Modern Vespa

Hi All - new member and new GTS owner, and hoping to find someone with experience in taking a MSF Course in NYC. Most of my two-wheeled experience was on Dirt Bikes as a kid, and taking Revel scooters all over Brooklyn. The GTS has been immensely fun, and I've put on 300 miles since picking it up last month.

I have recently been looking into taking a MSF Basic RiderCourse, which seems like the easiest way to get the motorcycle license while also brushing up on skills. I noticed that the company that does these courses here in NYC allow you to select scooter or motorcycle for the course. Does anyone have any input with what would be better? While I will primarily be riding my GTS, my gut is telling me to take the motorcycle option, as there is more availability and I assume they will take you onto highways and bridges (which I have no experience with, currently), as well as traveling above 50 MPH. Any insights would be appreciated!

100% take it on a motorcycle.

The skillset for a moto is a touch more advanced and will make you a better all around rider. Full Stop.

In TX we did not get on freeways when I took the course. In fact, we never left the training grounds.

YMMV

My first MSF course, scooters weren't even offered as an option. My second, they were (and that's what I chose, as I was used to it). I did it in two different states, and we never left the parking lot.

For me, I will always pick a scoot when taking the MSF, and the main reason is simply that I absolutely suck when it comes to using the clutch. I have no intentions of ever buying anything that isn't automatic, so it really isn't an issue for me.

I have heard many tales/rumors of people actually renting someone's scooter in order to take the license test, at least in California where the riding test is notoriously difficult.

I would say go with what you think you'll be able to learn with the best. It's probably a very good idea to learn shifting, even if most scooterists now never need to do it, but it was too confusing/distracting for me. For the vast majority of the MSF, the skills you need to know apply to both motorcycles and scoots.

Yeah, choose the motorcycle. When I took the MSF course in MN there were no scooters, and the motorcycles were all 200 to 250cc. We never left the parking lot either. Have fun!

I, too, took the MSF course in Texas. We never left the parking lot that the course was set up in. Scooters were an option, which I chose. They only had two scooters available (Genuine Buddy 125s). Looking back on it, I would have been better off choosing a motorcycle, because I'd have learned motorcycle shifting (although I imagine it isn't that difficult to do, and I already know how to shift a manual trans car). It was nice having the underseat storage for water bottles in the Late June Texas heat.

I'd already had my motorcycle endorsement for almost 40 years, when I took the MSF course in 2006 or 7 here in Ohio. It was a scooter only class that had been set up by a local MSF instructor that was also an avid scooter rider (he was the organizer of the Ride Around Lake Erie each year). Otherwise, you couldn't use a scooter until a few years later. I've heard that you no longer can use a scooter, but not really sure.

Even though I was extremely comfortable on my LX and previous motorcycles, I still found it educational, and the instructor corrected some long-held bad habits. Two of our fellow students were riding '60s shifter Vespas, and did fantastic. Short wheelbase helps a lot in the parking lot course.

Welcome!

Follow your gut.

My husband and I took the course on motorcycles even though, at the time, we only had scooters. I'd ridden motorcycles many years previous but he hadn't and I argued that to take the course on motos would open up more opportunities for him. Besides, if you've ever driven a manual transmission car, it's not all that different. As it turned out, within a month he had purchased his first motorcycle, and in less than 6 we added the Vespas. We now have 4 scooters and two motorcycles and ride them all regularly.

You never know, you might want to ride a motorcycle someday and you'll be glad you already know how.

Definitely take it on a motorcycle. It is more challenging on a MC than a scoot; the scooter will seem easy afterwards.

Also, don't get your hopes up that you will take the MSF anywhere but on a closed course, at top speeds <20mph. At the HD dealership where I took my MSF course, the dealership offered a free road-course training option, but only AFTER you have your MC license, and you do the road course on your own bike. I doubt many/any MSF programs want the liability of having new riders out on public roads and subject to god knows what at the hands of other drivers out of their control.

Yup learn to ride a motorcycle shifting gears, applying the clutch not stalling and low speeds, doing the figure 8's on 1st/2nd gear and getting good at downshifting when slowing down etc. All told you will be well equipped to ride the GTS & other bikes thereafter.
I took the MSF course back in 1991, never had a Vespa till 2011 and have enjoyed riding in NYC and out of town, the skills I learned at the MSF course and thereafter have helped me be a better rider.
Balance at slow speeds while having to shift gears helps you be better with a Vespa.

Life is a risk benefit ratio.

Just a couple weeks ago, I took the MSF course on my own Vespa 50.

The risk is I didn't learn how to ride and shift a motorcycle. If I ever want to, I'll have to learn how to shift. But where I live, there is only one license. I can legally ride a motorcycle having passed the course.

