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'81 Vespa P200e, '85 Vespa PX125e, 1985 T5
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Hooked
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Hey all,

I have a px125e with a dr180 and a sip road 3.0 and a 20mm carb.

It’s a Nice robust scooter. Has some great torque. Great for city blasts But limited top end speed.

Any suggestions or verified gear ratio combinations you can share to help me improve top end speed in fourth gear?

I’m thinking of changing the clutch to a 23(?) tooth cosa clutch.
Putting in a 24mm carb and match the airbox to the carb.

Anything else?

You help and expertise is always appreciated. Thank you.
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Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181, PX125 and some motorbikes
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Jet Eye Master
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You know how many rpm its doing? This Will confirm it but a 22 cog is usually all it needs. If you do go 23, remember you need the one for the 68 ring gear.
Not difficult to add more power to the cylinder, while you have it in bits (this will make it faster even with the stock gearing).
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I'm using a 23T clutch and 24/24e with my 'modified' DR177. It's a late PX150 motor, so it has the 35T 4th like the PX200. It's good in favourable conditions, as I am quite light, but it is definitely over geared. I'm going to put in a 36T 4th from a PX125 at some stage, and as Jack said, do a bit more to the cylinder to maximise power.
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UTC quote
How can I determine how many rpms it’s doing?

I have no experience and very little understanding on gear ratios. So all help is appreciated.

Thank you.
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You will need to know what speed you are doing, using a GPS rather than the Vespa speedo, then use a gear calculator to work out what RPM you were doing through the gears and at full speed. Here are some screenshots of your gearing with 22T and 23T clutch cogs. It assumes you can achieve 7K RPM in 4th and have an otherwise stock PX125E gearbox and a 3.50x10" tyre. In reality, ~6500 RPM is good and typical for a DR, given it's port durations and thick piston rings, but 7K+ RPM is possible with the tuning mods that Jack has alluded to.

When you max out in 3rd, then change into 4th, your RPM will drop. If by more than 500 RPM, you are over geared. That's my understanding
22T clutch = 103 km/h at 7K RPM in 4th gear
22T clutch = 103 km/h at 7K RPM in 4th gear
23T clutch = 108 km/h at 7K RPM in 4th gear
23T clutch = 108 km/h at 7K RPM in 4th gear
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Hooked
'81 Vespa P200e, '85 Vespa PX125e, 1985 T5
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Wow. With my stock gearing and dr kit, there is no way I was hitting 100kph.

Lucky if I was hitting 90.

My engine failed when coming home on a long trip. A variety of reasons but I still have to find out exactly why. Currently I have no way of accurately assessing its speed.

Since I’m going to have to open the cases, I figured I would update the gear box to make it more bulletproof.
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Nelluch125 wrote:
Wow. With my stock gearing and dr kit, there is no way I was hitting 100kph.

Lucky if I was hitting 90.

My engine failed when coming home on a long trip. A variety of reasons but I still have to find out exactly why. Currently I have no way of accurately assessing its speed.

Since I’m going to have to open the cases, I figured I would update the gear box to make it more bulletproof.
Hopefully others will chime in with more information. If I were going to replace 4th in my Stella, with a DR177 I would have put in a lower 4th gear, then a taller clutch gear, to make the lower gears more useable with a 23 tooth gear. As others have said a 23 tooth is pushing maximum gearing, hills etc will slow you down, so will a head wind. At least on my DR177 it did.
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By any chance did you do a SEARCH on this topic?
Pretty sure there is about all you could ever know already in here, somewhere
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Hooked
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Christopher

Are you saying to leave the stock clutch gear (22T) and lower the number of teeth in the fourth gear?

I don’t want headwinds or hills to slow me down. Ideally would like to be able to handle them with a bit more ease if possible.

I have done a bit of searching on the forums. However others have different set ups than mine. So variables change and it’s a challenge to find what is right for my set up.

I figured those who have a similar set up to mine can chime in and share their thoughts.
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DRT does a 37T 4th, but it's a costly approach in this case, plus it means getting into the guts of the engine. In all honesty, your current setup is likely where it needs to be, but sounds like you have other issues to solve and tweaks to make
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Nelluch125 wrote:
Christopher

Are you saying to leave the stock clutch gear (22T) and lower the number of teeth in the fourth gear?

