Modern Vespa

Okay, here we are. I thought about presenting this to the hive mind here. I have a frostproof outdoor faucet I've been messing around with (i.e. rather ignoring, mostly) for years. I've finally gotten to the point that I want to replace it....God knows how long it took to realize that it wasn't accessible by putting a hole in a nicely finished wall, but inside a utility closet.

I thought that once I found the joint I was home free, but this sucker won't budge. I'm making an assumption that it's a threaded joint from the hose bib into the copper fitting, but an adjustable and pipe wrench won't budge it. Tried heating the joint already. I swear it's soldered together. Anyway, I had the choice of going back to the hardware store with the less-than-knowledgeable current crew, or picking some brains here. MV is usually more helpful and far more entertaining if nothing else.

So, suggestions? Have at it with the wrenches again? Get a BFW? Just cut the pipe and patch it together later? Plumbing clearly isn't my forte, but I don't think I'm in over my head yet..... and yeah, the water's already shut off...

My wife will insist I'm the last person you should ask about plumbing -- but if I were doing it I would cut the copper pipe and patch in a new fitting.

That would be an easy one for me. Cut it out. Get the appropriate copper fittings and a new hose bib. The hose bibs are available in several lengths. Probably get a longer one because you're cutting out a section unless you have copper pipe laying around. You need a torch, a can of Mapp gas, lead free Solder, & flux. A pipe cutter is a must. Don't burn the house down! Or just hire a plumber. It's kind of fun, I'd do it if I were close.

TURN OFF WATER FIRST

I like that disclaimer. It does seem like a good option vs. torquing around on relatively soft metal. If if were galvanized pipe I'd have at 'er without a qualm....

Hey, c'mon, Utah's not THAT far!

I've got the cutter, propane torch and solder. Not all that proficient with it but daring (read:stupid) enough to solder rather than use Shark fittings.

As for burning the house down....stay tuned for a new post about fire insurance...

I vote for cutting as well.

But IANAP.

Hey.... You've got the tools. Take your time. Shut off water and drain to lowest spot. Cut. Prepare by cleaning & de burring both ends. Get it clean & shiny. I like to use an asbestos cloth behind. I want a progress report.

Okay, that's 3 for cutting, 0 alternatives.

Glad it's late or I'd have one of y'all holding my beer.

It's not like one of those jobs that a messed up DIY attempt will triple the work for a plumber. As long as I have enough space for a cutter it's a pretty short path to getting it together again.

If you don't have room use a hack saw or sawzall.
You're lucky you didn't mangle the pipe cause it looks like it's sweat.
Have wrench will travel!

I've done lots of repairs on stuff like this. I've plumbed houses and done lots of retrofitting. You have no choice but to cut it off and retrofit a new piece in. You'll never get that apart no matter what you do. Attach a length of pipe to make up for the cut pipe.

You might want to get a plumber if you've never done any soldering. It may save you a lot of heartache and hassle. But if you do want to DIY, this is what I'd do....
- I'd cut the pipe and leave it as long as possible but at least 3/4" away from any fittings, longer if you can. Sometimes solder can end up inside the pipe when they originally soldered it and you'd like to avoid that.
- In order to resolder to that pipe, you have to to clean it up so it's shiny copper again where you are going to fit the new pipe. Solder won't stick to oxidized copper. You clean it up with wire brushes or sandpaper. That pipe is pretty heavily oxidized so it is going to take some effort. You might be able to get a wire brush in a drill and clean it - that'd be my first and preferred approach. In fact, depending on the situation, you may want to clean the pipe up before you cut it.
- To cut it, you might be able to use a short pipe cutter like this because its up against the wall. It you have one, you could also use a powered multitool like this to cut it. Virtually every manufacturer offers these. Cordered versions are less expensive than cordless tho the Ryobi is pretty cheap.
- Now your ready to put a coupling and the new hose bib on that pipe. There's lots of Youtube videos on soldering copper pipe. Get some spare fittings some extra pipe to practice before doing it. You have to get a small wire brush designed to fit into the fittings to clean its inner surface. The key to soldering is to make sure you use flux on all parts of the pipe and fitting that will be soldered. When you apply the torch, apply it only to the fitting and let it heat the pipe. Apply the torch to the far side of the fitting away from where the pipe enters. It doesn't take too much solder but most people apply too. That won't hurt, you just get a glob of solder on the fitting. Don't worry about it, it won't hurt. When your done, wipe the residual flux off the pipe and fitting with a rag.
- I suggest putting the hose bib on last. You don't want to melt any non metal parts that might be inside it. I don't know anything about cold-weather hose bibs and special prep for them.

