Modern Vespa

Similar to SDJohn's "how to paint" thread, I'd like to kick off a similar thread for resources and guidance on getting started with welding.

Lots of folks around here are capable welders, but I'm not one of them, and that's something is really like to rectify

When CM2 was in town, we talked about his he'd gotten going, and I know he's got a pretty good set of links and advice as someone who's ramped up quickly and recently. I also know that a decent amount of what little I thought I knew needed some adjustments.

So with that in mind, I'm thinking about MIG for fixing some legshield issues on my VBB, but eventually getting to enough TIG welding they I can add meat to a case for porting. I'm going to skip flux core entirely, I think.

Thoughts and links not just on technique, but also equipment are greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance to everyone who contributes!

If you can, take a course at a local community college or occupational school. They’re generally inexpensive and the instructors tend to be top notch.

Add that in with some youtoob

And practice, practice, practice.

You’ll get there.

TIG is it’s own beast. I’m certified on mig and oxy but I have yet to get my rhythm down on that shizz.

But if you can mig and have an oxy set up to braze you can go a long long way.

Welding is dirty and dangerous business.
I've lit shop rags on fire 15 feet away, many times.
I say befriend a welder.. For now.

Oh! And like painting:

-prep is everything

-professional tools (and supplies) yield better results

-you’re not welding big rigs. A *good* 110 buzz box with a bottle is fine.

Buy something decent, even used, and burn some wire and drain some tanks. It’ll come to you.

This is the best scoot welder:
https://store.cyberweld.com/mi140migwe90.html

You'll have to dance around 20 ga butt welds with that one. But doable.

I agree with the above, defo consider your area and the sparks that mig can throw. Honestly, just having a space to weld is the biggest hurdle.

For welders, i recommend the 140 Hobart handler. Made in the USA. Better quality than the Lincoln welder you see everywhere. Also, get the biggest tank of CO2 you can fit in your space. Cheaper and fewer trips to airgas. Pick up some .023 wire for sheet metal.

YouTube is great, but like others have said.... You just gotta spend time welding. Pick up a 4x6 band saw (no sparks, not loud way of cutting metal). Buy more flap disks, cut off wheels for your grinder than you think you need. Now get a couple sticks of steel tubing and start by making a bench. Lots of practice there with something tangible at the end. You will also get a feel for how steel moves when you weld.

I like the Eastwood vids on mig sheet metal. Like this

Mig welding is relatively easy because you have a free hand to hold stuff or use two hands on the welding gun. With tig, both hands are used-one on the gun and one on the rod. It can be intimidating.

Thanks for starting this! I had no appreciation of the fire danger on this. I want to learn to weld because I do have access to a safe place with a welder at work. Will look for community ed welding classes...

Ok - here goes.
My version of learn to weld in a day.
It's possible.

MIG vs TIG
- MIG is the easiest to learn and get good results.
- TIG is the prettiest - but it takes a lot of practice and a steady hand. You have to be really committed to doing a lot of time on this to get good at controlling the torch. No sparks, beautiful welds, aluminum, but big commitment and very frustrating to practice/learn.
- I am going to focus on MIG

Machines:
- Guys have listed them above, and they are very good machines, however... there are a lot of import inexpensive machines now on the market and a few stand out. Yes Welder makes an advanced feature machine, digital (finer adjustment and simpler to get settings right), and with inductance (less splatter and fine tune) - for $450. If I were jumping in as beginner - this would be high if not #1 on the list as those features will become important and I want that extra $200-300 to put towards other things.
With an advanced settings digital machine like this, when you adjust temperature, your wire feed automatically adjusts. Very nice for beginner.

Helmet:
- Auto darkening and trustable. This is your eyes. I'm a fan of Lincoln's line - large screen and very reliable. YES WELDER with good operation and inexpensive - but small window and you guys aren't getting any younger - so here I would go with the top US brands personally.

