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2009 Model S
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2009 s150 that ran like a top in May. I I am the 3rd owner but it amazingly has less than 1,000 miles on it - I got it with only 300 on it last summer!

Over the last month I replaced the rear wheel, installed a new racing variator, upgear kit, and increased the cylinder size to 190. Along the way I changed the oil filter, drive belt, air filter, etc. Even went so far as to repaint the drive belt cover and the lower rear fairings after removing those nasty reflectors...

Mechanically everything went pretty smoothly but now that I have it all back together - it wont start? All fuses look good, the battery is fully charged, the starter relay clicks, and when I hit the start button there is 12 amps going to the starter motor - but it doesn't start? I hit the button and all I hear is the relay - nothing more... Any ideas or a direction you can point me in?

I am dying to get back on the road - this is pretty frustrating, I have to admit.
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@nightwing avatar
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UTC quote
Try tapping the starter motor with a block of wood.
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NightWing wrote:
Try tapping the starter motor with a block of wood.
Wait, what? Is the idea to dislodge the shaft inside the starter to get it to engage?
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@jkj-fz6 avatar
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jaybob wrote:
Wait, what? Is the idea to dislodge the shaft inside the starter to get it to engage?
It could jostle stuck brushes so they make contact with the rotor, I believe.
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JKJ-FZ6 wrote:
It could jostle stuck brushes so they make contact with the rotor, I believe.
Sounds like a solid plan!! Will report back.
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jaybob wrote:
Sounds like a solid plan!! Will report back.
If that doesn't help check that the battery terminals and ground wire connections are clean and tight.
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JKJ-FZ6 wrote:
If that doesn't help check that the battery terminals and ground wire connections are clean and tight.
To be clear, are we speaking about the ground connection to the starter itself?
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jaybob wrote:
To be clear, are we speaking about the ground connection to the starter itself?
Actually, any power or ground connection: battery terminals, ground to frame, power and ground to starter, starter relay.... I'd start with the battery because it's most accessible and probably most likely to be the issue.
@juan_orhea avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
S150 '09, Beo 500ie '08
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@juan_orhea avatar
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UTC quote
That's Penn Yan! I have the same scooter, and rode it round trip from White Plains to Ithaca over back roads in fall 2019. I'm not sure I would do that again, but I am glad I did it once.

For your situation, consider removing the starter motor from the transmission (2 bolts), keeping it wired up, and goosing the starter switch to see how it spins on its own. It should spin like the dickens and not make a whining or squealing noise. If it seems challenged, just buy a replacement from scooterpartsco. Don't bother disassembling it to try to fix anything internally - it will never go back together properly. A problematic starter is my third guess for your issue, but it's the easiest to check and is good information to rule out, so I mention it first.

If it's working properly, take the transmission cover off again and pull out the Bendix gear to ensure that it's working properly and is mounted squarely to engage the teeth of the starter motor and the fixed pulley without binding. It's supposed to be lightly greased on the two spindles and lightly oiled inside. My best guess for your problem is that you have a jam here somewhere, considering that you replaced so many of these parts. If the Bendix is hosed it's also pretty cheap to replace, about $25.

My third guess is that your battery may be showing a full charge, but is old and isn't able to provide enough power to turn over the upgraded-displacement engine. Try jumpstarting it from a car battery, with or without the car attached, but with the car engine off so as not to potentially overwhelm the Vespa's electrics.
@attila avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
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@attila avatar
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UTC quote
Juan, by Bendix gear you mean the shaft with gear electromagnetically operated by the solenoid?
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S150 '09, Beo 500ie '08
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UTC quote
No - well, maybe. On the little Vespas the "Bendix" gear is a centrifugally-actuated gear pack. One of its gears gets spun by the starter motor, and it flings out a different gear with tapered teeth that engages straight teeth in the fixed pulley of the variator. This turns over the engine until it starts. When the starter is no longer activated, the gear with tapered teeth springs back and retracts from the teeth of the fixed pulley.

https://scooterpartsco.com/ricambi/080-oem/starter-bendix-for-vespa-lx150

If the gear pack isn't set properly in its mounting holes, one of which is in the transmission cover, it won't work. If it's clogged with grime, or if the spring is broken, or if the teeth are stripped, it won't work. But it is actually quite robust for a $20 part.

("Bendix" is the name of an old parts company, and the word now means different things in different industries. The company also manufactured an instrument with fancy brass levers used on many Navy ships to indicate desired engine speed, and the logo was placed just beyond the "ahead full" indication. When returning home from a long deployment it was typical to request that the engines be set at "ahead Bendix" speed - even if there was no Bendix logo to be seen.)
@duane1 avatar
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UTC quote
If you take the variator cover and vatiator off, you can pull the bendix and clean it with brake cleaner. Then a dab of grease on the shift.
⚠️ Last edited by duane1 on UTC; edited 1 time
OP
UTC

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UTC quote
NightWing wrote:
Try tapping the starter motor with a block of wood.
Unfortunately this method did not yield any results. I think I have to pull the starter now and bench test it. It's perplexing/ vexing that there was no issue prior to the upgrades so I keep going back thinking I must've buggered something up in the process.
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UTC quote
Juan_ORhea wrote:
That's Penn Yan! I have the same scooter, and rode it round trip from White Plains to Ithaca over back roads in fall 2019. I'm not sure I would do that again, but I am glad I did it once.

