Modern Vespa

Has anyone done a coolant flush on the new HPE? About a month ago, just before I joined MV, I screwed up and topped it off with the wrong type. Now I want to get it all out of there, but I notice that the bleed valve on my HPE is different from the ones in online videos. There is no rubber cap, and no nut to loosen. There is a single 3mm allen screw. Does it function the same as the old one? There's no nipple to connect a hose. Do you wrap a towel around it to catch the coolant or let it run through? The bike is only 3 months old, so do you think it would be ok to re-use the big O ring? What else do I need to know and be aware of? I have watched several videos on YouTube and am competent with tools, but this will be my first work on an engine. All help is greatly appreciated!

I was hoping some of you experienced mechanics could look at the pictures above and confirm that the small screw is the bleed screw and that it functions in the same way as the nut on the older version. I have watched videos on doing the coolant flush, but I don't want to jump in and start turning this screw without knowing for sure that's where the air is bled out of the system.

I found a complete parts catalog online. It shows an exploded view of every part of the bike. Part #15 is the bleed screw as I thought. The only difference being that the picture shows it slotted and mine is a 3mm Allen head.

Glad you found it! I guess there just isn't much experience here yet with this style of bleed screw.

Thanks berto. I have been feeling pretty much all alone on this but I understand the reason. 👍

Don't know what you topped off with but I did a lot of googling and found that the coolant that my newer Toyota RAV4 uses lined up with just about every certification i could find for what was recommended for the Vespa. Same color, too, fwiw. That's what I've been using.

This is what I used:

https://maximausa.com/i-30498251-coolanol-64oz.html?locale=en

It says it safely mixes with most OEM glycol-based anti-freeze/coolants

It's that "most" that worries me. What do you think?

I was using some certifications that were listed (five or six digit series numbers as I recall) as well as the verbiage. Like you, the "most" is what gives pause... OAT is hard to pin down on the jugs or on websites from brand to brand. Sort of like looking for oil certifications... gets confusing. I personally feel comfortable with what I was using in the Toyota (their brand). Motor manufacturers (the major world-wide names) all seem to be moving in the same direction with metals and materials used in water pumps, sleeves, etc. But I'd stop short of recommending anyone else take my word for it

I sent an email to Maxima USA giving the specs of the OEM coolant from the manual. Hopefully they can shed some light on whether their Coolanol will mix properly with the OEM. I am waiting to see what they say but am prepared to do the flush.

Grouper, Coolanol isn't recommended for mixing with standard OAT. It also has silicates in it at a low level and that's not even recommended for any Vespa. Vespa Motosport did say it can only be used after a complete flush. I'd actually question that too as there doesn't seem to be any evidence that it's a normal OAT coolant. Too risky to use it in my opinion and we wouldn't use that in our workshop in Vespas without a lot more information. Do post what you find out please. In any event, there are lots of regular OAT coolants out their that meet all the specs your Vespa needs.

And yes that screw in the photo is the bleed screw. Sorry didn't see your post.

A strange place to stick a purge valve ...

Not really Attila, it's the highest point on the engine for the air to escape and it's in the same place as the previous GTS models. But it does look slightly different to the earlier bleed valve.

Thanks for that Stromrider. I'm going to flush it. The scooter is only 3 months old; do you think it will be ok to re-use the O ring under the water pump cover? I haven't opened it up yet and don't have a replacement.

I'd be very grateful if you'd email that to me, so it can go on the website to let other members have access to it.

I will be glad to. It is 13 megabytes so I will wait till later tonight to email it. We have a very slow DSL connection here. I'm going to visit my sister in Atlanta for a few days and I think it will send better there.

Went back and checked... my Toyota Coolant is OAT and silicate-free. Sorry, couldn't remember the details earlier...

how much did you add? should be 2 liters in the system, I don't think a top off should do much if any damage to the system.

Yes. Not sure of their life cycle, but I think you're good for a while, probably a few cycles.

It wasn't much. The level was just below the min. mark and I filled it up to the max. mark. I really appreciate your input.

Thanks fledermaus, I am in Atlanta this week. I think I'm going to see if the local Vespa dealer will sell me one just to be sure.