How to learn: (assuming MIG)
- Yes - practice... but practice what. Here is my primer:
- #1 mistake is holding your torch too far from the work. Keep a super tight distance and you will get less burn through and much nicer less lumpy results.
- Torch angle. Pay attention. Plenty online on what it should be. Don't get too tilted back.
- Gravity - it matters - and can help. A slight upward climb keeps the beed from running away from you as you sort of push it up hill with each advance.
- Placement of work - sounds obvious - but consider how your natural motion will be with your forearm. I like to have my weld travel at about 45 degrees - as I can rest my elbow on the table and swivel right to left across my body. Try not to have to contort your wrist.
- Push vs pull - it is a myth that one is better than the other. They are different - but not better. When you pull, with MIG - you tend to get more penetration. That is a problem on thin sheet metal - but an advantage on thick material that is tough to weld.
- Temp - As you work on a piece it heats up - and your settings should be turned down - or your travel speed increased.
- Making pretty "stack of dimes". See videos online - but... it is basically a small cursive E. Hold that torch in tight to the work - you will repeatedly find you are too far away. move relaxed and calm - and draw the E's with your gun consistently held in tight to the work.
- Basic rule of thumb, 1 amp for each .1" of metal, so .125" metal gets 125 amps.
- Prep. No paint on EITHER side of what you are welding. It is all molten and it pulls dirt and materials from the back side of your work. CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN. You want BRIGHT SHINNY METAL, wiped with acetone. Just do it - and it will give much better results.
- Weld Metals Online sells inexpensive pre prepped coupons. https://weldmetalsonline.com/collections/flat-metal-coupons
For MIG - get the 8: length in 1/16th and 1/8". Fill these with lines of beeds after you watch some how to videos - and you will be welding in a day.

Oh - and one thing I wish I had known when I started. It should sound like frying bacon. Shove that gun in closer to the work, splatter will generally reduce, and listen to the sound you get. you want consistent bacon frying rather than random occasional pops. And if you hear a hissing sound - you are probably too cold (low amperage) with your settings, or too far away from your work.

How to learn WTF to do.
- The longest standing most well respected and knowledgable guy online is generally held to be Jody Collier. https://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com Get a beer and just watch a few hours of this the night before. You will THINK you can weld when done. He is super knowledgable and has incredible content.

Plenty of others out there of course - but this guy has been teaching a long time - and has excellent videos worth browsing to get a base knowledge.

Some more tips:
I've gone through lots of welders!
Actually got a Harbor Freight toy, after I kept burning through legshield metal with my main setup. I have that Eastwood welder in the video above. It's also sold as Lotos on Amazon. Got it to run a dedicated spoolgun for aluminum welding. No fun.
IMO it's like skiing, fishing, most things.. Use better equipment and you will enjoy it more, maybe want to continue doing it. That welder I recommended will last longer than all of us. It'll also retain its value, should you ever quit welding.

Add a bench press and an angle grinder and there are a number of rebuild tools you can make yourself, as well as mods of your choosing. It's fun.

It's essential to have a fan while welding. But in a mig setup that fan will blow the shielding gas off of the nozzle, making the weld look like garbage. Get a vortex/directional fan and keep it off the weld, and protecting you.

Shielding gas pressure is a funny thing. I use 25psi at the tank valve. It seems intuitive that more gas would yield cleaner welds. More than 25-30 and it gets ugly. I weld dirty metal all the time. Keep that gas low with a steady gun and you'll fool them all.

Thanks Ray8 and CM2!

this was the sort of guidance I was looking for--i can take a class, but that only gets you so far, and finding a good balance on things like value for money on welders and other gear like masks.

I have been watching lots of videos about this.

I am considering doing a repair myself – some pre-stamped repair panels – the floorboard and some patches at the bridge.

Videos like this make it look possible.

But welding thin grade sheet metal looks like one of the hardest welding challenges. Unlikely I could do it perfect on my first attempt. I've used a mig welder, but for like tacking things.

