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The whole CVT transmission is completed by the weight roller moving from the bottom position *starting position ) to the top position (end position ) of variator.
The movement of the round roller is a hybrid motion of rolling and sliding; contrary, the motion of the slider is sliding only.


On this forum, someone thought rollers react faster than sliders. so the CVT changes gear faster. what do you think?
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Dr.Pulley wrote:
The movement of the round roller is a hybrid motion of rolling and sliding; contrary, the motion of the slider is sliding only.

So rollers slide. But sliders don't roll?
Sounds like an obvious choice for rollers then.
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znomit wrote:
So rollers slide. But sliders don't roll?
Sliders don't roll, but that's very much the point.
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rollers dont roll. they slide. thats why rollers get flat spots.

so yes, roller react to gear changes faster. there is less friction. sliders have lots of friction in comparison. but they dont get flat spots because they are already flat. they will literally last 15 times longer than rollers. seen sets with over 20k miles and there is yet no perceivable wear. the extra friction of slider means compared to a roller it acts lighter. meaning a 17 gram roller is not equal to a 17 gram slider. the slider will act like a lighter roller due to the extra friction it provides.

people who switch to sliders often say bike is so much smoother. and that is because the trans reacts slower which makes the bike feel substantially smoother.

sliders also widen your gear ratios that the cvt provides. this is why I personally like them. example if stock roller gives 1.5 underdrive to 1.5 overdrive. sliders can improve that to 1.6 to 1.6. which means its potentially quicker at take off and has higher potential top speed. kinda like going from a 5 speed trans to a 6 speed. the disadvantage of this is on the GTS trans the extra gear ratio pushes belt higher on the pulley and the belt can rub the transmission housing. to prevent this a suitable size washer is needed in between the pulleys to prevent this from happening. the washer also gives the bike a much improved takeoff and midrange punch. its quite surprising actually.

second potential problem with sliders is they can flip. I have installed sliders in a dozen bikes. pleased with every install. on one bike my yamaha majesty I installed the sliders upside down. later I found two sliders that flipped. so i am not yet convinced they flip for any other reason that being installed wrong. mechanic error is most likely the reason. if they indeed flip after a proper install I can only think of one plausible reason. locking the back brakes combined with rapid rpm drop of engine. when back tire stops spinning the centrifugal clutch is still connected to drum. so the forward motion of belt is suddenly slammed into reverse motion. slack at bottom suddenly becomes slack on top. combine that with engine rpm drop and the front pulley will snap open in rapid fashion. allowing sliders free fall from their top gear position to low speed position. this is just the theory I created in my head. would require filming this happening with a camera and the cvt cover off. not an easy task. so it will remain a theory till I here a better one. normal operation of cvt there is always friction (from centrifugal force) on both sides of slider/roller.

I personally believe but cant prove the reason sliders arent installed on many bikes at factory is because they know they last a long time. plastic rollers are dirt cheap to make. they LOVE to sell you knew ones every 10k. sliders will likely last 150000 miles on some bikes. not kidding. was a trade show once talking to a owner of a clutch manufacture. i was asking why they didnt sell clutches with a kevlar/carbon material that i knew lasted ridiculously long compared to typical organic clutches. he was honest. he said i have customers that come back every 1.5 years to buy a new clutch. some six and seven times. " I wouldnt make as much money if i sold a clutch and the customer never came back"
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Where is the difference in friction between rollers and sliders coming from?
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znomit wrote:
So rollers slide. But sliders don't roll?
Sounds like an obvious choice for rollers then.
movement of round rollers—a hybrid of rolling and sliding
: need the energy of 1/2*MV2 (ie. 1/2 M*V*V) for rolling and 2* F*S for sliding,
(F: force; S: length of roller ramp)
---total energy needed is 1/2MV2 + 2* F*S

movement of Sliders—only sliding
: need the energy of 2* F*S for sliding,
--total energy needed is 2* F*S

The energy needed for SR is less, can it mean Slider reacts faster?
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Isn’t S in this case the distance between the plates? That’s the direction along which the force is exerted, not the length of the ramps.
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znomit wrote:
Isn’t S in this case the distance between the plates? That’s the direction along which the force is exerted, not the length of the ramps.
Briefly, i'll say S represents the distance of roller moving, between the lowest position and the highest position.