The benefit is I got to focus on scooter riding skills and it was a lot less stressful for me as I knew how to operate my Vespa. I saw the others sweat trying to shift and make a u-turn at the same time.

So run the numbers. For me, the benefit greatly exceeded the risk. Only you can calculate the risk benefit ratio. YMMV

Motorcycle. In my class we never got over 20mph, so only one shift up/down. The bikes they had were small and a little beat up, and if you fell, the instructors felt worse than you.

If you’ve put 300 miles on the GTS already then use it to take the course. Using an automatic is going to make it much easier. The GTS is so simple to ride and you’ll pass easy.

Take the MSF course. Get some motorcycle and gear sifting skill.

In AZ, if you take the motorcycle test on a vehicle less than 150cc your endorsement will be limited to 150cc. Take it on anything bigger you can ride anything. Also, some MSF places might not allow personal vehicles. I wouldn't want to get sued because some dumb-ass spilled his new GTV.

If I had the option I would take it on whatever is the easiest/cheapest to give me the most unrestricted route to ride any bike. In UK it takes several months to book and complete the 3 tests and can cost around $1000 to get it done.

+1 on doing the MC option.

That being said, MCs have larger wheels and different weight distribution, so it's worth noting for posterity that translating the execution of the skills to your scoot will take continued care and practice on your own machine.

Sounds like you already have a history riding AND some with your scoot, but I felt compelled to say it

How do they do that? The Arizona DMV website only lists one type of motorcycle endorsement and doesn't specify anything about engine size restrictions. My wife took her MSF course on a 50cc Vespa (12 years ago) and was given the same "M" endorsement on her license that I have. There was no restriction on engine size that I'm aware of.

EDIT: I did some more poking around on the AZ DMV website and found this: "If you test with a 100cc or less motorcycle, you will receive a "J" restriction. You must test with a motorcycle greater than 100cc to obtain an unrestricted license." That must be something that came along after my wife got her "M" endorsement.

-Craig

I took the MSF BRC1 at Kingsborough over Memorial Day weekend. You could choose either scooter or motorcycle. I will say this - if your goal is to just pass the course to get the waiver, take it on the scooter as the skills test will be easier. If you want to get the most learning out of the class, choose a motorcycle.

The available motorcycles in my class were as follows (they put them out in the range and just told you to go pick one - they were not assigned to any particular riders, unless you asked for a scooter):

Honda Rebel 250
Honda Rebel 300
Yamaha XT250 (what I used)
Yamaha Vstar 250?
Honda Grom
Yamaha Zuma 125

You will not leave the parking lot. Top speed will be ~25mph. If you are on a motorcycle you will not shift past 2nd.

I had 11 people in my class. 3 failed (1 for dropping his bike while waiting in line during the skills assessment.)

If you have any particular questions about taking the course at Kingsborough, feel free to ask.

I took the CA MSF course and opted for the scooter.
Looking back, if I could choose again, I would do it on a motorcycle.

Thanks for that!

Illinois here and the rides are provided, you come in long pants, long sleeved shirts, bring gloves and proper riding footwear, solid shoes, boots.. they have a variety of helmets and the bikes are all gear shifting 250 sized. I did take my own helmet and was correct on that, they didn’t have any sized for my tiny little head.. 53 cm.
Cost was and still is $20, which either gets you a t-shirt or that $20 refunded If/when you pass.

It’s $385 here in NYC. Lol.

I completely agree with this sentiment. Miguel

Personally I went the scooter route. The local MSF course was available with either a motorcycle, or in a separate class, a scooter. The decision was easy for me. I have driven manual transmission cars, but would *NEVER* own one. I have never driven a manual motorcycle, and frankly have absolutely zero interest in ever doing so. It wasn't strictly because it would be easier; it was because taking the MSF with a motorcycle would put me through what would amount to a useless exercise of getting comfortable with a clutch.

Ride your own ride. If that will never include clutches, don't bother to learn clutches.

For the first MSF - I chose Motorcycle -- for the Second Intermediate I chose Scooter (my own) and I will do so for advanced. That said if I get a motorcycle I'm retaking the Intermediate and Advanced to brush up on my skills.

Great experience with the motorcycles and I got to try two-three of theirs.

I got my MC endorsement in Ohio in 2020. At that time it mattered which bike you took the test on - if a motorcycle, you get a MC endorsement. If a scooter, you get a more limited scooter endorsement. In OH you can take the MSF in lieu of the test. Not sure if there is the same limitation on which bike/which endorsement associated with the MSF.

OP, Best check your state laws just to be sure.