I heard from scooterwest this afternoon. Robot says " It works differently, there is a pair of bleeders. I'll do a video soon."

Sure enough, I just downloaded the workshop manual from AF1 Racing and here is a screenshot showing both bleed screw locations.

Funny thing is (well not really so funny) I had contacted two other Vespa dealers, the one where I bought the scooter and the one where I got the 600 mile service done, and neither of them were able to give me this information.

Likely you were not talking to the one tech who went through the factory training for servicing the HPE. Hopefully there IS one tech at each shop who has gone through the factory training.

Yes it can! Depends how much has gone in and how long it's in there. Silicates attack the water pump and seals and starts to thicken the coolant into a nasty radiator blocking substance when mixed with OAT. And all the time corrosion starts everywhere inside the water jacket. If it's only been in a few weeks and not much was added in the first instance, as long as the motor is flushed a couple of times and refilled with the proper stuff, the motor will be ok. but flushing doesn't always get everything out and the corrosion can continue. Even smaller amounts of the wrong coolant is bad news but in this instance I don't think Coolanol is the worst culprit for causing this especially as it hasn't been in very long. The main issue here is we don't seem to be able to understand properly what is in Coolanol. We know from Scootewest you cannot mix it with OAT but I've not seen much information about it anywhere so it's a risky one to use for me at least.

EDIT: Page 98 of the owners manual states to only use an OAT coolant in the HPE. OAT is an ethylene glycol coolant with organic acid inhibitors. It also states the specs required. There are plenty of OAT coolants that meet this spec. Colour is not the important factor here but I tend to stick with red or pink myself. But other colours are available.

Interesting, then a super flush it is!

I use G12 (US) or G30 (Europe) Coolant

Either of these coolants are 'PINK' ethylene glycol-based antifreeze/coolant specifically developed for use in any European vehicle requiring a silicate/phosphate-free formulation.

They contain high-quality organic acid technology (OAT) corrosion inhibitors and are free of borate, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate, silicate and amines chemicals.

Note: Here's an archived Modern Vespa Wiki forum article on Antifreeze > Modern Vespa: Antifreeze Wiki

Also some fun facts from http://sancarlosradiator.com/antifreeze_coolant.htm

How much distilled water should I flush through the system? Is 2 gallons enough?

2 gallon = 7.57082 Liters and the system only holds 2 liters, so that's about 3 1/2 flushes.

If it were me personally, I'd prob just flush with G12 coolant and not even use distilled water by > Drain > Refill > Run > Drain > Refill > bleed and call it a day.

I mean you just topped off 50-100 Milliliters at most which is 2-3% of the 2 liters in the system, not like it is going to cause the system to fail any time soon.

I changed a 2009 GTS coolant last year with 20,000 milles where the coolant was never changed ever, only topped off with whatever coolant was around and the system was completely blood orange (rust). Did 4 flushes to get it all out of there, but prob system damage was done and no way to recover. No other problems than color of the coolant on the entire scoot and that beast is still running fine with no leaks or overheating to this day. They are built pretty strong and if the seal or pump fails its fairly easy to replace.

Thanks to everyone for your contributions. I am feeling a lot more confident about this situation. Unfortunately I am stuck in Atlanta for a few more days helping my sister after her hip replacement surgery yesterday. This morning I bought a gallon of Peak Global lifetime 50/50 coolant and a gallon of distilled water. As soon as I get back home I'm going to wash out all the old stuff out and fill it with the OAT.

I have really felt like a dumbass for topping it off with the wrong coolant. But I guess that's what they call experience. Now I will have a little. I wish I had found this forum a month earlier. Thanks again.

No need to feel like a dumb-ass! It's one of the most confusing topics going. There are so many different types of engine coolant all saying they are suitable for your motor, and in reality, none of them are or even mix with the original stuff even though some of the manufacturers say they will. Even with a full flush most of them are not suitable for our motors. Main thing is always stick to the type recommended in the owners manual and you won't go wrong. Well done!

