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Jet Eye Master
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UTC quote
Going to be interesting when you find the issue.

To rough check the flywheel hasn't slipped, just check TDC. Screwdriver in the spark plug hole and the flywheel mark, should be ~3/4 inch Infront of the cover timing marks.
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Spark plugs....

The 460 V8 was running rough and skipping a bit. I replaced the wires, plugs, cap and rotor.

Ran a bit worse. So I checked all the fuel injectors and pressure tested the fuel system. All good. Hmmm.

Back to the plugs. I looked up online how to test them (just an impedance value) and proceeded to pull each plug and check them. Two out of the eight were off! Now, these were all brand new from AutoZone.

Replaced the two, and it's been running like a champ.... Hours and hours...for two plugs... Facepalm emoticon
Lunch with a view in the Minnow, a 1997 30' Winnebago - with a 460 v8
Lunch with a view in the Minnow, a 1997 30' Winnebago - with a 460 v8
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You "could" test the firing point with a multimeter.

Easier with a battery and a bulb.
At about 8:00 here:

OP
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can you do that with the CDI/electronic setup? I thought that was only for points.
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sdjohn wrote:
can you do that with the CDI/electronic setup? I thought that was only for points.
Sorry, thought you were using a points stator.

In my experience of 2x using a multimeter on Vapes it works, even on the variable ignition
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Ray8 wrote:
Sorry, thought you were using a points stator.

In my experience of 2x using a multimeter on Vapes it works, even on the variable ignition
That's interesting, worth a look!
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sdjohn wrote:
That's interesting, worth a look!
Truth in advertising this is still F around and find out level on EI's.

Continuity setting with a digital readout.

I can post a video if you can wait till Friday.
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Ray8 wrote:
Truth in advertising this is still F around and find out level on EI's.

Continuity setting with a digital readout.

I can post a video if you can wait till Friday.
Consider me intrigued
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Ray8 wrote:
Truth in advertising this is still F around and find out level on EI's.

Continuity setting with a digital readout.

I can post a video if you can wait till Friday.
Oh I can wait, thank goodness I'm not in a hurry. I've not been riding to work anyway, mornings are too cold in December.
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Been there too. Spark, no fuel. Floods, no spark. New plug, no fuel. Starter fluid…starts and runs. On hot days, put all my gear on and it stalls, no start and sweating bullets kicking it. Take my gear off, it starts. You get the idea.
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continuing on with WAG's and SITD's...

new plug, but correct plug? short reach v long reach... the fuel/compression could be washing out the spark.

CDI grounded?

you have spark when grounded to engine case, try just for S&G's running a jumper ground from a fin on the head or case stud to the motor.

my money is on timing though...
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Gotta apologize again, John.

My F-around shenanigans won't be of any help to you.

Multimeter definitely picks up the firing point on 3 bikes, confirmed with the strobe at 3k static and 4500k variable. No clue how/why this works but it has so far.

But it also beeps elsewhere over rotation. I know my firing point already, but trying to find it somewhere out of full rotation won't work
It's just impractical.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/z1_iLmhIsoo
Static CDI curve
Static CDI curve
Firing point between the 2's, on a stock Sprint. Could advance it a bit but I'll leave it.
Firing point between the 2's, on a stock Sprint. Could advance it a bit but I'll leave it.
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Thanks for reporting back on that!
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Today's play by play:

1) advance flywheel to opposite end of slots
2) start bike - yes, it does, more kicks than I'd like and a flood clearing maneuver required, but it starts and runs.
3) remove stolen CDI and restart - yes
4) it still acts flooded. work with the air screw a bit, smooth it out. turn in the idle screw until it keeps running anyway with it closed - open it back up about 1 turn (Spaco)
3) make obligatory flywheel timing marks
4) restart bike - running wayyyyyy advanced, maybe 30 degrees (!)
5) stator in the middle - still too advanced, runs though
6) stator back to IT mark, runs (guess timing wasn't the issue but was useful to solve it ?)
7) side journey into flywheel testing, all 3 flywheels are OK
8) verify timing at IT mark, idles at 18 but advances to 20/21 with RPM
9) small journey up and down my condo street. 1st gear, 2nd gear OK. 3rd hard to engage. looks like cable work

So I'm going. Lots to do, but it seems the prime culprit actually is running rich. With the extra advanced timing, it allowed it to start. Cutting the fuel helped it enough to run at lower timings. I am betting on needing a leaner idle jet.

