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Facepalm emoticon

am close to the end of the 5th decade of my life and kinda was thinking I saw/heard it all. boy was I ready for surprise today.

my Froggy started having starting problems after the last (10k km) service, sometimes wants to start, often not, no matter blue or red (pill?) key. I wrote and discussed about this on this topic: 2 GTS' 2 different starting problems

although I had appointment in the service for next Monday, they told me to bring the Froggy today, "maybe they get some free spot to start working on it". great. as soon as was possible I brought it to the shop.

whilst interviewing me for the issues, owner asked me "how heavy is your keychain?" you can imagine the expression on my face in that moment What The? emoticon

ok, before you start accusing me for having the whole Alcatraz's keychain on me, here is what I got on it: blue key, top case key, lock key and a small tag-ident-plate. no, there was no my favorite brick attached to it nor the bi-hex key size 32. no no, just those listed items.

he said to me that they have had this problem quite often as the reason why fairly new GTSs were not starting.

just for the moment I thought that it must be some kind of Candid camera involved in this, after all the hustle I had with the damn thing!

he said: "I am not going to take the money from you, get the blue key from the chain and let us give it a try"

Wha? emoticon

well after this only thing I could do was Clap emoticon Clap emoticon Clap emoticon

we've agreed that I come on monday that we check the error codes of the ECU and clear the cache, of course I have insisted to pay them something for this fantastic piece of Vespa related Wisdom. till then I'll be testing Froggy as much as I can, to get my confidence in it's starting reliability.

so, boys and girls, diet topic is not about you nor what do you carry with you, is just how much can poor key lock / igniter switch handle!

P.S. dear Piaggio, if any of you from Customer Service are reading this, please oh please enable us carrying more than 2 keys on the key chain! pleeeaaaseeee
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This is actually a subject that used to come up regularly on MV.

Here is but a single post on the subject, there are probably hundreds more: https://modernvespa.com/forum/post1447721#1447721
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jess wrote:
This is actually a subject that used to come up regularly on MV.

Here is but a single post on the subject, there are probably hundreds more: https://modernvespa.com/forum/post1447721#1447721
am driving Vespas since 2010. this is first time to have this problem and that I have heard about this
⚠️ Last edited by PreddyBaer on UTC; edited 1 time
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I know other things hanging from the key can interfere with the RFID interrogation, and can break off the hole, but I cannot see how the weight as such can interfere with the electrics (as opposed to the RF as above).
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jimc wrote:
I know other things hanging from the key can interfere with the RFID interrogation, and can break off the hole, but I cannot see how the weight as such can interfere with the electrics (as opposed to the RF as above).
as mechanical engineer I would fully agree with you

on that key chain there is only Vespa's blue key that has RFID, so am also perplexed by the outcome of this

as I wrote before, will do the rigorous testing (also on poor quality streets) to check if the mechanical shocks can disrupt anything
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I wonder about the rings that hold the keys together - if they were anything like a tuned circuit for the RF signals, they could act as shorted turns and completely squelch the RF.

I'd be curious enough to experiment with different combinations of the items you used to have hanging off.
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Smartphone ... Some people put it in the glove compartment.
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Attila wrote:
Smartphone ... Some people put it in the glove compartment.
Hi Attila,

I guess it is easiest to blame the customer?

in my case, I had only 3 absolutely necessary keys on my key-chain (one to start/use Vespa, one to open the TopCase and one to lock the Vespa so it does not end in somebody's van crossing the German borders outwards leaving me to deal with the police and insurance)

even if people leave the smartphones in the glove compartment, that should be ok, since all newer GTSs any way have the USB plug for charging one

and if Piaggio engineers managed to use same/similar frequencies for key RFID to what use smartphones, I guess the customer is the last one to be blamed about that

furthermore RFID is digital, meaning it needs to have some protocol to communicate with the chip on the key. again, if Piaggio engineers have selected to use same protocols like the smartphones, is barely the fault on the customer side. and those protocols use codes ...

coming back to the weight of the keys: by checking the picture I have posted here https://modernvespa.com/forum/post2485323#2485323 it looks like that Piaggio has changed the P/N of that ignition switch. The reasons for that could be different, starting from change of the Supply Chain, Cost reduction etc. since this issue did not occurred on earlier models (at least not to me and people I know, we all changed or possess GTSs with year of making since 2009, 250ie and 300ie models), the logical is to expect is that either the new ignition switch is not fully compatible with the mechanical part of the lock or somebody scr****d the requirements to the new supplier of the ignition switch (very often case in companies with the big Supply Chains where Pencil Pushers run the business and ignore the engineers).

so, DEAR PIAGGIO, I hope you are reading this and you will offer the solution for existing customers, or at least save the new customers of similar troubles.
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jimc wrote:
I wonder about the rings that hold the keys together - if they were anything like a tuned circuit for the RF signals, they could act as shorted turns and completely squelch the RF.

