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For some time now, when I hoe my garden, bullets from the Second World War have come out ...
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Have you ever found any Roman artifacts?
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Attila wrote:
For some time now, when I hoe my garden, bullets from the Second World War have come out ...
DON'T HOE DEEPER! Razz emoticon



It's always fascinating how much history is under our feet. WWII in particular. I find it interesting to see then/now photos of places (particularly ones I've been) at showing troops in the middle of a town or city which is now quiet and peaceful. Wasn't always so, and I'm sure WWII is often just a part of that story. We did burn through a ton of ammunition in WWII and beyond. According to Quora: "In World War II, U.S. factories cranked out, along with mountains of other munitions, about 41.4 billion rounds of small-arms ammunition, enough to permit the users to take about ten shots at every man, woman, and child alive on earth at that time."

So, depending on what the 1940s were like in your corner of the world, it's not surprising.

Wondering if there's any way to find their origin?
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I've done a bit of tidying of unnecessary posts.

I've done many tours of European war sites, mostly in France and Belgium. Are there such sites set apart in Italy?
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Cool!

The most exotic thing thats turned up in my garden is a Pepsi bottle from 1956.
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fledermaus wrote:
It's always fascinating how much history is under our feet.
When my wife and I visited the Alamo in San Antonio before we got married, it dawned on me while we were walking across the street from it to head to dinner that there was an extremely high chance that soldiers died in the battle where I was walking. And the city fathers just paved over it and built roads & buildings.

And I look at the "historical markers" in my community, commemorating the centennial of this or that, and I think, "wow, Europeans must think we're so quaint, to be commemorating something that's 'only' 100 years old."
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Jimc,

I did find a WW2 plaque honoring the 923 soldiers that died from the Polish Free 11 Corps
that were successful in the fourth assault on Monte Cassino.

Bob Copeland
Minnesota
Prior to this, I did not know a Polish Army Group was operating with the Allies.
Prior to this, I did not know a Polish Army Group was operating with the Allies.
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jimc wrote:
I've done a bit of tidying of unnecessary posts.

I've done many tours of European war sites, mostly in France and Belgium. Are there such sites set apart in Italy?
Unfortunately there are many commemorative ones and some themed museums:

in Latina city

http://pianadelleorme.com/pages/?page_id=129

http://pianadelleorme.com/pages/?page_id=254
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Cosmos wrote:
Have you ever found any Roman artifacts?
Yes, those too ... but they are more localized. Mainly pottery and Roman bricks but also bronze coins ... it depends on the area.
At the beach of Latina there is still a pier from the Roman era:

"The portion of the municipal territory closest to the coast is crossed by two almost parallel roads: the Litoranea and the Lungomare road
For both the Litoranea and the Lungomare, the hypothesis of an older origin is put forward, as the same area is crossed by the Via Severiana, which was built in the third century. A.D., to connect Ostia to Terracina using also river and lake passages (the Fossa Augusta of the Neronian age would also be part of it). In the light of known findings it is not possible to identify with certainty the ancient road with the Litoranea or the Lungomare, nor does the often incomplete or confused ancient cartography help us (where the Clostra Romana settlement, a late version of the Clostris statio della Severiana, was example located in different sites even if close). Perhaps the ancient road, forced to take a more tortuous path by the presence of estuaries and low-lying areas, could coincide with sections belonging now to one, now to the other of today's two roads. However, the stretch of the coast road that connects the rural center of Acciarella with Foceverde certainly does not follow the ancient road system, because it is proven that the Via Severiana passed through the settlement of Astura, a town close to the river, but more internal in the pine forest than the site of the current Torre Astura.
Before passing the Astura, the ancient river of Satricum, a pedestrian deviation is possible along the right bank of the river to its mouth, where you will find the pine forest grown on the ancient settlement of Astura and the remains of the roman villa are visible and its port, emerging around the current Torre Astura.
About halfway along the route it is possible to see the attack of the eighteenth-century bridge among the vegetation of the opposite bank, which collapsed a few decades after its construction, which in any case signals the previous crossing of the river by a road, almost certainly the Via Severiana, which then it proceeded up to the Torre di Foceverde with a path inside the current military zone.
Along the banks of the river Volsci and Romans had attested to the port, building mooring docks and trading posts, the remains of which were still visible in the 16th century, when the site functioned as a refuge for light boats.
The Astura, originating from the Alban Hills, crossing the entire plain and passing through Satricum, together with the Ancient River (whose use has been ascertained since prehistoric times) constituted the easiest access to the hinterland.
The hydrography of the area has been completely transformed, rectifying older rivers and canals, burying others, such as the Canale di Mastro Pietro, which until the last century had served to make the fresh water of Astura flow into Lake Fogliano during the summer months, when the fishmongers built there suffered from the lowering of the lake level.
Due to the presence of iron ores, there were open pit mines called Le Ferriere (from ferro, in English iron).