Next steps:
1) make it run with the Dellorto carb I started with or rule it out as junk
2) make it run with the Greasy stator or rule it out as junk
3) get the carb tuned in better, probably a leaner idle jet for starters
4) cable adjustments to find out if my questionable selector box is an issue or not
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YES! Forward momentum! Good job Clap emoticon Clap emoticon Clap emoticon
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sdjohn wrote:
8) verify timing at IT mark, idles at 18 but advances to 20/21 with RPM
The green line on the graph pic I posted is the stock Ducati curve.

I'm not a Vape salesman -- but man, it's a great rule-that-out investment.
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that looks about right, as far as what happens, Ray8.

no need for investment - I'm just returning it to stock to sell it

I need this engine to just work right and do what it did from the factory, then it is ready for sale. I am OK if I have to leave the Sito plus on there, but honestly all stock is what I was aiming for. I thought doing so would make the jetting a breeze but it seems like each engine has it's own quirks, so custom jetting will be required.
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If you can't find the right junction box, make it by flipping and drilling the wrong one.
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Lots of progress today but some setback as well.

I'm able to get it running but it's always a bitch to start, floods at the drop of a hat. You can pull the air filter and it will start, but that's hardly a solution . It's worst on cold starts or long soaks.

Once I was running I was able to swap carbs, it runs the same on the old Dellorto I wanted to use. I pulled the main down to 102, then 100, then 98. I ended for now at 100. The pilot jet I swapped to the 48-160 that belongs in there. I had swapped the carb for the one on the Stella but not the brass.

I got the clutch adjusted, which fixed all the gear shifting issues. I was able to get it out and get into all the gears, and do some real driving. The 25cc difference is kind of a big deal. Let's just say I would be OK with the 150 top end I was using on the Stella but I would have to swap this sucker out.

I tried the other stator but it doesn't spark all the time. It's probably a pickup or LT coil. I'm accumulating shitty PX stators that have something wrong and it's always probably a pickup or LT coil .

I tried putting back on the flywheel I want to get rid of but it has weak spark when I use it, so that one got pulled and set aside.

I now know the running / starting issues are carb or rotary pad related. There is a good amount of spitback. If I set the idle screw with the air filter off, then put it on, it will stall. If I adjust the idle screw with it on, it's OK. Until you try to start it from colder. Then it just floods and makes you remove the air filter to get it started. The shorter starts (5 minute soak) are OK now once you dial it in.

I'm not sure where to take it. I obviously can't sell it saying "just pull the air filter to start it". I'm going to try and find a 45/160 or a 42/140 idle jet. My idle screw settings are smaller than ideal. It's kind of alarming because this is already one of the leanest idle jets around.

I'm wondering about using a Polini venturi and filter setup to just get out of the filter restriction / loading issue that seems to be happening. It would be more like what I ended up doing on my smallie that had a sketchy rotary pad.

I know you can go reed, but shit that's a lot of work that I'm not interested in for an engine I just wanted to get rid of.
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I guess i can narrow the plug gap too - it's worth trying.
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John, have you tried a leak down on the rotary yet?

I'm sure I missed it, but what's your compression at?
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I have not tried a leak down on the rotary - got a link on how to do it?

Compression was good at 125psi.

I see some interesting alternative jetting on the Allstyles web site:

PX 125 EFL (VNX2T)
CARBURETOR: DELLORTO SI 20/20 D
VENTURI SIZE: 20 mm
MAIN JET: 99
PILOT JET: 45/100
THROTTLE SLIDE: 6823.08
MIXER TUBE: BE 5
AIR CORRECTION JET 140/100
STARTER JET: 60/100

The slide is probably not right in my carb. The idle jet is where I was going anyway. The BE5 and 140 seem like they would cause more troubles than where I'm at but I've got some of those to try anyway.
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like this on testing the pad?

https://modernvespa.com/forum/post1407646#1407646
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There's also the feeler gauge test:
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yeah man, that's the one. I like the oil leak test v the feeler gauge, I feel it's a little easier and less likely to mess up even though it's by no means exact.

good idea to loop back and check the jetting. I know it sounds counterintuitive but I'd aim for the leaner side of things to just get it going and starting reliably and then up-jet to a comfortable range for running and ease of starting.
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Did the rotary pad look bad? Misfiring can also cause spitback.
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I don't think I have a picture or looked particularly hard after dragging the bent crank across it. It shouldn't have gouges, it was smooth ahead of that event, and the crank isn't gouged. But it may have taken a marginal clearance and made it worse.