In fact, maybe a better idea is to sell the house and move to a place that is more habitable where you don't have to worry about freezing😎.

Hope all that helps! Don't hesitate to ask if you have Qs.
Miguel

Last edited by Miguel on Tue, 22 Jun 2021 12:28:47 +0000; edited 1 time

When soldering, remember it is the hot pipe that is supposed to melt the solder, not the flame.

Get a plumber.

Exactly.
Miguel

You will never be able to unscrew it because the joint is welded with bronze and borax ... To see it it looks like this.
Cut it out and buy a "quick joint" with conical ends because this is the only way you will have a perfect seal.

According to a plumber friend of mine, the 'push-on' connectors for copper are quite reliable, albeit more expensive. So if you can clean off the surface and find the right connectors, perhaps no need to solder. Very definitely the solution for copper is almost always to cut it and insert a coupling. And you can 'pre-assemble' the valve body and junction on the bench, and solder the coupling in place.

'Sweating' copper is no big deal, but you may want to practice a bit with scraps. Want to heat the pipe/joint, not the solder, and assure that the solder flows completely around the joint. The copper needs to be well cleaned and fluxed before assembly. And you need to avoid overheating the solder as well. Once it starts flowing, remove the heat. Probably want a MAPP gas torch with a wide tip, rather than a pinpoint flame. I'm sure there are tons of Youtube videos.

Opinions vary on whether to remove the valve core before soldering in order to avoid overheating the sealing washer. I'd vote to remove it, or at least make sure the valve is open so the washer is not touching the seat.

I presume a plumber will charge you $150 or more to show up and fix it. You can buy a lot of tools and practice for that, if you are inclined. And once you know how, you'll never need to use it again.

One more thing about soldering, the pipe MUST be empty of water, otherwise you'll never get the pipe hot enough to melt the solder.

Miguel

It looks like you will need a close quarters tubing cutter because it looks like it is close to a wall

Another type of connection that I don't think anyone has mentioned is a compression fitting. It has three parts. You slide the nut onto the tube then a brass compression sleeve that looks like a ring. Insert the tubing into the body of the fitting and tighten the nut until you feel the ring compress onto the tube. No heat required.

The push on connectors are good too and even easier but they have a rubber seal that can deteriorate but that would be years down the road.

Good luck.

That is what plumbers are for.

Of course, have you seen their bills lately?

Wow!

Good luck with the cutting and soldering.

Bill

^^THIS^^

Cut it and use sharkbite fittiings and a PEX pipe. No soldering needed.
As for frost free pipes I find don't always do the job. Better to put a ball valve with a release drain.
I just installed a hose connection in the front of a neighbors brownstone.
Used a bunch of sharkbite valves and PEX pipe to make the connections and now he has a garden hose in the front and when winter comes he can drain the pipe and shut it off.

Umm, yeah. My DIY basement shower project that went pear-shaped cost me about $5K by the time they were out of there. It started with a smallish mess I'd created but I', not going to own all of it. Tree roots, backwards tile installation and a good clog didn't help.

I figure if I pull it off it's a couple hundred in my pocket. If not, well, you'll have been entertained and use me as a cautionary tale.

Read my post, it's a shining example ...

[NSR] What's Pissing you off Today? II (Page 48)

I have installed 3 outdoor faucets and repaired inside pipes using Sharkbite fittings. They work on copper pipe and PEX pipe. They have a 25 year warranty.