And it seems not easy to say which S is longer ? Slider or Round Roller ?

If we want to know which one reacts faster? firstly, we need to figure out which one takes less energy.
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jerryd wrote:
rollers dont roll. they slide. thats why rollers get flat spots.

so yes, roller react to gear changes faster. there is less friction. sliders have lots of friction in comparison. but they dont get flat spots because they are already flat. they will literally last 15 times longer than rollers. ----- its quite surprising actually. ---

second potential problem with sliders is they can flip. I have installed sliders in a dozen bikes. pleased with every install. on one bike my yamaha majesty ------

I personally believe but cant prove the reason sliders arent installed on many bikes at factory is because they know they last a long time. plastic rollers are dirt cheap to make. they LOVE to sell you knew ones every 10k. sliders will likely last 150000 miles on some bikes.----- he said i have customers that come back every 1.5 years to buy a new clutch. some six and seven times. " I wouldnt make as much money if i sold a clutch and the customer never came back"
Here, the saying of "less friction" about round roller as "so yes, roller react to gear changes faster. there is less friction." is not so exact.
The roller located between two surfaces ,A)roller ramp surface and B) ramp plate surface;
situation 1) roller rolling on surface A, then the roller is sliding against surface B; 2)roller rolling on surface B, then the roller is sliding against surface A. If it's correct then there're two slidings and one rolling when round roller is moving from bottom to the top position.

Do you think there're really two slidings in round roller ?
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Quote:
Do you think there're really two slidings in round roller ?
yes I do think roller doesnt roll. under acceleration they are wedged between the ramp and plate. they do slide farther on the ramp surface. ramp surface is longer than plate surface.
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We need that see through carburettor guy to build a variator.
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I call sliders "voodoo rollers" and have never really bought into them. I've tried them on modded Zuma 2-strokes and honestly I couldn't tell a difference. But I have a friend who swears by them. I'll stick to my boring old round rollers. Tried and proven for me.
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znomit wrote:
So rollers slide. But sliders don't roll?
Sounds like an obvious choice for rollers then.
Rollers don't roll. Both contact points move in the same direction so rolling is impossible. They can rattle around at idle maybe.

------------------------------------------------

These ones don't flip. The little side projections ride on top of the variator "channels". Preventing any rotation.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
⚠️ Last edited by waspmike on UTC; edited 1 time
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waspmike wrote:
Rollers don't roll. Both contact points move in the same direction so rolling is impossible. They can rattle around at idle maybe.
This.
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rollers rattle at idle not when new. they rattle when worn unequally. centrifugal force is lowest at idle. the thicker rolls stay wedged and quiet. the more worn thinner rolls rattle.
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jerryd wrote:
rollers rattle at idle not when new. they rattle when worn unequally. centrifugal force is lowest at idle. the thicker rolls stay wedged and quiet. the more worn thinner rolls rattle.
this is unequivocal bullshittery.

brand new rollers in a brand new vario rattle. fact.

also, the only time they make *real* noise is when they're so wore the fuck out that they're metal on metal-- ie, the plastic has pulled off of them, and guess what? by then your entire vario is roached. so you get all new shit, that guess what: rattles.

look, if I'm in there to check the rollers, unless they be damn near perfect you get new ones. I'm not busting out my calipers to check how close your are to spec. mannnn if you're that up tight about $20 do it your fucking self and roll around on the ground for half an hour. and usually if I'm there, you need a belt anyway. or here's the number for my tow guy.

there's two kinds of rollers I've seen: just fine, ship it or wasted.
there's two kinds of belts I've seen: oh this is wasted and needs replaced or this is in pieces

don't be talking out the side of your neck like rollers make more noise when they get .025mm smaller.
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calm down hotrod. I am speaking from experience. I have had several bikes with badly worn rollers, once replaced the rattle is gone. the rollers werent worn .025mm. some had flat spots that made the roller 1-2mm smaller.