Considering also doing all the prep, and planning it out, then taking to a shop.

Not sure what kind of shop, though. There are body shops that do collision repair, and welding shops near me. But those seem to specialize in architectural welding.

Could I trust that a welding shop like that could do seamless panel welds?

Yes, it is challenging.
You can get 12" square, 20 gauge panels at Home Depot to try your luck on some disposable metal, and also dial-in your welding setup.
The way you weld those repair panels is essentially a lot of tacking, in kind of a bolt sequence from one corner to another until the seams are filled. It you go straight at it you'll burn through or overheat/warp the panel.
You could always go as far as you still feel good about it. If it isn't gonna happen look up a welder on Craig's list. Patient tacking won't do much harm.

To add to Ray8s good suggestions:
- try a thinner wire like .025
- and (this is critical) make sure your pieces of metal are in full contact where u hit it with the welder.

When there is a gap - even a small one - the materials behave like they are half the thickness. Additionally, edges are already prone to burn back.

If I were tackling I would:
1. Fit as perfectly as I could
2. use a piece of 1/8” copper as a backer to draw heat out (weld will not stick
3. Clamp using that copper to help align the two panels.
4. Clean to bright shinny metal, and wipe with a acetone before welding
5. Stitch with spot welds by alternating putting one all the way left, then one all the way right, the. Making the next left spot weld just overlap the last by a touch.

The link I put above for coupons can be ordered in 1/16” and give you lots of edges to work with. They are remarkably affordable as well. That’s very close to the thickness of your floor panel.

-cm

Thank you! These are so helpful.

I'll try that! I can prep it all, and have the pieces ready. And see how it works out on test metal. If I can't get that to work, the actual welding part would be pretty quick for a professional to do.

I thought this video was excellent for learning how wire speed and heat work together, plus you can hear the difference in the good and bad welds.

This is great! One thing he mentions here, and I've also seen in other videos is to use smaller wire for sheet metal. This one recommends 023, and generally low heat settings.

Interesting, he uses CO2 instead of argon gas.

This was another one similar.

Forgot about mentioning copper.
You can buy a 3/4 to 1" piece of copper pipe at home depo too. Smash one end flat with a hammer and use it as a backer to fill those crazy old holes.

I would think MIG welding would work very well on a Vespa. The metal is thicker than the auto body steel I usually weld and the pronounced shapes will help the panels resist warping from heat distortion.

Couple more tips...
You can MIG weld aluminum. The wire is too soft to run through a standard hose, so you'll need a spoolgun. The Millermatic 211 (220v) and the 150 spoolgun work really well together.
You'll also need a tank of 100% argon, as well as a shit load of tips to go through as you learn.
I used to weld/repair cast aluminum bells and finials. The bells never sounded right, and one out of ten finial welds would eventually fail. Aluminum is a strange metal. Cast aluminum is way stranger.

A lot of youtube videos show how to make a perfect looking weld. Welds don't have to be pretty, just work. A welded sheet repair should look ugly, before cleaning with an angle grinder and a blending disk.

Doctors orders are that I can only do gas and laser welding, emf does not play nice with the pacemaker.

I have progressed to the “I suck” level on aluminum. I really need to go back to steel to improve my skills before trying aluminum again.

How to fill a 3/8" hole with a mig welder and an angle grinder.
Bare metal (no paint). Flash rust is ok. Doesn't require acetone or crazy sanding, as you can see.
Start with the lowest settings on your welder.

Thanks, Ray!

That also looks like it'd be a good practice exercise in general.

For anyone looking for a welder that has been waiting for a sale.. HF has 15% off welders today and tomorrow.

I'll finally be taking a chance on one so I can weld the spring hooks onto my jl exhaust pipes.

Nice!
(And welcome back!)
Which model?
They get generally good ratings for lower cost machines from what I've seen. More then capable.