I will try the oil test, it's easy. I'm assuming I will get a large ganja smoke start afterward - best to avoid with the wife around.
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Hope it checks out. I'm also interested to see how the oil test works. I never had much luck with the feeler gauge method.

Just throwing some darts here in of things I checked when having similar issues:

Stator pickup and flywheel magnets lining up. There is an FMP video on how to check.

Switching carbs around, I had a non drilled air filter on the carb at some point. It gave me starting/running issues until I noticed it wasn't fitting right and swapped them back.

Good luck.
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Filled to top of carb box, and then some Facepalm emoticon

5 min
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So now on the way - 2 types of lean slide, multiple lean idle jets, and an atomizer. Seems like the pad is good enough based on the test.
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That's good news!

Thanks for posting that.
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Nedminder
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John - just catching up.
Skeptical that your issue is pad related - and your test seams to show same.
IK Freakmoped says they are dead at .15 or something like that - but honestly - I'm not sure there is any data on that that confirms - and there is plenty of experiential "data" that refutes.

These engines are much more susceptible to air leaks in my view.
When you have an air leak - jetting becomes knife edged - seemingly to rich or too lean with the slightest change of screw or jet.
Are you certain it's air tight?
Carb included? (meaning - you can spray carb cleaner around the base of carb when its running and there is no change to idle).

assuming you ARE airtight - but still fighting with flooding - then generally speaking its most likely carb or idle jet related.
Quote:
I'm able to get it running but it's always a bitch to start, floods at the drop of a hat.
So maybe isolate some things with existing jetting.
1. SI chokes are FINICKY. that little gold tab on the end of the rod that goes into the carb can stick - even when it looks like it's closed. suggest - remove the choke cable at the carb. activate the choke with needle nose and while it is engaged - rotate that damn thing out of the way - and make sure the choke rod is going ALL the way back into the carb.
2. Try smaller idle jet - rather than change all jetting. if its flooding on start up - that is idle jet related - OR
3. Have a look right down the throat of the carb. tilt the bike to the engine side - how far do you have to go before you see drip drip dripping from that little brass tube in the carb float. Should be a good 45° or so.

In short - if your engine is air tight - and it's flooding - look at the carb for solutions.
Let us know!
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Thanks CM. It leak checked fine but if course that didn't include the carb box or carb. Will definitely check all the above. The lean test - is that a float test?
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The lean test: yes. Simple means to make sure something funky isn't going on with float level.
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Any luck yet?
Some straw grasping things:

If you're using an aftermarket blue filter, it can become quickly restrictive from blowback.

The Spaco threads of the idle mixture screw are easily damaged, giving a false "turns in."

Spark strength can be measured with a cheap gap tester*.

You can test-lean-out the idle circuit by running the engine with the fuel closed to lower gravity pressure from the bowl, or by leaning the bike way left while kicking.

*
https://www.amazon.com/Deal%E3%80%91OriGlam-Adjustable-Ignition-Circuit-Diagnostic/dp/B06X9RC3PF/ref=b2b_gw_d_puwl_sccl_1/142-6681331-6362240?pd_rd_w=hg8E4&content-id=amzn1.sym.b310e748-aabe-4e0b-b7f0-83108dccd7d2&pf_rd_p=b310e748-aabe-4e0b-b7f0-83108dccd7d2&pf_rd_r=NTRC8Z9CKF7848R6H9KJ&pd_rd_wg=1Y4E6&pd_rd_r=52d9800c-6408-40c4-84c8-7dbd9002ec30&pd_rd_i=B06X9RC3PF&psc=1
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It's on hold until Jets and slides show up. Plus my in-laws are here to visit. Soon enough we will get back at it.
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142 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9507
Location: Nashville

142 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
I still think it's electrical.

I can't recall, but did you check the ignition with a timing light to make sure the spark isn't jumping around?
@charlieman22 avatar
UTC

Nedminder
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4071
Location: california
 
Nedminder
@charlieman22 avatar
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4071
Location: california
UTC quote
Quote:
It's on hold until Jets and slides show up. Plus my in-laws are here to visit. Soon enough we will get back at it.
what, they can't hold a flashlight?
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