I don’t want headwinds or hills to slow me down. Ideally would like to be able to handle them with a bit more ease if possible.

I have done a bit of searching on the forums. However others have different set ups than mine. So variables change and it’s a challenge to find what is right for my set up.

I figured those who have a similar set up to mine can chime in and share their thoughts.
No,
I tried a 23 tooth clutch cog and it was not good anywhere except flat land with no hill or wind.

I liked 1,2 and 3 with a 23 tooth clutch cog.

4 th with a 23 tooth gear was to high geared.

I would put in a 4th gear that is closer to 3rd, so I didn't have a big gap between 3rd and 4th with a 23 tooth clutch cog.
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I have three dr177 set ups...all on 8 inch...so these findings dont apply to ten inch

By far the best (for top end of 105km/hr and torque and eating hills )is with 23 tooth clutch, 24 /24. and sip road.

The 22 tooth with same set up eats hills and wind and great for two up..but "runs out of legs about" around 90kms.....revs like hell after that with no more speed...so top speed of 90 occurs at just over 3/4 throttle......far better acceleration....so I use that scoot for around town rides to beat cars and motorbikes off the mark

..and another with 21 teeth which has even better acceleration , eats up hiils and wind in 4th...but then maxs out at around 85kms..but at least its not screaming.

Play with the gearing calculator

Swapping out the clutch cog is the easiest and quickest way to alter things with out a split
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Longer primary, 2 teeth less on 4th
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Jet Eye Master
PX221 MHR, O tuned PX200, PX181, PX125 and some motorbikes
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Jet Eye Master
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Nelluch125 wrote:
How can I determine how many rpms it’s doing?

I have no experience and very little understanding on gear ratios. So all help is appreciated.

Thank you.
If you get some GPS app on your phone and get the maximum speed in 3rd gear and maximum speed in 4th gear. Go to this website https://www.scooterhelp.com/tuning/vespa.gear.calc.html
And you'll be able to approximately calculate the rpm in both gears. The difference between the two rpms tell you how well geared it is. Which in your case will be terrible.

If you want to end up with speed, now might be the time to ditch the DR kit for something fast (like double the power and 8000rpm just bolted on).
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Hooked
'81 Vespa P200e, '85 Vespa PX125e, 1985 T5
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SubEtherBASS wrote:
Longer primary, 2 teeth less on 4th
Longer primary meaning more teeth in the primary gear?
This paired with less teeth on 4th gear equals more top speed?

Ditch the DR? Yeah should have never bought it. But I was green and still am learning.

What is a better suggestion for a kit that is bolt on and can give me 8000 rpm?
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You didn't say what your objectives are, just that you want more top speed. What would you like your top speed and cruising speed to be? That will determine what you will need to get there.
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Hooked
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swa45 wrote:
You didn't say what your objectives are, just that you want more top speed. What would you like your top speed and cruising speed to be? That will determine what you will need to get there.
I think the main objective would be higher top speed with lower 4th gear rpms. Ultimately would want this scooter to be my touring/long distance scoot.

I wasn’t getting more than 90kph and it was screaming. That’s a lot of stress on that engine for hours on end.
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Everyone has their favourite setup, but I can vouch for solid touring performance from the BGM 177 with 24/24e carb and a decent box pipe (your SIP R3 for example). I ran this with a 23T clutch and it would touch a genuine 70 mph (112 km/h) on demand. Great torque as well, so it would hold a good speed on inclines, into the wind and with a pillion on board.

The 'bolt on' bit is a bit more challenging. Mine had a mild sports crank and some porting and matching between case and cylinder.
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Food for thought - I have two DR177 powered bikes with the cases TIG welded and machined for a 3rd port. Both running a 20mm carb and BGM exhaust. I have machined the heads for 1.1 squish, 21cc, and the squish angle less horizontal. Both running the 22/67 gearing. They will run 55, they probably have a little more left in the tank . . . But not much.