After all, the Ironworks, being inactive for those months, did not need the reach of the Astura for the functioning of the mallet. Another disappeared river is the one, parallel to the coast, which gave its name to the Tower of Foceverde, which found itself to be better protected thanks to this position of the watercourse. Designed and built at the expense of the Caetani by order of the Apostolic Chamber, in the plan of defense of the coast from pirates, the tower came into operation with its garrison between 1660 and 1670 and was rebuilt in 1681, when it assumed the appearance that still today it preserves.

The last raid dates back to 1702 and there is news of the capture of 60 pirates, who were placed at the oars of two papal galleys. 15m high, divided into 5 floors, it was made of stone and covered with a curtain "in the style of Rome"; was equipped with a bell to recall the garrison, a parade ground (the current terrace) reachable from the top floor with an internal spiral staircase and an armory, which together with that of Sermoneta will be sold by the Caetani to the State, destined for the Museum of Castel S.Angelo.
After the Mussolini canal, on the sea side the remains of the eighteenth-century bridge, which spanned the Foceverde river, are barely visible; due to its shape it was used until the beginning of the century as a landing stage for the loading of tall timber, of which the back woods were rich.
The bridge replaced an older one, made of wood, to which the Genoese docked when they came to buy timber for their arsenal.

Along the path just illustrated, in the Tabula Peutingeriana, the Roman itinerant table of the known world in the IV-VI century. AD, two stationes appear: Clostris, located 9 miles from Astura, and Ad Turres Albas, only 3 miles away from the previous one. Identified Ad Turres Albas, only 3 miles away from the previous one. Identified Ad Turres Albas with the Torre di Fogliano at the mouth of Rio Martino, at a distance of about 5 km. an attempt was made to identify Clostris, but the location is still uncertain, since the whole area has frequent settlements at least since the end of the Republican age; it is certain that the statio was identified near an important lock, as the toponym suggests. However, the presence of two stationes only 3 miles apart shows that crossing the territory should not have been easy.
The funerary epigraph of Kamenius is certainly the most interesting find: discovered in 1884, the tomb of Alfenius Ceionius Kamenius Julanus returned material from the fourth century. A.D., together with the inscription dedicated to him by his wife. Kamenio was consul and governor in Africa and priest of various pagan cults (he also underwent a trial on charges of magic); he lived in Rome on the Quirinale and had his estate in Fogliano, where he died in 385 AD. at the age of 42. Examining the reverse of the epigraph, we note that a lusoria table was used (a marble surface with holes, where marbles could fall).
The area between the Litoranea, this deviation in Latina, is called Colle Parito, where the toponym recalls a medieval female monastery that was called "De Parietinis", because it was also built using the remains of the walls of a Roman building.
The area was the site of an important prehistoric settlement, attested on the high banks of a large river in the swamp, the current Cicerchia, which entered the Fogliano lake, after having collected the waters of a vast basin, with an estuary that still corresponds to the wide recess of the lake. Traces of this settlement and the hunting and fishing activities practiced there remain in the frequent finds of lithic industry on siliceous pebbles; therefore considered as the capital of the Pontine Upper Paleolithic, Colle Parito also testifies to the relationship between the hinterland and the island of Palmarola, reached for the supply of obsidian, the precious black material, whose use seems to have been linked to the production of sharp small blades and spikes, to be used for a sacred tattoo shape."