For your situation, consider removing the starter motor from the transmission (2 bolts), keeping it wired up, and goosing the starter switch to see how it spins on its own. It should spin like the dickens and not make a whining or squealing noise. If it seems challenged, just buy a replacement from scooterpartsco. Don't bother disassembling it to try to fix anything internally - it will never go back together properly. A problematic starter is my third guess for your issue, but it's the easiest to check and is good information to rule out, so I mention it first.

If it's working properly, take the transmission cover off again and pull out the Bendix gear to ensure that it's working properly and is mounted squarely to engage the teeth of the starter motor and the fixed pulley without binding. It's supposed to be lightly greased on the two spindles and lightly oiled inside. My best guess for your problem is that you have a jam here somewhere, considering that you replaced so many of these parts. If the Bendix is hosed it's also pretty cheap to replace, about $25.

My third guess is that your battery may be showing a full charge, but is old and isn't able to provide enough power to turn over the upgraded-displacement engine. Try jumpstarting it from a car battery, with or without the car attached, but with the car engine off so as not to potentially overwhelm the Vespa's electrics.
I feel like you should win something both for your post detail and being able to identify small towns in New York!!

I'm fixing to follow your post instructions next, thank you. Honestly I'm not looking forward to pulling the engine out again though - I was sooo close to riding agin.
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Molto Verboso
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Occasionally I emerge from my mental troll-cave of dark snark and puerile petulance. Enjoy it while it lasts. The word "Keuka" was a dead giveaway. (Fun fact: I have a second cousin who was apparently pretty hot stuff in high school, and won a Finger Lakes beauty pageant. For a year she proudly wore the title of "Miss Big Flats.")

No need to pull the engine for any of this!

Nor do you need to remove the starter motor wiring to test it - just give it a zap with the starter switch once you've pulled out the two bolts and the starter's gear is clear of obstruction.

I can't remember if you *have* to take off the variator to get at the Bendix. You might, from the variator side, or maybe it can be coaxed out from the starter side if you have the starter motor out.
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Woah, I had no idea I was speaking to someone related to "Miss Big Flats", I think that's kind of a big deal. Here in Penn Yan we celebrate a similar ritual, but they're crowned as the "Buckwheat Princess". Not sure which is a higher rank or 1st inline for the throne?

Thanks for the advice on the motor, I'll report back when I have a chance to work on it.
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Molto Verboso
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Molto Verboso
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I know, it's a lot to process.

Traditionally, the Buckwheat Princess, Bath Babe, Miss Big Flats, Modern Miss Becky Thatcher (from Elmira), and the Mare of Horseheads (mare - not mayor), Jello-wrestle for the title of Finger Queen of the Southern Tier.

This event is adjudicated by the winner of Ithaca's "Queen Penelope" competition, which is typically a drag event. But most attendees agree, she's gorges.
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Juan_ORhea wrote:
Occasionally I emerge from my mental troll-cave of dark snark and puerile petulance. Enjoy it while it lasts. The word "Keuka" was a dead giveaway. (Fun fact: I have a second cousin who was apparently pretty hot stuff in high school, and won a Finger Lakes beauty pageant. For a year she proudly wore the title of "Miss Big Flats.")

No need to pull the engine for any of this!

Nor do you need to remove the starter motor wiring to test it - just give it a zap with the starter switch once you've pulled out the two bolts and the starter's gear is clear of obstruction.

I can't remember if you *have* to take off the variator to get at the Bendix. You might, from the variator side, or maybe it can be coaxed out from the starter side if you have the starter motor out.
Yup, Bad Starter... thank you again for the direction.
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So with a new starter on its way some guys in our shop set about seeing what happened and potentially rebuilding the 12 yr old starter with less than 1,000 miles on it. Come to find out one of the brushes was stuck and the housing had a crack in it. I'm wondering if between the stuck brush and the increased demand from installing the 190cc Malossi kit if it just didn't have enough strength to kick the engine over?
@attila avatar
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UTC quote
jaybob wrote:
So with a new starter on its way some guys in our shop set about seeing what happened and potentially rebuilding the 12 yr old starter with less than 1,000 miles on it. Come to find out one of the brushes was stuck and the housing had a crack in it. I'm wondering if between the stuck brush and the increased demand from installing the 190cc Malossi kit if it just didn't have enough strength to kick the engine over?
If so, you'll find out again in a little while ...
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
That seems like a reasonable explanation for the issue. The larger displacement does take more oomph to compress, and an impaired brush could prevent it from providing said oomph. How much more complicated a reason would you be looking for?

Does the shop view the starter as worth rebuilding? Maybe there is a tool for this but I used carefully-sized broken toothpicks and dental floss to position the brushes so I could slide the housing back over them, then yanked on the floss to get the toothpicks out. This took four hands and an hour to accomplish, at which point I'd knocked a couple of chips out of the brushes. The starter then functioned, but noisily. There was no way I was going to put it back in.

This was unfortunate as there had been absolutely nothing wrong with the starter to begin with. I had disassembled it to clean it, since it was out of the scooter.

Lessons learned: don't wake a sleeping baby. And, I think, that the starter is not really rebuildable.
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My thought is for the $65 it costs for a new starter, there isn't a lot of high side in the rebuild and potential future failure? From my perspective, I was just more interested in the failure mode.
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The new starter did the trick and we are back on the road! After 10 miles of "break-in" I am testing out the modifications that I did (Racing Variator, 190cc Kit, Upgear). Im still having some issue getting up to 55 going uphill but I think it is "better" - around town it is definitely zippier and the acceleration from 30-40 has noticeably improved.

Thanks for all of the helpful input!
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