Those setups were built well before the modern tuning cylinders came around for small block kits; BGM & VMC. If I were to do it all over again, those two cylinders would be money well spent. The BGM could be a bolt-on for your p125 cases. Possibly the VMC too (I have VMC gaskets here and could check against a set of p125 cases). Yes, you would get even more power out of these cylinder kits if the cases were TIG welded and matched to your cylinder ports. But dollars to donuts they outperform the ancient DR 177 cylinder as bolt & go.
⚠️ Last edited by GickSpeed on UTC; edited 2 times
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Hooked
'81 Vespa P200e, '85 Vespa PX125e, 1985 T5
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swa45 wrote:
Everyone has their favourite setup, but I can vouch for solid touring performance from the BGM 177 with 24/24e carb and a decent box pipe (your SIP R3 for example). I ran this with a 23T clutch and it would touch a genuine 70 mph (112 km/h) on demand. Great torque as well, so it would hold a good speed on inclines, into the wind and with a pillion on board.

The 'bolt on' bit is a bit more challenging. Mine had a mild sports crank and some porting and matching between case and cylinder.
You’re right. Everyone does have their fav set up.

No porting here. I’d go as far as match the airbox to the 24mm carb.
I do have a mazz crank in the engine but nothing special.

If This were as simple as changing the clutch gearing, I’d be golden.
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My two cents. The DR can deliver more with your existing 22T clutch gear and a 24/24e carb, but you're going to need some more work. Even without porting, you can raise the cylinder by 1-1.5mm and rework or change the head. The nature of the DR piston makes it inadvisable (but not impossible) to push the RPM past ~7200, so the 23T clutch may be the way to go. Usual caveats apply. Sounds like you want to keep the RPM down as you don't like the screaming. This means extra power to pull higher gearing

BTW, the 'longer primary' suggestion above most likely means swapping out to a 65T primary from a P200. This again is a lot of work. I have always stuck with the 68T primary in my PX150 engines and then used a 23T clutch where appropriate. If you go to town with a more powerful kit and other tuning parts, combinations like 65/23 and 64/23 would be a consideration
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UTC quote
I do not have tachometer, so I find these gearing calculators fascinating.

Is there a consensus about what the target rpm drop should be between 3rd and 4th gear? Swa45 said 500 rpm.

If others agree, my setup (Stella with cast iron Malossi 177 and stock gearing) is on or close to the mark. The scooterhelp calculator shows a drop from about 7500 rpm to a hair under 7000. The French calculator is more generous (perhaps implausibly so), and shows a drop from about 7800 to about 7200.
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I personally can’t decipher what that hearing calculator is trying to tell me......
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Nelluch125 wrote:
I personally can’t decipher what that hearing calculator is trying to tell me......
Their utility is limited. If you know your speed, they will approximate your rpm at that speed. If you know your rpm, they will approximate your speed at that rpm. For the lower gears, if you know your max rpm, they can approximate the effect gearing changes will have on max speed. That doesn't really work for 4th gear, though, because max rpm in 4th will change as gearing changes.

What is your max gps speed in 3rd and 4th?
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I tried on 23-tooth clutch on my Stella, with a Polini kit and an expansion chamber and 24mm carb. It was too tall, unless you revved the snot out of 3rd it wouldn't be able to pull very well in 4th.
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You're probably getting somewhat overwhelmed by suggestions here, but it really comes down to two things: go to town on the DR or change to a more powerful kit. Your decision will come down to investment and willingness/ability to do the work. My own approach would be to set up the DR to suit the 24mm carb and 23T clutch, because I would have little to lose if it didn't work out. My next move would be to buy a BGM 177, bolt it on, and be done with it.

For the record, my DR is raised by a 1.0 or 1.5mm base packer (cannot remember which), and I use a VMC zero squish head on top. That's a < £100 additional investment. The gearbox is 68/23. I am fairly light, so it works for me. My bike has the late PX ignition, so it's theoretically limited to 7000 RPM. Not too much screaming
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Nelluch125 wrote:
Longer primary meaning more teeth in the primary gear?
This paired with less teeth on 4th gear equals more top speed?

Ditch the DR? Yeah should have never bought it. But I was green and still am learning.

What is a better suggestion for a kit that is bolt on and can give me 8000 rpm?
Heres a bit from me about, primaries, gearing & tuning...
modify VBC1. 2-port - Fuel... Gimme MORE FUEL !

