OP
@amateriat avatar
UTC

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2015 GTS 300 Super (Melody: 2015-2021, RIP), 2022 GTS SuperTech (Thelonica; bit the dust 02-22-23)
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@amateriat avatar
2015 GTS 300 Super (Melody: 2015-2021, RIP), 2022 GTS SuperTech (Thelonica; bit the dust 02-22-23)
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@guzzi_gal avatar
UTC

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Gigi, '13 GTS 300ie Touring
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Location: Phoenix, AZ.
 
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@guzzi_gal avatar
Gigi, '13 GTS 300ie Touring
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UTC quote
I don't understand how that will change anything.
@mayorofnow avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
2020 GTS 300 HPE
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Molto Verboso
@mayorofnow avatar
2020 GTS 300 HPE
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UTC quote
Vision Zero is a bit of a buzzword in urban planning circles. As I understand, it's rooted in a Dutch design philosophy that segregates road usage by class: heavy transit, cars/trucks, bicycles/motos, and pedestrians all have their own infrastructure (rails, roads, cycletracks, sidewalks). Crashes are (hopefully) less severe if you're traveling with a similar speed and exposure as what you collide with.

I say buzzword, because it seems like it's used as a political talking point here. Politicians say "Vision Zero" this-or-that all the time, but before the pandemic, there were very few design changes to actually classify traffic by vulnerability. At least now we have a handful of "slow streets," which discourage motorized traffic (although there are zero penalties for driving on a slow street, so they aren't always heeded).

I'd be curious to see if the penalties are worse if you harm somebody more vulnerable than you are, and what the actual impact on people's behavior is. We all know how many drivers these days can't be bothered to keep their attention on the road.
OP
@amateriat avatar
UTC

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2015 GTS 300 Super (Melody: 2015-2021, RIP), 2022 GTS SuperTech (Thelonica; bit the dust 02-22-23)
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@amateriat avatar
2015 GTS 300 Super (Melody: 2015-2021, RIP), 2022 GTS SuperTech (Thelonica; bit the dust 02-22-23)
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UTC quote
mayorofnow wrote:
Vision Zero is a bit of a buzzword in urban planning circles. As I understand, it's rooted in a Dutch design philosophy that segregates road usage by class: heavy transit, cars/trucks, bicycles/motos, and pedestrians all have their own infrastructure (rails, roads, cycletracks, sidewalks). Crashes are (hopefully) less severe if you're traveling with a similar speed and exposure as what you collide with.

I say buzzword, because it seems like it's used as a political talking point here. Politicians say "Vision Zero" this-or-that all the time, but before the pandemic, there were very few design changes to actually classify traffic by vulnerability. At least now we have a handful of "slow streets," which discourage motorized traffic (although there are zero penalties for driving on a slow street, so they aren't always heeded).

I'd be curious to see if the penalties are worse if you harm somebody more vulnerable than you are, and what the actual impact on people's behavior is. We all know how many drivers these days can't be bothered to keep their attention on the road.
That's the key thing here: NYC's "Vision Zero" project was supposed to be something of a mix of public awareness and traffic enforcement, and I can tell you firsthand that, so far, while I've seen a lot of the former, I've seen virtually zero (sorry) of the latter, with flagrant running of stop/yield signs, and, of course, speeding, being too close to the norm. (Here, in Asbury, I've seen my share of on-the-road idiocy, but with twist: when I was still a Noo Yawker, I thought that New Jersey was the source of people driving like overly-entitled jerks; after six years here, guess what? It's the folks with NY plates pulling the worst dick-moves on wheels.)

At least the electronic signs along the Garden State Parkway frequently remind motorists to "Watch For Motorcycles."
⚠️ Last edited by amateriat on UTC; edited 2 times
@znomit avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX190 Friday afternoon special, [s]Primavera[/s], S50, too many pushbikes
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
@znomit avatar
LX190 Friday afternoon special, [s]Primavera[/s], S50, too many pushbikes
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UTC quote
In Thailand the blame for a crash is usually laid upon the biggest vehicle. That’s how the scooter chaos is possible without major carnage.
@sledge avatar
UTC

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GTS 300 HPE
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@sledge avatar
GTS 300 HPE
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UTC quote
Vision Zero sounds like SMIDSY.
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Triumph Bonneville 2022, Triumph Street Scrambler 2018 (sold), Suzuki VanVan200 (sold), 2015 Sprint 125 (sold)
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@rrider avatar
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UTC quote
Good intention, at least.

