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Hi all

So, my teenager went off to collect her ET2 from her dads this afternoon. She then called to say that things had gone a little wrong.

The flow as I understand it was:

- Scooter started fine
- She drove around 300m, and it 'didn't sound right'
- turned round and shut it down, wouldn't restart on elec.

I went over and had a look, and there's clearly something starter related that's causing the issue, but my concern is that it was being driven when things went wrong. When trying to start on the elec, it spins, and sounds a little rattly, as if it's JUST clipping the gearings. When trying to move the kick start, it's 'notchy', again, as if something isn't quite engaged. Neither seem to turn the engine over.

So..... question here, is whether I even mess about diagnosing something, or look at just buying a part - and if so, what! Her dad's not my biggest fan, and repair work would need to be done over there but I'm sure he'd get over it, but wouldn't make it the most comfortable and I wouldn't want to rush.

I'm assuming that there's something in the start train that's not engaging, but what? And why would it 'fail' on the move?

THoughts all?

L
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bendix is not kicking in all the way/jammed. How old is the battery?
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Have battery checked
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My first thought is the battery needs charging (or replacement).
Same thing happened to me on a couple of scooters.
Replaced the batteries, then they started up just fine.
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Tierney wrote:
bendix is not kicking in all the way/jammed. How old is the battery?
The battery is only a few months old and has been fine to date. It started the bike OK before she drove off, and initially all was well. Can the bendix 're-engage'?
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Madison Sully wrote:
My first thought is the battery needs charging (or replacement).
Same thing happened to me on a couple of scooters.
Replaced the batteries, then they started up just fine.
Hi

What would be occurring if this was the battery? Why would a battery issue affect the kick start too?

L
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Laurencechapman wrote:
Hi

What would be occurring if this was the battery? Why would a battery issue affect the kick start too?

L
Insufficient current to spin the bendix fast enough for it to get thrown into the starter gear.
Bad battery would not affect kick start.
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Madison Sully wrote:
Insufficient current to spin the bendix fast enough for it to get thrown into the starter gear.
Bad battery would not affect kick start.
Thats helpful. Thanks. So would a bad bendix affect both the elec and kick starts?
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Laurencechapman wrote:
Thats helpful. Thanks. So would a bad bendix affect both the elec and kick starts?
No. Bendix isn't used by the kick start mechanism.
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Madison Sully wrote:
No. Bendix isn't used by the kick start mechanism.
Ok, so what could be going on that is preventing the kick start mechanism from engaging correctly as well as the electric start?

L
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Laurencechapman wrote:
Ok, so what could be going on that is preventing the kick start mechanism from engaging correctly as well as the electric start?

L
Either two different issues, or something is bound up in your transmission.
At this point I'd try to start it by either charging the battery for a time, or jumping with a known-good car battery in parallel with your own. If that failed, I'd remove the transmission cover and get a look around in there.
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Madison Sully wrote:
Either two different issues, or something is bound up in your transmission.
At this point I'd try to start it by either charging the battery for a time, or jumping with a known-good car battery in parallel with your own. If that failed, I'd remove the transmission cover and get a look around in there.
Hi

I've been trying to work out whether there is a common component between the kick start and the electric start as both sound the same and the issues started together. My understanding isn't great - hoping to get into the transmission later in the week but would I be right in thinking that the variator gear engages with both the kickstart mechanism and the bendix? So if there was an issue with that gear it could prevent either elec or kick start working?
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Laurencechapman wrote:
Hi

I've been trying to work out whether there is a common component between the kick start and the electric start as both sound the same and the issues started together. My understanding isn't great - hoping to get into the transmission later in the week but would I be right in thinking that the variator gear engages with both the kickstart mechanism and the bendix? So if there was an issue with that gear it could prevent either elec or kick start working?
I dont really think they're common the sense of being the same part. But they're related because they of course both operate in the transmission.

AF1 Racing provides part catalogues you can review to get an idea. The bigger gear wheel mates with Bendix and starter. The kickstart operates that smaller assembly in the middle.
https://www.af1racing.com/Vespa-ET2-ET4-Parts-Accessories

I agree you probably need to remove the transmission cover and have a look around. (Understood you're probably trying to do as much research as you can up front, due to the awkward work situation. Maybe put the scoot in a minivan or pickup truck to get back to your place?)
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berto wrote:
I dont really think they're common the sense of being the same part. But they're related because they of course both operate in the transmission.