Thre is a fine balance with gearing, but I believe (& put my money into it) that having a LONG primary & very short 4th is the way to go... but it depends on how/where YOU ride & what you're trying to achieve.
Many think overall long gearing is great, but believe me, it's pointless! I did this on AnaKey (possibly search that keyword & something should pop up), & found of that The amount of times you can actually "get on the pipe" is minimal, mostly you stay in 3rd & lose all momentum when changing into 4th (or headwind/hills etc) & end up frustrated... ohh.... and if you ever do get on the pipe in 4th, you better have big kahoonas, as going over 130km/h (let alone 140km/h) on 10" wheels is sure a test, coz it's kinda scary.

The DR kit is a pretty good "starter kit", it's basic, & tough, pretty raw, YOU need to do the rest (porting, polishing, planing, squish, timing, chamfering and all sorts of other things of the Dark Arts), then play with the carb, crank, cases, clutch... then abuse the crap out of it... break something & start again... fun! I like it, plus it's cheap enough to destroy without breaking the bank.
Then there may be a chance of 8000rpm... that doesn't really come from simply bunging on a kit, otherwise all of us would have 8000rpm fire-breathers... it takes lots of modification, lots of breakages & heartache and an endless supply of money.
⚠️ Last edited by SubEtherBASS on UTC; edited 1 time
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Here's a few posts that may be helpful...

"Longer" 4th gear

Input shaft gearing
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Molto Verboso
71' Sprint Veloce , 05' Vespa PX150, 1978 P200E
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Molto Verboso
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Be very careful what you wish for!!! that is my best advise. Do a search on my username and you will find that I did the same thing 3 years ago. Here is the summary:

I had a 05 PX150 with a 166cc Malossi, my biggest complaint was that I said over and over that it felt that the engine was going to blow up at higher speeds. It had no problem topping up at around 70-75 mph (speedometer indicated) but it was about 10 mph less according to the GPS. People advised me: "Let it rev!!! what is the problem?" let it rev!!"

My gut told me that when I jumped on the hwy I felt that I was forcing the engine at too high of the revs but like I said, the engine ran healthy but it sounded way to high reved.

Fast forward and I swapped motors. I put in a powerful P200E new engine case with a newer Malossi 221 kit, 26 carb, expansion chamber. Now the scooter accelerates quicker and has more noticeable torque, it will reach 60 mph in 9-10 seconds but when you switch to 4th gear at around 65 mph the engine has trouble reving and it seems like the gears are too tall and I hit a combo of :

1) gears too tall
2) wind
3) hitting below ideal power curve at 65 mph


It is the classic example of some sports car that can get higher top speed in 5th gear rather than super tall 6th gear. I am not saying I can get pass 65 mph but it takes too much longer, much worse than when I had the Malossi 166cc on the shorter PX150 gear ratios because before at 65mph I was at the peak of the power range.

At the end of the day it is a gamble that you have to be willing to take. It depends on your driving style and what are you going to do. If you just want taller gears to cruise at lower RPM I guess that will work but lower gears also have an advantage. We have riders on this forum that have trouble climbing hills, in this case shorter gears are your friend because the tall gear in my opinion at certain speeds will make it worst in 4th on hilly roads.


I am ordering a RPM (tachometer) soon, I want to be able to see where my revs are. I also use two GPS devices, one of them is called dragy and it is strictly for measuring acceleration, distance and roll acceleration, you should look into it.

By the way, about two months ago I completely topped the speedometer on the PX150 with the 210cc, I wasn't event trying, I just happened to be merging into traffic on the highway, pulled behind a semi that happened to be on the hwy then I hit a sigh downhill and when I looked at the speedometer it was at the 80 mph mark and I wasn't even at full throttle at all but I ran into optimal conditions and the scooter did not felt like I was going at max.
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
Sip road 3.0 is not good idea for DR177. It designed for more powerful cylinders.

On my 1981 P150X(DR177(p'n'p), malossi cylinder head, sip road 2, sip touren flywheel, 24/24 drilled carb, mazzucchelli racing crankshaft) I tried 23/68 and its not good, too long on 4 gear. So I go back to 22/68 and everythig flies good, cruising speed 85-90 km/h and top is 105 km/h by GPS.

I think the 23/68 will be good with short 4th gear, cog from T5?
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