And this is only a small part of what is ancient in my area! What do you say, are there enough antiquities?
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Attila,

It is difficult to imagine +2000 years of history in Italy. That probably explains all
the historical buildings, palaces and castle walls. There is evidence of native american tribes in Minnesota for 9000 years. They were skilled adaptive hunters but existed in such
small numbers they did not leave behind any large urban areas or structures.

So, Minnesota representing Western Culture, has only been around 200 years with
larger developed urban areas for only 100 years. I do enjoy the wide open spaces,
trees. lakes and mosquitos.

I won't be digging up any bullets here in the garden. Stoned chipped indian arrow heads are everywhere.

Bob Copeland
Frostbite Falls Minnesota
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Bob Copeland wrote:
Attila,

It is difficult to imagine +2000 years of history in Italy. That probably explains all
the historical buildings, palaces and castle walls. There is evidence of native american tribes in Minnesota for 9000 years. They were skilled adaptive hunters but existed in such
small numbers they did not leave behind any large urban areas or structures.

So, Minnesota representing Western Culture, has only been around 200 years with
larger developed urban areas for only 100 years. I do enjoy the wide open spaces,
trees. lakes and mosquitos.

I won't be digging up any bullets here in the garden. Stoned chipped indian arrow heads are everywhere.

Bob Copeland
Frostbite Falls Minnesota
Bob, I say I'd rather find arrowheads instead of bullets and unexploded mines ...
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Attila,

I've visited the US memorial at Anzio. My friend and I spent about 2 hours there and neither of us were able to say a word for at least the next 2 hours. It's a bit stunning.
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lomunchi wrote:
Attila,

I've visited the US memorial at Anzio. My friend and I spent about 2 hours there and neither of us were able to say a word for at least the next 2 hours. It's a bit stunning.
Every time I pass it (at least two or three times a year, before the covid, I stopped there); Anzio is a few miles (15) from my home.
During the fighting connected the landing of Anzio I lost my maternal grandmother (aerial strafing),a little aunt (6 years old, mina) and three uncles (mines).
The uncles had gone looking for food even though they knew it was dangerous ...

Latina (ex Littoria):
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Archaeologist here!
I dug Roman towns, pre-roman towns, necropolis, found 34 medieval castles and am currently finishing a research on some Cooper Age findings together with the Massachussetts Institute of Technology.
It's fascinating. Also frustrating. What I regret more is that in Italy we didn't adapt the Uk-Us approach to cultural heritage management to our context.
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Archeologo de che..?
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Attila wrote:
Every time I pass it (at least two or three times a year, before the covid, I stopped there); Anzio is a few miles (15) from my home.
During the fighting connected the landing of Anzio I lost my maternal grandmother (aerial strafing),a little aunt (6 years old, mina) and three uncles (mines).
The uncles had gone looking for food even though they knew it was dangerous ...

Latina (ex Littoria):
Sadly I was going to ask which side did the damage to your family but in the end it just doesn't matter, does it?

Sorry for your extreme loss.
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lomunchi wrote:
Sadly I was going to ask which side did the damage to your family but in the end it just doesn't matter, does it?

Sorry for your extreme loss.
In fact, it is not important ... The important thing is not to repeat the mistakes that lead to wars.
There are other finds that there are reminders:

Recovery of an american air fighter in the sea beach of my city and an amphibious Sherman at Salerno.
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I totally agree with Attila!

My family has been damaged by the fascists (both grandfathers persecuted for not wanting to join the fascist party), by the nazis (two uncles brought to lagers in Germany, hopefully they both came back, one without a leg and the other so emaciated his mother didn't recognize him) and by the Allies (house destroyed in one of the bombing of my town).