I have also had bikes that rattled at idle and when dismantled found rollers were not worn at all. there are other parts of cvt that wear that cause rattles. in short new bikes dont come with rattling cvt's.

the only bullshittery of my post is YOUR response to it.
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jerryd wrote:
calm down hotrod. I am speaking from experience. I have had several bikes with badly worn rollers, once replaced the rattle is gone. the rollers werent worn .025mm. some had flat spots that made the roller 1-2mm smaller.

I have also had bikes that rattled at idle and when dismantled found rollers were not worn at all. there are other parts of cvt that wear that cause rattles. in short new bikes dont come with rattling cvt's.

the only bullshittery of my post is YOUR response to it.
okay slick, I'll play. why don't you get back to me after you've worked on, I dunno, a several thousand or so?

(anyway, I'll wait)

omg it rattled cuz they were wore the fuck out. can you imagine that!?? duh. there's a reason that they sell rollers in specific sizes. I mean, you're on line, so I'd think you'd know at least that. hopefully.

but genuinely I like the part where you explicitly back up my claim that rollers rattle no matter the state of the other components. real solid work there hombre.

i always wondered why you had negative karma. turns out you happen to be an argumentative asshole that knows nothing what so ever and likes to spout off about your one off instances when working on these bikes. which, cool.

cool.

cool.

fine and dandy. but your spread of misinformation (bullshittery) is total nonsense.

peddle your wares elsewhere, clown.
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jerryd wrote:
rollers rattle at idle not when new. they rattle when worn unequally. centrifugal force is lowest at idle. the thicker rolls stay wedged and quiet. the more worn thinner rolls rattle.
Your saying of "rollers rattle at idle not when new. they rattle when worn unequally" is correct, especially when the roller becomes triangle (serious worn).

If the size (diameter) becomes too small ,the CVT gear shift ratio will be totally different from the value of designed originally.
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sc00ter wrote:
I call sliders "voodoo rollers" and have never really bought into them. I've tried them on modded Zuma 2-strokes and honestly I couldn't tell a difference. But I have a friend who swears by them. I'll stick to my boring old round rollers. Tried and proven for me.
That is also my opinion.
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greasy125 wrote:
brand new rollers in a brand new vario rattle. fact.
also, ---
In our experience, this might happen, only when the metal insert in the weight roller is too loose due to 1)the moisture absorption of plastic cover is too high,or the OD of insert is smaller than the ID of roller cover.

If the insert is loose, you'll hear the "shaking sound of insert", when you shake the roller quickly beside your ear.
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The reason people don't notice improvement with sliders is. The ramp plate is made on a progressive die. When it shears off the plate, it leaves a burr on the edge of the ramp. WAG this is why sliders flip.
I deburr the edge of the ramp so it doesn't catch on the sliders and they move easier. It cuts down on wear and they last a long time. When the temp is above 85 f. I can get my stock Honda 150 to 75MPH on the flats with 13g sliders and a mid-screen. This is why I DIY. If time is money, some mechanics are not as detailed as the DIY'er.
When I remove the rear wheel, I tune up the drum brake by sanding the cam and shoe mating surfaces to 1500 grit smooth and put copper grease on the mating surfaces.
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greasy125 wrote:
brand new rollers in a brand new vario rattle. fact.
I've noticed this more with Piaggio variators than others.
So now Dr Pulley is trolling the forum... ROFL emoticon
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breaknwind wrote:
WAG this is why sliders flip.
Mine flipped when I was showing off to the wife by locking up and skidding the rear wheel.
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Motovista wrote:
So now Dr Pulley is trolling the forum... ROFL emoticon
How much is Sponsorship? I'll recommend it!
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waspmike wrote:
Mine flipped when I was showing off to the wife by locking up and skidding the rear wheel.
Will they flip back if you do it again?
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znomit wrote:
Will they flip back if you do it again?
Hahaha, would be really nice!

You don't need to lock wheel for them to flip, aggressive braking with rear wheel is enough...
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