Around here the innermost areas of cities often have a 30 km/h zone (19 mph), or 40 km/h zone. That's mainly to protect pedestrians and bicyclists.

Cars have a bit different role in daily transportation & commuting here, so highways are less of an issue. All are equal... allthough courts of law apply more sever penalties for recless behaviour the heavier vehicle is in question & the more potential casualties you'll get. So a violation of rules is more severe if you'll drive a big truck compared to driving a small personal car.

Motorcycles are actually treated surprisingly well here at highways... car drivers have a typical problem of tailgating, but motorcycles are often given a bit more slack....mayby they are considered to be more unpredictable. I do admit that if I'll e.g. strech may legs by standing up while riding (with my current bike that allows this), the car behind me typically gives me a bitmore slack
@mayorofnow avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
2020 GTS 300 HPE
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Molto Verboso
@mayorofnow avatar
2020 GTS 300 HPE
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UTC quote
Do they enforce 19mph? Do people go that slowly?

In the US, the only time you see traffic moving that slowly on purpose is near a school. School zones have a reputation for nasty tickets. In fact, grumpy neighbors sometimes try to get the school zone extended to their streets (even if not adjacent to a school) to keep through traffic away.
@rrider avatar
UTC

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@rrider avatar
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UTC quote
mayorofnow wrote:
Do they enforce 19mph? Do people go that slowly?

In the US, the only time you see traffic moving that slowly on purpose is near a school. School zones have a reputation for nasty tickets. In fact, grumpy neighbors sometimes try to get the school zone extended to their streets (even if not adjacent to a school) to keep through traffic away.
It is enforced, could always be better though. Both with automatic cameras ( not that much, those are mostly targeted to watch after driving against red traffic lights) and occasional manual radar patrols.

I think when the first slow speed zones appeared some years back, drivers were divided evenly into two camps - those who rode according to the new limits and those who stubbornly refused to apply them.

Now, year by year the limits are working better... I would say 80% of the drivers drive close to the limits (there's a margin before you'll get a ticket, most add that margin to their speed), 20% still do what they'll wish. Interestingly, even the latter probably drive a bit slower than they used to - they just seem to add some 'individual freedom factor' to whatever limit there is.
UTC

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2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
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UTC quote
Over here in the UK we have some of the safest roads in the world. For motorcycles too this is a great place to ride and very safe. In 1960 over 14,000 riders were killed in our country in just that year. Today (or in 2019 for last figures available) that figure was 331 riders killed, and that's inspite of their being far more riders on the roads today than in 1960.

If you analyse the figures further you can note that nearly one third of the riders killed did not have a motorcycle licence, had no training to ride, and or were killed evading capture after stealing a motorcycle. In other words, people riding illegally. It is a legal requirement that all riders wear an approved helmet. A few riders died because they did not have a helmet on. Motorcycle training is compulsory in the UK.

Of the further deaths 50% of those riders died in incidents that did not involve any other vehicle. Usually this was a rider going too fast into a corner and meeting his or her maker. Of the remaining deaths, these were mostly caused by contact with other vehicles and a variety of other circumstances.

The majority of riders who died were under 30 years of age.

The moral here is that we as riders really do have considerable control over how safe we are on the roads.