Hey guys,
Ran across this last week. It's long.
if you're doing body repair panels this will make you an expert.
Never thought of using compressed air to cool things off. Genius.
Quick caveat:
Do not use that cutoff tool he uses! Use an angle grinder.

*With a cutoff wheel

https://www.harborfreight.com/easy-flux-125-amp-welder-56355.html?_br_psugg_q=titanium
$197 with discount.

Welding is a young man's game inasmuch as it is about eyesight. But OK if you buy a magnifier for inside the helmet.

Do you want to learn to weld or just fix stuff?
TIG is like gas welding pretty and satisfying like lobster back expansion chambers. But it takes practice.
MIG is easier for just fixing stuff. But the rig is more expensive?
STICK welding is OK but not so easy on thin metals.

Practice, practice, practice as has been said.

As has been said find a local community college and take a course. Most courses allow you to take a project to the course so you can work on it as you learn. Then you get the job done without buying equipment.

Swiss,
That's their flux only.
You can do the least expensive most robust outdoor/ poor environment fixes with it.

It's not going to be pretty.
U have to knock the slag off.
But it requires no gas to shield ur weld with - which will save lots of money and hassle.

So those are the trade offs.

TIG is the hardest to learn but the easiest to see.

MIG is easier to do but harder to see.

Flux core is utilitarian - hard to see detail - not for fine surgery - but effective - and cheapest but ugliest results.

You forgot it splatters a lot, I've run flux and gas in my mig. The mig is so much cleaner with less splatter.

Withstanding any specs etc, if you have access to 220 I'd get this.

https://www.harborfreight.com/welding/welders/170-amp-dc-240-volt-migflux-cored-welder-68885.html

Christopher.
Good point.

For those new to welding, don't forget the accessories ... gloves and helmet ... and for MIG/TIG ... tank, gas, hose, regulator, cart ... What else am I forgetting?

I used to do arc welding 20 yrs ago in art school. Way messier. Just needed basic no frills make things stick together. Cheap. Smaller real estate. No tanks. Also nothing 220v as my power options are limited given I rent both housing and separate garage.

Flux core is good enough to stick two tabs onto exhaust for springs to hold the manifold to the pipe, and a crack on a cowl! Plus the obligatory leg shield bead tool.

Re: the video... It's a really good example of flush patch welding.
The air-powered cut-off wheel is nice ( looks much easier to control than a grinder. Like a big Dremel ) and kerfing at a 45 degree angle is the best way to do the job.
I like the guy using his bare hand to locate the first tack. " Gotta move quickly ."
The use of air to cool is a great idea and I will have to try that next time. I can get impatient and over-heat things sometimes... it tends to accumulate as you go.
I would add magnets to the list and I also like that paste to stick the MIG tip in to reduce the build-up on the nozzle.
One key to a good weld is getting a very good ground with the cable clamp. I sometimes clamp a vice grip on and then put the cable clamp on that.
Even an inexpensive set of body tools will work but you file or grind off and smooth the sharp corners before you use them. The hammers usually have pretty small faces on them which are OK for serious bumping, but one with a wider, slightly curved face is good to have for smoothing. And then there are shrinking hammers and slap files and...........

Wire brush and sanding disks to clean the welding surface. Chipping hammer to remove slag (for stick and Flux core). Grinding wheels to clean up your welds - or to grind out your crappy weld and try again

I'm probably going to pull the trigger and go grab that 220v MIG/Flux model. Just need to roll over to Harbor Freight and grab one. It's "clear across town," which for me means fifteen minutes each way

And get some safety gear, of course.

Next, I'll hit the dump (five minutes away) and get a tank for CO2, because they stack those aside and I can grab one. Then I can also start grabbing scrap from there for practice material. I'll return it when I'm done.

make us some videos of your learning process

When I was an apprentice the slag would be curling off the weld as it progressed along!

I've got that welder. Surprisingly robust welds for a 120v. Weighs close to a loaf of bread. But doing body repairs with it will have you pulling your hair out.