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PeterCC wrote:
That is not a matter of selling per liter.
I point it out because one station varying by 10¢ from the next is common in the US, but those same variances are effectively quadrupled here where the units quoted are smaller.
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mayorofnow wrote:
I point it out because one station varying by 10¢ from the next is common in the US, but those same variances are effectively quadrupled here where the units quoted are smaller.
10 cents per gallon? Then there seems to be not much competition between the petrol stations in the US.
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Brand is a thing in the US too. It's not uncommon for Chevron to be 30-50¢ more per gallon than AM/PM (Arco).

There's a corner in San Francisco that has an AM/PM, a 76, and (until recently) a Shell. The 76 is routinely like 20¢ per gallon more expensive, and the AM/PM has a line around the block. I often fill the Vespa at the 76 to avoid the crowd.
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Price of Fuel

Taxes and national policy is what is significantly impacting gas at the pump here in the USA. In search of a Greener Clean Environment our government, in the last six months,
has closed pipeline projects, restricted oil exploration and reduced tax credit/incentives
for the development of fossil fuels.

Fortunately or unfortunately, the USA needs no oil from anywhere. We have it
under our feet and close offshore. The movement from $2.00 a gallon to $3.00 a gallon
(50% increase) in the last 6 months is predominantly driven by government policy.

I have one reservation. I watch the Bloomberg Business News (Asia). Evidently
our Chinese friends are desperately short of Natural Gas LP to the point it is impacting
the shut down of manufacturing plants. What an opportunity - the USA has one of
the largest natural supplies of LP Gas and we had been exporting it out of California to
Asia. The USA was energy independent for the first time in 75 years. We could be
making big money off of China - but policies have changed.

I would have loved to impact the trade relationship with China

My 2 cents of knowledge - Europe fuel price - policy - taxes/supply.
USA fuel price - policy.

Sorry for the lengthy post.

Bob Copeland
It is darn cold up here in Minnesota. We like low fuel prices.
who cares about fuel costs - drive a scooter.
who cares about fuel costs - drive a scooter.
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Put $3 of 93 octane in my LXV Tuesday, 9/28, at 3.79/gal. Short rides to and from work means that gas will last me a while and rain tomorrow means the car is the work transport. And central Illinois is the location.
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Last week I was in Lake George for Americade. There was a Stewart's gas station selling non ethanol Premium for $4.00 a gallon. My bike never ran so good.
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Our local prices in Wales has just topped 8.54 usd since the panic buying by the headless chickens .
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PeterCC wrote:
It is already for days in the news here that there are problems with fuel supply in the UK and long cues at the petrol stations.

Seems absurd to me. Probably the result of mutual hoarding based on misunderstandings and rumours. (in Dutch hoarding is "hamsteren" and the word refers to the animal the hamster that collects as much food as it can find in the cheeks).

In the beginning of the lockdown there was this story about toilet paper that became completely sold out in Australia. Everybody laughing. But believe it or not some time later also here in Belgium toilet paper became almost impossible to find, all based on a rumour.
All of this, and fed by media showing long queues, empty shelves etc. But yes, very easy to get political.
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My Vespa is my sole form of transportation, other than a bicycle. Avoiding the expense of continued car ownership is the primary reason I bought it. I filled up in my L.A. neighborhood a couple days ago and it was 4.29 a gallon. When gas prices spike lots of other costs go up commensurate with that, but you know? I used to drive a V8 Mercury that got like 12MPG. Honestly glad to be rid of it!
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You should think yourselves all very lucky. Due to the recent fuel " shortage" in the UK some gas station franchisees have been taking advantage of peoples desperation for fuel and on a recent visit to some local services a friend was charged £1.69 per litre for Super Unleaded because that's all they had left.

A day later it ran out.

So if that's £1.69 x 4.5 litres per gallon that's £7.60 per Imperial Gallon. If it's 1.35 Dollars to the Pound that's $10.26 a gallon.

One thing is for sure when things return to normal the price isn't going to go back to where it was is it ?

The best time right now to get fuel is 5am when no one is up and heading out with prior knowledge as to who has fuel via WhatsApp.