In the UK there is no such thing as an "accident". Someone or something is always to blame and that's how our police and investigators have to look at the situation. This approach has helped reduce incidents of all kinds over the decades. Whoever is to blame pays the price. That's how it should be. The new 'Highway Code' (which is admissible in law) is aimed at further promoting responsibility to drivers and road users. It actually works but it's taken a good amount of time to get here.
@johnymoore avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
Vespa PX 177 Settantesimo, Vespa GTS Super 300 HPE, Triumph Bobber Gold Line
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Molto Verboso
@johnymoore avatar
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UTC quote
The category you need to watch out for most here are other scooter riders. The food delivery guys such as Uber Eats etc. They don't seem to understand the difference between filtering and undertaking so you need to watch for them trying to squeeze past you on both sides while you are riding.
UTC

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2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
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2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
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UTC quote
That's true johny.
@jimc avatar
UTC

Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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@jimc avatar
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
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UTC quote
mayorofnow wrote:
Do they enforce 19mph? Do people go that slowly?
Many if not most residential streets in London UK are 20 mph now. And yes, it gets enforced by cameras. Personally I feel it's too slow - 25 mph would be OK, as it is here, but the UK doesn't do 5 mph gradations in speed limits.
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UTC quote
jimc wrote:
Many if not most residential streets in London UK are 20 mph now. And yes, it gets enforced by cameras. Personally I feel it's too slow - 25 mph would be OK, as it is here, but the UK doesn't do 5 mph gradations in speed limits.
I try to avoid driving in the closest city proper, too crowded for my taste.
When we drive there for shopping, we often joke with my wife that if she is in a hurry, she should jump out and walk ahead...

From a pedestrian viewpoint, which I am too after parking the car, I actually do like the slow limit myself.
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UTC

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2020 MP3 500 HPE Sport ABS/ASR
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UTC quote
Here, we have this law that I'm sure seemed like a good idea at the time but now ... not so much.

Speed limits on streets are re-set to a speed that 85 percent of drivers drive at or below. So if the limit is 35 mph, but 85 percent of drivers go 40 mph, the limit gets raised to 40. Of course, then, if 85 per cent of the drivers now go 45, it gets raised again.

The idea is that drivers will naturally find the safe speed for any given street.

Yeah, right.

This law is now being rethought.
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UTC

Hooked
Polaris Grey Rally 200, Blue Marine Primavera ET3, Coral Red 50 Special
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Hooked
@rallygeek avatar
Polaris Grey Rally 200, Blue Marine Primavera ET3, Coral Red 50 Special
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UTC quote
jimc wrote:
Many if not most residential streets in London UK are 20 mph now. And yes, it gets enforced by cameras. Personally I feel it's too slow - 25 mph would be OK, as it is here, but the UK doesn't do 5 mph gradations in speed limits.
Yes 20mph feels really slow and is hard to keep to. I don’t really enjoy it very much but it keeps me off the underground.

The 300 GTS is just idling at that speed and doesn’t feel as stable. The other annoying thing is at that speed you are passed by cyclists on carbon fibre bikes and people on battery assisted bicycles.
@der_blechfahrer avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
ET3 & PX150 & GTS 300 Super Sport MY23 & Yamaha Neo's electric
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Posts: 1881
Location: Berlin
 
Molto Verboso
@der_blechfahrer avatar
ET3 & PX150 & GTS 300 Super Sport MY23 & Yamaha Neo's electric
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Location: Berlin
UTC quote
Most of Berlin is 30 km/h these days. Only the larger connecting roads are 50 km/h. Which was my complaint for a long time, because if you want to get anywhere, you start in a slow zone, but you soon have to go on the faster roads and then your last leg would be in a slow zone again. No leisurely riding in slow traffic if you needed to get anywhere outside your neighbourhood.

Cars in the 50 km/h streets drive so fast, I have to do 70 km/h indicated on the GTS to keep up. Yes, the speedo is optimistic, but not that much. I could not do it on the 50 cc Vespa. I was either holding up traffic or being constantly overtaken. I also never ride the ET3 anymore. It's fast enough, but the poor brakes require a lot of distance to the car in front and people take that as an invitation to cut in in front of me, making me fall back further.

A few years ago, many of the thoroughfares got a nighttime speed limit of 30 km/h from 10 pm to 5 am, officially to keep the noise down. The latest thing is extending the 30 km/h to all day.

Our next elections are in September. Some parties want to make the whole city a 30 km/h zone. You want to get somewhere fast, take the train.
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