AF1 Racing provides part catalogues you can review to get an idea. The bigger gear wheel mates with Bendix and starter. The kickstart operates that smaller assembly in the middle.
https://www.af1racing.com/Vespa-ET2-ET4-Parts-Accessories

I agree you probably need to remove the transmission cover and have a look around. (Understood you're probably trying to do as much research as you can up front, due to the awkward work situation. Maybe put the scoot in a minivan or pickup truck to get back to your place?)
Well that was an interesting morning!!! My hunch was pretty much correct - focus on the common component location between the 2 starting methods and that'll be the issue. What I wasn't expecting was the level of issue! So the photo is what fell out when I removed the transmission cover - nut, washer and fins all fell out, and as for the state of the fins, the less said the better!!!!!

Took the opportunity to look at the variator, and the Rollers are knackered too. So a new set of those on order along with a new kickstart pinion and I'll take it all apart again tomorrow and fit those. However, for now, I've put it back in place and its' running lovely again now.
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Laurencechapman wrote:
Well that was an interesting morning!!! My hunch was pretty much correct - focus on the common component location between the 2 starting methods and that'll be the issue. What I wasn't expecting was the level of issue! So the photo is what fell out when I removed the transmission cover - nut, washer and fins all fell out, and as for the state of the fins, the less said the better!!!!!

Took the opportunity to look at the variator, and the Rollers are knackered too. So a new set of those on order along with a new kickstart pinion and I'll take it all apart again tomorrow and fit those. However, for now, I've put it back in place and its' running lovely again now.
What The? emoticon

(What do you mean you put it back together? Even temporarily, I'm having trouble seeing how that destroyed variator face would reinstall in any reasonable way?)
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Facepalm emoticon
berto wrote:
What The? emoticon

(What do you mean you put it back together? Even temporarily, I'm having trouble seeing how that destroyed variator face would reinstall in any reasonable way?)
You make a perfectly valid point, and I missed some key info! Based on my hunch yesterday I ordered a new pulleywheel, fan and washer, and Nut. They arrived this morning. So it's running to get it home with those on - tomorrow I'll replace the pinion and rollers!
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Laurencechapman wrote:
Facepalm emoticon

You make a perfectly valid point, and I missed some key info! Based on my hunch yesterday I ordered a new pulleywheel, fan and washer, and Nut. They arrived this morning. So it's running to get it home with those on - tomorrow I'll replace the pinion and rollers!
Ah, that makes more sense!

Does this model have a one-time-use nut? If so, you may need to replace that again too?
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berto wrote:
Ah, that makes more sense!

Does this model have a one-time-use nut? If so, you may need to replace that again too?
Apparently so. I went extreme at £0.45 each and bought 2 more.
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if you use the blue grade threadlocker for that nut, this wont ever happen again....i had to learn the hard way a couple times...that nut flies around inside the case and reeks all kinds of havoc
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jixaw wrote:
if you use the blue grade threadlocker for that nut, this wont ever happen again....i had to learn the hard way a couple times...that nut flies around inside the case and reeks all kinds of havoc
Hi. I learned that the Vespa needs red grade high strength for most things after replacing the exhaust and losing most bolts!
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Laurencechapman wrote:
Hi. I learned that the Vespa needs red grade high strength for most things after replacing the exhaust and losing most bolts!
Not on the crankshaft, FFS! Even blue Locktite isn't advised unless you absolutely have to re-use the old nut. The nuts have an integral Belleville washer that once torqued up properly will never hold as well if used a second time. However when new if torqued properly on a dry crankshaft they will hold just fine.
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jimc wrote:
Not on the crankshaft, FFS! Even blue Locktite isn't advised unless you absolutely have to re-use the old nut. The nuts have an integral Belleville washer that once torqued up properly will never hold as well if used a second time. However when new if torqued properly on a dry crankshaft they will hold just fine.
Thats not the advice I got. I suspect that it's going to be one of those many different viewpoints things!

https://www.pedparts.co.uk/blog/variator-fitting-crankshaft-pulley-spline-damage
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id defer to Jim on this one...I have had to replace crankshafts and its a pain to do...id avoid the red stuff like the plague ....sounds like even the blue is not something thats needed if you use new nuts
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If you use the red, you'd have to significantly heat up the end of the crankshaft to allow the nut to be undone. This could damage the hardening of the shaft as well as damaging any other components that are nearby. Just not worth that risk. If you must, use a dab of blue, but remember to adjust the torque accordingly - the torques in the manual are for dry, unlubricated threads. Over torquing *may* not damage the shaft threads, but I wouldn't bet on it. Likewise, don't use an impact wrench to replace the nut unless you know exactly what you're doing. Crankshaft replacement is a bear...
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If you are going to use blue, take 10% off your torque value. And be prepare to use some heat when removing.
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