Welcome to the United Kingdom.
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My car (Fiat 500 X 1.6 cc fueled by lpg 110 hp) has a fixed annual insurance cost of € 600 (minimum legal liability only), € 230 of fixed annual government tax and minimum annual technical assistance of approximately 230 € (oil and filters).
My scooter, (if you do not have to change belts and more) costs me € 200 per year for insurance, € 21 for a fixed government tax and (on average) € 60 - € 80 for annual technical service (oil and checks).
The problem in the UK, from what I understand from hearing the news, is that there are no drivers for vehicles carrying fuel.
⚠️ Last edited by Attila on UTC; edited 1 time
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How is that connected to fuel prices ?
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The thread is that partly using small vehicles or cars with smaller engines, and better if powered by alternative fuels, helps the market to spread fuel prices down; oil companies cannot hold large quantities of unsold fuel if consumption drops dramatically.
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Well they can. They did it just before the economy stalled. They parked up all the tankers in the estuary and waited for the price of oil to go up which took around nine months.

Many sellers where just dumping it at a loss just to get it off their books.

Oil prices go down when the demand goes down. When demand goes up the price rises which is why OPEC is limiting production right now so that they can make a rake on demand.
⚠️ Last edited by Bill Dog on UTC; edited 1 time
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Our laws don't allow it. And here I stop otherwise we need to talk about politics.
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It doesn't have anything to do about the Law. It's about demand and economics.

If you take oil out of the ground and transport it much of the time the oil remains unsold until it reaches port but if demand falls while it's at sea it still belongs to you even though it's value has dropped.

Now the economy is rebuilding demand has risen and so the price has gone up. OPEC knows this and is having a good giggle at our expense.

It's the economics of a free market.

Worth watching.
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https://www.arezzonotizie.it/attualita/prezzo-metano-gpl-1-ottobre-2021.html

In Italy:
Sensational rise on fuels. There has been a generalized increase in prices over the last 24 hours with increases of up to 100% on methane. But there are upturns (much more contained, up to 10%) also with regard to LPG. "The fault is due to the price of raw materials", explains Lucio Gori, representative of the Faib (Italian Autonomous Federation of Petrol Operators) of Confesercenti in Arezzo. This morning, motorists of cars with methane-powered engines, for example, saw the price at the filling station soar over 2 euros per kilo (reaching up to 2.2 euros), when it floated just above the euro threshold. 24 hours before. The increases were patchy in the province of Arezzo, those who had reserves perhaps managed to maintain a lower price for a few hours, well below two euros per kilo. "But soon all prices will be aligned upwards - continues Gori -. And unfortunately the owners of the petrol stations are not to blame. They can only adapt to the new costs. Unfortunately the Government has managed to calm the increases on the gas and electricity bills acting on the final price, while it cannot act upstream, on the prices of raw materials ". And so a full tank of methane doubled. An increase in prices that will have large impact consequences: primarily on consumption, but also on the cost of other products, due to the increase in the cost of transport for all materials transferred with methane-powered vehicles. And with the start of the ecological transition, many had bet on this type of automotive power supply.

The reasons for the increase in fuel prices
"The reasons for the increase in fuel prices - says Confesercenti - are related to the increase in raw materials that is being recorded globally. The growth in prices depends on the increase in world demand that has been growing for some months. , that is, since the Covid emergency seems, at least partially, to have subsided. Price increases that will not hint, in forecasts, to decrease (unless producers decide to increase production) given that (if the evolution of the pandemic continues with a decrease in cases and deaths) demand should grow further in the coming months. To this it must be added that Italy is one of the countries where excise duties on petrol are among the highest ".
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My observations here in Florida are that most people are in a hurry to stop at a red light. Like playing chess, I try to prevent hard breaking(both van and scoot) and I'm happy if I can stay out of 1st gear(in my van). You see a red light ahead, you take your foot off the gas,DUH!
This idiocracy not only wastes gas but causes unneeded wear on brakes. What ever happened to coming together for the common good that we've seen in WW1, WW2, Korean war and the oil embargo of the 1970's?

U.S.A. life, liberty and the pursuit of narcissism
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... come on ... not only in the US, we are all a bit narcissistic not that this helps us to divide the responsibilities.
We are all more or less guilty.
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breaknwind wrote:
What ever happened to coming together for the common good that we've seen in WW1, WW2, Korean war and the oil embargo of the 1970's?
It is my opinion that the United States is no longer capable of agreeing on what "common good" means, let alone coming together and actually working toward that shared goal. This is, to me, a sure sign that the American Experiment is nearing a conclusion.

We've lost the sense that we're all in this together, and so we've effectively lost.
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Miguel wrote:
Just a thought on that... In 2008, scooters were probably the cheapest mode of powered transportation.
Miguel
Far from it. A new Buddy was over $3k in 2006 and in 08 everything was up. Decent non runners were dirt cheap. I bought a Buddy 125 for $330 that needed $400 in parts and upgrades, 2 hours work and flipped it for $1,600.