One of the outdoor faucets I recently installed was a frostless unit made by Sharkbite that was already equipped with a Sharkbite fitting. It was a quarter turn valve which my wife requested. Great products.

Good choice! I was involved with the product design! (Well, an earlier version, anyway.)

Your guess is correct. The male coupling is soldered to the pipe and the female socket is soldered to the other pipe.
Usually the male-female joint would be done with PTFE plumbers tape, but I can clearly see that has been soldered too.
Cut and replace is your only option.
You could use soldered fittings or compression fittings.
If you are not familiar with soldered joints, I would suggest compression fittings as you only need experience using spanners. Against the wall, you would likely need to use a hacksaw to cut the pipe and fine sandpaper to remove burrs to receive the fittings.

(PS: I am not a licensed plumber, but I did do all the water piping for various additions to my home over the 37 years I lived there...)

I'm with Sledge. Get a plumber. The money hurts for a little while, but the job will be done in minutes.

Well where's the fun in that?

I couldn't sweat a joint to save my wife's life. I tried.

Having sweated more joints than I care to think about, I am now firmly in the sharkbite/pex camp with nightwing and baba. Sooo simple and carefree. My first sharkbite I cried tears of joy. Good luck however you decide.

I seem to have this masochistic tendency to ignore that small inner voice of doubt, forge ahead and then kick myself for my hubris. OTOH, the thrill of final victory and a short memory makes it all worthwhile.

I know you all probably barely slept last night wondering how things are going.... I wound up wishing I had Miguel's pipe cutter, but as it was more exploratory than final I got by with a hacksaw (though why use a hand tool when a nifty power tool will work too?). Of course I may have another challenge extricating the faucet end (they'd added cedar siding at some point after it was installed), but once that's out......

Shark is tempting, but I seem to like a challenge (see above)

Copper/solder isn't a challenge for you , maybe more work, sharkbite is a solid practical solution. Maybe it is about 20% more in cost than the traditional copper solder solution, though the outcomes are going to be the same when done right. One good thing about sharkbite fittings is they are editable without a lot of work while still providing solid longevity, with copper/solder if you have to edit it you have more work to deal with .

Remember, your work will be inspected by the Yooper team come July!

Bring your swimsuit!

Gotta remember to disconnect the garden hose so the "frostproof" faucet can drain. Never seen one fail when that was done Seen plenty that failed when the hose was left connected, the faucet stayed full of water, and froze.

The mistake is to put the faucet in a horizontal position, even if the condensate has been drain ed, it can break it anyway; it must be placed vertically with the outlet downwards and a general tap in a sheltered position (inside a room) to exclude all external exits in case of repairs or winter daining.

Well, I think we're done. I forgot to post and ask someone to hold my beer. Decided to solder, as I already had the torch, solder and miscellany, and if nothing else to have a second chance in my life to practice.

I had this "all or nothing" apprehension, despite everything being prepared and in place, and had to kick myself to just go for it. First off, I didn't burn the house down. Did put a metal shield in place as one of the joints was right next to wood. Secondly no leaks! Aesthetics, well, good enough, especially since it's buried in the back of a basement closet.

Thanks for all the input, support and comments. You're a good bunch.

BTW if anyone wonders about that weird joint on the left, they offered a sillcock with that piece on the end sized to accept the 1/2 inch pipe I was using....so avoided buying another connector.

BTW, watched a couple of YouTube videos to polish my skills....one of the "pros" was pronouncing solder ("sod-er") as "sold-er." Wonder what's up with that?


From this.....

To this.


Last edited by fledermaus on Sat, 26 Jun 2021 21:38:09 +0000; edited 1 time

I knew you could do it!

Nice. Glad you found a new career path.

"Half-assed Plumber"

Or as dad liked to say, "Jack of all trades, master of none."

Yes, why is it 'Merkins pronounce solder as 'sodder'?