Chris from CLE

I just took the MSF course a couple of months ago in the same county as the OP. It doesn't matter here if you take the MSF course on a motorcycle or scooter. If you pass on either, you get the waiver for the M endorsement. I *believe* you can also take the DMV road test on a scooter and get the M.

The MSF Basic skills is a standardized session, nation wide. You won't leave a parking lot.

I chose the MC, even though I owned a scooter because I knew, in MN, that the endorsement would let me ride anything on earth, and I wanted to be able to claim I could sift and ride a standard bike if I had to.

I just got done with the intermediate course: a guy ad an MP3 which, I think, make his life a lot easier.

With a scooter, as with my automatic bike with a DCT, it is actually harder on many of the test since you don't have a clutch to modulate on the low speed stuff. The clutch/friction zone actually help you on the course.

Either way is fine. I chose the MC and long term I think it paid off when I eventually bought a shifty bike.

Only if the scooter is between 50 and 100cc, 5 HP or less, and maximum speed of 20 MPH. Anything else is licensed, titled, insured, and endorsed as a motorcycle.

https://www.dmv.org/oh-ohio/other-types.php

And

https://www.dmv.org/oh-ohio/motorcycle-license.php

You can get the same effect by dragging your rear brake. Give it a little gas -- just enough to engage the clutch -- and use the rear brake instead of the throttle to control your speed.

This helps prevent the power-on/power-off lurching that comes from the clutch engaging and disengaging with throttle inputs.

It's probably not something to be trying out while in the middle of an MSF course unless it's actually part of the course material (but if you're on a scooter in a class with motorcycles, ask the instructor about it when it comes time for the motorcycle riders to work on the friction-zone thing).

This is what I ended up doing, partially by practice, partially by recommendation of the instructors and partially form input form other classmates. I'm not great at it yet as I'd just transitioned from a standard bike and kept reaching for the clutch! It gives you the drag, but a different feel, fighting the engine vs. controlling it's power, sort of.
Thanks

Took the msf in the Bronx. Would suggest doing it on the motorcycle.

Felt like half the course on a scooter you would be waiting around while ppl learn to shift gears, use a clutch.

No riding over 20mph.

I’ve been meaning to follow up my old post about taking msf. Will have to come back to this, Finish reading the thread.

Yes, definitely. The rear brake is the best stand in for feathering the clutch. When I took the Experienced Rider Course on my GTS, the instructor at one point yelled “I’m seeing brake lights! I don’t want to see brake lights!” on one of the slow-speed maneuvering exercises. I explained to him that the rear brake was being used as a substitute for feathering the clutch, and he immediately understood and said nothing more about it.

Posted half asleep. redo.

I took the msf in the bronx. I would say take w a motorcycle.

I decided to do take the class in dec - so had several months of time to obsess over basic mc riding videos on youtube. So by the time I got to the class, for me, it felt like it was mostly about learning to use a manual transmission.


The nyc msf is expensive vs other states - so it felt like it would kinda be a waste to not learn the manual transmission. If you ever want to get on a mc later, you’ll probably still have a bit of relearning to do, but at least you have a starting point. Not sure how else I would expect to even get down the block otherwise.

I also spend time on a revel practicing slow turns, figure 8s at the ikea parking lot. Think that was helpful. There are some of the course exercises they basically give you 2xs to learn and the 3rd is the test.

Nys pdf mc driving manual - https://dmv.ny.gov/brochure/mv21-mc.pdf
This was in someways more concise and clear vs the msf book.





Overall I had to remember how it felt as a kid getting my drivers lic - how little i really knew. Leaving the msf, (as the joke goes) I really only felt like I had the skills to ride in a parking lot.



Re highways, faster riding - If you are crossing the east river bridges, thats a good start. It will get you used to the wind. I haven’t done a tone of freeway time. Went with guidance i saw on line, jump on a freeway when its not busy, go a stop or two and then get off. If you want to get out of the city, even telling google maps/waze not to use highways, you will likely end up on 50/55mph roads and accidentally on the freeway. My first freeway rides were totally by accident, wrong turn.

Oh, ha, yeah I also made a bad choice to take the bqe off the wb bridge at night - Im sure i was lucky I didn't get hit. Wasn't familiar w the lanes and couldn't see the lines. Cars probably going 80 around me.

-> I would also book an appointment to add your mc endorsement now. it was taking quite a long time to get one. 
https://nysdmvqw.us.qmatic.cloud/naoa/index.jsp

The lic upgrade process is confusing bc it’s set up for cars and msf kinda reverses the order you pass tests.

At the dmv you can take the permit test and upgrade yr lic at same appointment.

Passing the msf = the driving part of the test. (dmv thinks this will happen after yr permit)
you’ll do the permit written test = written test.

then after passing the permit test you can upgrade yr lic.