If you knew some pretty basic wrenching (starter and stator on the Buddy) it was a killer time to flip bikes for a premium price.
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jess wrote:
It is my opinion that the United States is no longer capable of agreeing on what "common good" means, let alone coming together and actually working toward that shared goal. This is, to me, a sure sign that the American Experiment is nearing a conclusion.

We've lost the sense that we're all in this together, and so we've effectively lost.
Agree. Having worked internationally it seems that countries that have a year or two of "national service" have a much greater sense of "we" over "me".
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In the Netherlands 1 liter of E10 costs > 2 Euro per liter. More than half of it is tax.
Premium fuel is even more expensive.

In the USA it's still relatively cheap compared to here
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I have the perverse idea that they are trying to make us pollute less by raising fuel prices.
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Attila wrote:
I have the perverse idea that they are trying to make us pollute less by raising fuel prices.
Nah, they're only after your money to finance more stupid ideas to help the environment
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Jess,

I am more optimistic about the USA. The struggle back and forth is not a bad thing.
The current common good is also not bad if partially judged by all the folks illegally
flooding across the border. In terms of agreeing on the future common good, I don't
mind a little legislative paralysis. Agreeing on what makes common sense seems
to be more endangered than how the future common good is defined.

Problem, if fuel prices go insane, I can not ride the Vespa up here in the Winter.

Tuinkabouter,

I think you are on to something. A bunch of feel good activity going on that
does nothing to really improve the environment.

Bob Copeland
Hey, the highest I got in government was student government in High School.  I was the treasurer of my senior class.  Full disclosure - I was impeached when a class funds check came back cashed at a local liquor store. We needed beer to decorate for a dan
Hey, the highest I got in government was student government in High School. I was the treasurer of my senior class. Full disclosure - I was impeached when a class funds check came back cashed at a local liquor store. We needed beer to decorate for a dan
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My small 5 kW photovoltaic system allows me to save on the cost of electricity ... Not such a stupid idea ...
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Attila wrote:
I have the perverse idea that they are trying to make us pollute less by raising fuel prices.
What do you mean with pollute less?
Air pollution by traffic is today negligible.

We had the proof of that last year during the first lockdown: 80 to 85% less traffic, an unthinkable experiment under normal circumstances, but a benefit for air quality could not be proven.

This is a link https://www.irceline.be/nl/nieuws/impact-van-de-coronamaatregelen-op-de-luchtkwaliteit
It is in Dutch, sorry for that, but there is google translate. Irceline is the government organization that monitores the air quality.

In the investigation they focus on NOx, because as it is explained, the link between NOx and traffic is the strongest. If no effect can be proven for NOx then for sure no effect can be proven for amongst other PM (particulate matter) because the link to traffic is much weeker. That is what they say.

At the end of the article you will see that they used a model calculation to state the lockdown must have brought benefit for air quality.
In my simple mind I think that if a model is not able to predict reality, then the model is worth nothing and should best be thrown in the waste bin.
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I'm not saying it's true (or false) but the tendency is to make us abandon endothermic engines in favor of electric ones. How do they do it?
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Attila wrote:
I'm not saying it's true (or false) but the tendency is to make us abandon endothermic engines in favor of electric ones. How do they do it?
That is the overall idea, yes.
One of the problems is that worldwide the electricity grids are hopelessly outdated to cope with the increase of power consumption and also delivery from solar panels.
Another big problem is the lack of capacity to produce enough true renewable energy.

I don't think that lowering CO2 emissions is a bad idea but i'm not 100% convinced anymore that it will counter climate change. Climate change is also a natural phenomena that has occurred countless time in the history of our planet.
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The powers that be will just tax ICE vehicles off the road. Not only at the point of sale but yearly.

To ensure that the Government in Norway didn't lose too much money from the increase in Electric Powered Vehicles they decided to tax them by weight rather than not at all like they do in the UK.

So No, you can't win no matter what you drive.