In the end they all did their part during the war, fighting the regime even before the world knew what was going on in Italy (the first recorded act of resistance by one of my family dates to the end of the '20ies, another was awarded 2 medals by General Alexander because he helped allied pows rejoining their troops, another saved a fascist doctor from execution by fire squad after the liberation, allowing him to later give birth to two wonderful kids, etc).

Thing is everyone loses something in war, even on the winning side, and I totally agree with Attila.

Back to archaeology, there's a Bf110 wreck off the coast of Marche region, and fun fact: after the war my grandfather (the one who saved the fascist doctor) built a fishing boat cutting in half an external fuel tank dropped by an American warplane!
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Attila wrote:
In fact, it is not important ... The important thing is not to repeat the mistakes that lead to wars.

Sadly, we're very, very slow learners. And there's always someone to profit....
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My wife and I took a river cruise from Paris to Normandy and back during the spring of 2019. San Diego is home to two military cemeteries and I've been them both. They are majestic memorials to the many who gave all.

However, nothing prepared me for the emotions I felt when I entered the American cemetery in Normandy. Moreover, the grateful attitudes of the locals towards Americans was something I did not expect to experience. I suspect many of y'all have been there and I hope your experiences were as profound.
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Attila wrote:
In fact, it is not important ... The important thing is not to repeat the mistakes that lead to wars.

My wife's mother was a refugee during the war. First they ran to Czechoslovakia to avoid the Nazi, Then the Nazis got there. Then they had to escape back into Germany to flee the Russians because they were Germans.
My ancestors came to the States from Poland/Prussia/Russia (you pick) in about 1902. Apparently not the greatest of times for them either.
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Outside of Rome there is a memorial at the Ardeantine Caves. There, the Germans executed over 300 random Italians in response to a street bombing that killed about 30 soldiers. Among those executed were a former Italian Army general and a priest. The executions took all day and when they were finished, the Germans dynamited the entrance to the caves. They were opened after the war and the dead were interred together at that spot. You can walk from grave to grave, each has a picture and name. You won't be able to speak for several hours afterwards. My wife was so overcome, she couldn't finish walking through the cemetery.
Outside of Lucca, there are tours of the Gothic Line fortifications built by the Germans. There is a small WWII museum located in the train station at Borgo a Mozzano.
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Off Omaha Beach one can still see the remains of the "mulberries"; the artificial docks that were dragged across the Channel to be used to offload men and material to take the fight to the Wehrmacht.
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I just wanted to add one thing ... Today, even in a different dimension of competition between countries, Europe is a different reality; when I talk about the past war I don't mention the "Germans" ... I write and say "Nazis", peoples are responsible up to a certain point but there is always a small group that takes advantage to dominate them and trigger conflicts. Today in Italy at the commemorations of the Second World War, we avoid using the word "Germans" when talking about atrocities committed in the name of war.
It is rebuilt not on hatred but on good relations between peoples, this was the mistake made after the 1918 (First World War) (it is history and not politics), there was no reconstruction but only punishment and hatred. Very wisely after the Second World War, those who wanted to be helped to rebuild even on a social level then also rose economically, giving rise to a stable community.
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Watching some of the shows on TV about the remnates left over from so many wars makes me wonder what could the world be like if all that energy and money beeen focused on improving things for people instead of killing people.
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kshansen wrote:
Watching some of the shows on TV about the remnates left over from so many wars makes me wonder what could the world be like if all that energy and money beeen focused on improving things for people instead of killing people.
Totally agree.
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War is big business if you are in the arms trade.
Profits to be made by supplying one side or the other...

or both sides.

Ultimately, the price is paid by the women and children affected by the conflict.
(No political intention implied.)
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Today in the field, i found a piece of bomb, tomorrow I take the photo ... it broke two knives of the tractor grass cutter (200 €). Grrrr ..!
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