messy. And doesn't cover a lot.

One can did my fender and one cowl.

The finish is a bit weird, bc I sanded it.

From Eastwood: "For direct-to-metal applications, our epoxy spray primer will Do the Job Right."

I didn't Ospho the cowls, bc they had no rust at all.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
⚠️ Last edited by hjo on UTC; edited 2 times
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Need to find a photo of what this should look like.

This bike had a front rack, and it pulled the legshield away from the brace.

I got it more pushed back in, but the shape is a bit off, and there's a bit of a gap.
Before
Before
After (hard to see here)
After (hard to see here)
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Getting ready to finish engine.

Is this right? I'm assuming it is, bc this was the Vespa 200 cylinder.

What do you use to lubricate the cylinder?

I was thinking of using two stroke oil, since it lives there.
The engine has three ports. And I hope that hole that goes through to the crank on the left is supposed to be there.
The engine has three ports. And I hope that hole that goes through to the crank on the left is supposed to be there.
But the cylinder just has one.
But the cylinder just has one.
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
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Lucky
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UTC quote
That hole in the first picture allows mixture to lubricate the bearing.

I don't know if that cylinder is right or not, but can you share some more pictures?

I'd expect it to have ports that more or less match the motor.
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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UTC quote
p200 cylinders have but one port
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
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Lucky
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UTC quote
sdjohn wrote:
p200 cylinders have but one port
Now I gotta go look at mine. I recall it having three undersized and strangely located ports.
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Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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UTC quote
one port on the cylinder gasket face. 6 ports inside the barrel.

looking down the barrel from the spigot end:

[gasket surface]

[port/window 6]

[port 9] [port 3]

then in a ring with the exhaust and one port opposing each other

[port 9] [exhaust 12] [port 3] [port 6]


[top of cylinder]
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Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
greasy125 wrote:
one port on the cylinder gasket face. 6 ports inside the barrel.

looking down the barrel from the spigot end:

[gasket surface]

[port/window 6]

[port 9] [port 3]

then in a ring with the exhaust and one port opposing each other

[port 9] [exhaust 12] [port 3] [port 6]


[top of cylinder]
Aah. That makes sense. You can see the ports inside. And then the induction is coming through the crank, too.

Is there a purpose for those cut-outs on the case that look like ports?

Those are outside the cylinder sleeve, so I guess they don't do anything?
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Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
One more thing done.

I definitely recommend the OEM Piaggio cylinder kit. It came all finished. Rings gapped, ports cleaned up. bolts right on.

It has very good compression!
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Such a clean engine.
Such a clean engine.
I chose this cotter pin method.
I chose this cotter pin method.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
I want to save this.

The original Vespa badge has an R stamped in it. I guess it means Ricambi.

The ones you can buy don't have.

I think it could be re-chromed. It's chrome, then paint, on aluminum, I think.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
This is one that Scooter Center calls OEM Quality. The letter shapes are different too.
This is one that Scooter Center calls OEM Quality. The letter shapes are different too.
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The Dude
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The repop Vespa badge is close, but not perfect. Save the original if you can. fhe "R" = registered trademark, and was only stamped on USA market vespas
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Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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Registered Trademark!

So happy to know that!
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Is the SIP road louder than the original pipe?

I like that it looks the same as the original one. And apparently makes the bike faster.

I love the sound of stock vespa engines, though.

And everyone I know who ever modified their engines ended up with really unreliable bikes.
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
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Lucky
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UTC quote
hjo wrote:
Is the SIP road louder than the original pipe?

I like that it looks the same as the original one. And apparently makes the bike faster.

I love the sound of stock vespa engines, though.

And everyone I know who ever modified their engines ended up with really unreliable bikes.
The SIP Road is not louder, I'm pretty sure, but it has a different tone to it. It's deeper than the stock exhausts.

As to reliability...if you want something that you can treat like a Honda (just add gas, change the oil once per year), then you need to get a Honda. These bikes will require more attention than a modern bike, but a well-built stock bike is good for thousands of miles between rebuilds with just a little bit of basic maintenance.

Modifying a motor doesn't makes it inherently less reliable, either. That's more a function of workmanship and engineering choices, and once you start making your own decisions, you lose the benefit of Vespa's own engineering choices. You just need to decide where you want to wind up in the Engineering Triangle (Reliable, Fast, Cheap: Pick Two). Stock Vespas were designed to be Reliable and Cheap .

What modifying the motor definitely does, though, is increase the maintenance required as parts wear more quickly than on a stock motor. You can overcome some of that by sourcing better/stronger parts, but there will be inevitable failures, sometimes at the worst possible time.

My most reliable bike is actually my GL, which has a super-tuned motor in it, but is also a first-kick-start bike 90% of the time--but I also watch it like a hawk for anything that might need attention, so I can catch it before the failure compounds.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
I've had three p200s that had been sitting for decades, all original, and just needed the basic carb cleaning, oil change, spark plug. And ran for 20,000 miles without ever having the case opened.

The people who race out bikes tend to abuse them too, though.

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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
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UTC quote
hjo wrote:
The people who race out bikes tend to abuse them too, though.


"abuse" is such a strong word. I prefer to think we're just "maximizing their potential." Razz emoticon
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
One little piece at a time.
Before
Before
After. I found some nice hardware for the clamp. Made in Italy. It's not exact, but my old ones were pretty chewed up.
After. I found some nice hardware for the clamp. Made in Italy. It's not exact, but my old ones were pretty chewed up.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Ready to reassemble.
Ready to reassemble.
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UTC quote
I love how original quality parts clean up.

Something to be said for the stock detuned power plants on these things. It's nice to be able to make it work by the book. It's a simple recipe for success. I think the tuning stuff is cool, but it can get quite complicated and be a lot of work.
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The Dude
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Polishing looks great Hjo!
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
orwell84 wrote:
I love how original quality parts clean up.

Something to be said for the stock detuned power plants on these things. It's nice to be able to make it work by the book. It's a simple recipe for success. I think the tuning stuff is cool, but it can get quite complicated and be a lot of work.
I've always been so impressed with bikes that sat for 30 years and start right up.

There's something so great about Vespa engineering.
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hjo wrote:
I've always been so impressed with bikes that sat for 30 years and start right up.

There's something so great about Vespa engineering.
One of the things that struck me about my vbb when I took it all apart was that there just wasn't much to it. The p series isn't that much more complex.
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The P series is less complex. The most fussy part of those bikes is the points/condenser.

The P fork is much simpler, too. Just a pivot and a shock.
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Notes for the welder.

Please do it right!!
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Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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UTC

parallelogramerist
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Hopefully whoever is doing the welding for you also knows bodywork. Welding is one art, bodywork is another art. Make sure to find someone who does both so that they will have a full understanding of what your final goal is.
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Molto Verboso
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@hjo avatar
Scattered remnants of (two!) 1974 Rallys
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1845
Location: San Francisco, CA
UTC quote
I hope so! I have a recommendation for a shop that is a welder/fabricator. But comes very highly recommended from someone whose opinion I trust.

He restores old Porsches, and also has an industrial business.

The alternative is like a shop that does high end restorations of cars. Or doing myself.
OP
@hjo avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Scattered remnants of (two!) 1974 Rallys
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1845
Location: San Francisco, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@hjo avatar
Scattered remnants of (two!) 1974 Rallys
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1845
Location: San Francisco, CA
UTC quote
Also giving the welder these photos.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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