On the point of Solar Panels after about 20 years the converters need replacing which will often negate the savings you've made.
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Bill Dog wrote:
On the point of Solar Panels after about 20 years the converters need replacing which will often negate the savings you've made.
That's called FUD.
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... so many things can happen in 20 years ...
I look at the life cycle of the present and yes, I make plans for the future but I see more immediate benefits; my panels are guaranteed for a residual yield of 70% after 20 years and I currently sell my "residual" production to the electricity management body with a defined "exchange on site" contract.
Practically the electricity not consumed by me is paid to me (there is a system of electronic meters) and the plant is paid at 50% with a state and European incentive and the remainder in installments over twenty years (duration of the exchange contract) .
For the subsidized interest rate, I chose Deutsche Bank.
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Tuinkabouter wrote:
That is the overall idea, yes.
One of the problems is that worldwide the electricity grids are hopelessly outdated to cope with the increase of power consumption and also delivery from solar panels.
Another big problem is the lack of capacity to produce enough true renewable energy.

I don't think that lowering CO2 emissions is a bad idea but i'm not 100% convinced anymore that it will counter climate change. Climate change is also a natural phenomena that has occurred countless time in the history of our planet.
The major issue indeed is that there is simply and by very far not enough renewable energy. That is the number one issue to solve first.

Not cars or whatever else. Cars have only what is it a 10% share in greenhouse emissions. It is not the big thing, it is almost negligible. Whether they run on diesel or gasoline or on electricity (which is in practice produced by thermal power plants running on natural gas or coal) does not make much of a difference.
⚠️ Last edited by PeterCC on UTC; edited 1 time
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Attila wrote:
... so many things can happen in 20 years ...
I look at the life cycle of the present and yes, I make plans for the future but I see more immediate benefits; my panels are guaranteed for a residual yield of 70% after 20 years and I currently sell my "residual" production to the electricity management body with a defined "exchange on site" contract.
Practically the electricity not consumed by me is paid to me (there is a system of electronic meters) and the plant is paid at 50% with a state and European incentive and the remainder in installments over twenty years (duration of the exchange contract) .
For the subsidized interest rate, I chose Deutsche Bank.
What do you pay for the kWh that you consume from the net and what is the money you get for the kWh that you deliver to the net?

Here it is something like you pay 30 eurocents per kWh for what you extract from the net and you receive 3 eurocents per kWh for what you deliver.

And this 3 eurocents per kWh is a fair price. That is what real power plants get paid.
@attila avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8291
Location: Latina (Italy)
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@attila avatar
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8291
Location: Latina (Italy)
UTC quote
I have to look at the contract but I think, if I remember correctly, it was fair otherwise I wouldn't have done it.
In addition I do not pay the "alternative energy contribution" that everyone has on the bimonthly payment and the increases (in kwh) are not applied to me in proportion to the amount of energy sold ... a small additional saving.
The only big problem was that two years ago I had to change the inverter because it burned out (...made in the USA with chinese components... ) and I put an inverter made in Korea (South).
@chrisfromcle avatar
UTC

Hooked
2019 Primavera 150, 2019 Honda Super Cub 125, 2017 Honda Metropolitan, 1965 Honda Super Cub 50 CA102
Joined: UTC
Posts: 459
Location: NE Ohio, USA
 
Hooked
@chrisfromcle avatar
2019 Primavera 150, 2019 Honda Super Cub 125, 2017 Honda Metropolitan, 1965 Honda Super Cub 50 CA102
Joined: UTC
Posts: 459
Location: NE Ohio, USA
UTC quote
jess wrote:
We've lost the sense that we're all in this together, and so we've effectively lost.
Hey! I've got mah rytes!!

Chris from CLE
@attila avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8291
Location: Latina (Italy)
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@attila avatar
In garage: Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8291
Location: Latina (Italy)
UTC quote
No, never! There must be a solution ...
You are an inspiration for the free world, do not abandon us.
@dibiasio avatar
UTC

Addicted
2006 LX150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 685
Location: Los Angeles
 
Addicted
@dibiasio avatar
2006 LX150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 685
Location: Los Angeles
UTC quote
PeterCC wrote:
What do you mean with pollute less?
Air pollution by traffic is today negligible.

We had the proof of that last year during the first lockdown: 80 to 85% less traffic, an unthinkable experiment under normal circumstances, but a benefit for air quality could not be proven
Globally this is probably true but I can tell you that the air quality in Los Angeles was greatly improved during this time. Silver Lining.
@syd avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
GTS300 Super (Heinz) GTS250 Super (Bulger)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4791
Location: Tempe, AZ
 
Ossessionato
@syd avatar
GTS300 Super (Heinz) GTS250 Super (Bulger)
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4791
Location: Tempe, AZ
UTC quote
Best part of the pandemic (unless you are Pfizer, Moderna or J&J) traffic was soo light - at least for a while.
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