UPDATE:
I did the coolant flush this morning with no issues. I have to say that the two bleed screws were both EXTREMELY tight. I started getting worried when they wouldn't break free. I thought I was going to bend the allen wrench. I think the new design will alleviate the problem that some people had with over-tightening the bleed valve. It seems to be just a screw bottoming out in a threaded hole...not much chance of stripping it out if a little care is used. I did not tighten them back as tight as they were, and they are not leaking. The manual specifies 3 nm. I just made them moderately tight.

If it was cold, you overfilled it.

You can use anywhere from zero gallons to as much distilled water you can buy at the local Piggly Wiggly and the results will be the same. Pick a number, that's the right amount.
You have owned this bike for less than four months and are flushing the cooling system because you overfilled it by about four ounces and some complete stranger convinced you that the coolant you used will destroy the engine? If you bought local, I'm guessing Seneca. Marrieta does a pretty good job of convincing customers not to follow the advice of whackjobs on the internet.
These things are meant to be serviced at certain intervals, and the more you mess with it for no good reason, the higher the odds are that you will break it. There isn't a certified Vespa technician alive who would have flushed the cooling system on his/her/their own bike based on the story you told. And no matter how they come across, you're not communicating with factory certified techs here. So how did you come to the conclusion that the people you bothered at work, who receive regular training and service bulletins from the company that manufactured your bike, are all wrong and why did you feel compelled to contact so many, once you realized they weren't going to say what you wanted to hear? Given what a racket so many bottom feeders think dealerships are, didn't any of them tell you to have it towed in for the 100 gallon enginema with turboflush? Which is really hiding your bike for a couple hours while they go get liquored up and learn new service techniques at the bar, then spray the water pump with a garden hose and give you a bill for $1200.

Motovista, give the guy a break! He's obviously informed himself better than you. After spending lots of money on a nice shiny new Vespa he's concerned he topped up with the wrong coolant, Coolanol. Scooterwest has confirmed mixing it with the original coolant is not correct and Coolanol can only be used after a complete flush. There is also uncertainty about Coolanols exact ingredients and classifications as it apears to have some level of silicates in it, not recommended for Vespas.

In view of the amount added to his bike he's acted completely correctly. In case you haven't seen the results of mixing different types of coolant together, even small amounts, I can tell you it ain't pretty. All the techs I know would do a flush under these circumstances to be sure it's ok. That includes me. After all, the warranty on the bike will be void if the bike has been topped off with the wrong coolant.

It's not the first time you've shown lack of knowledge concerning coolant which for someone in the motor trade is...well folks can judge for themselves. If you are giving advice it's best to know what you are talking about. You've even told folks that OAT doesn't wear out or need changing in a GTS at two years! Just look back at some of your posts on the subject. Jeezz...

No he didn't!

In Italy we have a saying: "no one is born already learned!"
And this is the premise.
Then ... having the humility to ask for advice is the second rule and you must not be ashamed in this, it is a gift.
Whenever as a boy I helped my grandfather in some work and I was wrong even though I could ask for advice, he gave me a slap on the back of the head and said to me: "if you don't know, don't do it, ask for advice from those who know".
And you shouldn't feel stupid, never ...
Experience is gained over time and you don't learn it from books.

coolant overflow tanks are see through for a reason. with a quick glance you can tell if coolant is low or contaminated. if you see rust or other contaminates its time to flush and replace. there is no such thing as wrong coolant or coolant that doesnt mix with another coolant. and there is no such thing as unseen contaminates that will harm your water pump seal.

when common sense fails

but it is entertaining! thanks for that!

Me personally, I wouldn't have done the flush, but new bike (much like a new house) the owner is concerned about the smallest detail and there's a price for piece of mind.

Ride it for 2k-3k miles (live in it for a year) and most little stuff will be like meh.

Changing the coolant every 2 years more important than what goes in for sure, but would stick to the G12 since it's readily available and on the same shelf.

WRONG!

From the service manual:

Please learn how these things work. The minimum level in the reservoir is where the coolant level should be when the bike is cold. Coolant expands when it gets warm and reaches the maximum mark on the reservoir. If you fill a cold engine do the coolant level is at the maximum level, when the bike warms up, the coolant exceeds the max level. So yes, he did.

The container is called an "expansion tank" for a specific reason ...