I'd be curious enough to experiment with different combinations of the items you used to have hanging off.
Jimc,

This does not look like the robust design (am mechanical engineer, aerospace)! Decision makers (on purpose using this term instead of engineers) must know, when writing the design requirements and executing them, to account for all the "inventiveness" to be expected from the customers (from Paris Hilton up to the Neil Armstrong skilled person). It is called creating the design such to be "stupid free" and also not to allow that just small change in input parameters makes results un-usable.

I'll leave the "testing" to PIAGGIO's Engineers and Customer Service
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PreddyBaer wrote:
Hi Attila,

I guess it is easiest to blame the customer?

in my case, I had only 3 absolutely necessary keys on my key-chain (one to start/use Vespa, one to open the TopCase and one to lock the Vespa so it does not end in somebody's van crossing the German borders outwards leaving me to deal with the police and insurance)

even if people leave the smartphones in the glove compartment, that should be ok, since all newer GTSs any way have the USB plug for charging one

and if Piaggio engineers managed to use same/similar frequencies for key RFID to what use smartphones, I guess the customer is the last one to be blamed about that

furthermore RFID is digital, meaning it needs to have some protocol to communicate with the chip on the key. again, if Piaggio engineers have selected to use same protocols like the smartphones, is barely the fault on the customer side. and those protocols use codes ...

coming back to the weight of the keys: by checking the picture I have posted here https://modernvespa.com/forum/post2485323#2485323 it looks like that Piaggio has changed the P/N of that ignition switch. The reasons for that could be different, starting from change of the Supply Chain, Cost reduction etc. since this issue did not occurred on earlier models (at least not to me and people I know, we all changed or possess GTSs with year of making since 2009, 250ie and 300ie models), the logical is to expect is that either the new ignition switch is not fully compatible with the mechanical part of the lock or somebody scr****d the requirements to the new supplier of the ignition switch (very often case in companies with the big Supply Chains where Pencil Pushers run the business and ignore the engineers).

so, DEAR PIAGGIO, I hope you are reading this and you will offer the solution for existing customers, or at least save the new customers of similar troubles.
Dear Preddy, the USB socket is not only dedicated to charging a phone ... And yes, you cannot always blame the customers but when many other owners of the same model do not have the same problems as you do, it is thought that the cause is localized at the customer's responsibility.
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Attila wrote:
Dear Preddy, the USB socket is not only dedicated to charging a phone ... And yes, you cannot always blame the customers but when many other owners of the same model do not have the same problems as you do, it is thought that the cause is localized at the customer's responsibility.
hi Attila,

thanks for the fast response. I guess that your statement (bold red here) is bit diagonally different from what Jess wrote few comments above.

and I wrote that I have, myself, never experienced similar problem with the same number of keys. on my older Vespas I kept all my motorcycles key on one key chain, some of those were also RFID and never had the problem.

the aim of this forum topic was to share the experience and potentially save some of you the troubles and getting ripped off by dealerships/services which might or might know about this issue and still charge you endless hours for chaising the ghost in electric system. The owner of this Vespa Service was very nice and honest, and yes, he has won me as a customer. My previous one was not able to find the problem (which occurred only after visit for a regular maintenance) and charged me for job not being done nor the problem being solved.

and I am sorry if someone's vanity is being hurt by pointing out obvious design flaw, will repeat this: this is as such not the robust design and not expected from premium scooter factory.
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PreddyBaer wrote:
... coming back to the weight of the keys: by checking the picture I have posted here https://modernvespa.com/forum/post2485323#2485323 it looks like that Piaggio has changed the P/N of that ignition switch. ...
one more observation: the old design (which SIP claims is used on almost everything PIAGGIO has made) has also the rubber cover cap, obviously covering the ignition switch and protecting it from elements. new design does not have one! as mentioned before, someone has either scr****d up the requirements or have saved the pennies.
old design igniter switch <2016 models (see on how many designs it was used, according to SIP)
old design igniter switch <2016 models (see on how many designs it was used, according to SIP)
rubber cap/protection for old design igniter switch
rubber cap/protection for old design igniter switch
new design igniter switch (according to SIP for models 2016 and newer)
new design igniter switch (according to SIP for models 2016 and newer)
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Um, I have had the problem. Not on my Vespa yet, but many times with my Kymco aka "KBLUEY". I would hit a severe bump and the force would pull my keychain into the off position. It took awhile to figure out as it didn't happen often. I have since put my keychain on a diet...
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The ignition switch itself (the electrical part) is separate from the ignition key barrel. The only bit of it that is rigidly attached is the outer bit, which is attached to the frame of the bike.

I see no way whatsoever that weighing down the key in the ignition key barrel can make the immobiliser malfunction.

OK, wiggling the key and thus the barrel can cause intermittency in a worn-out switch (BTDTGTTS) but that is NOT what we're being led to believe in this case.

Some combination of RF shielding/interference/whatever may well be involved though.
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Maybe it's not the weight of the keys on the key ring but the quantity of excess metal keys? Might be that all the excess keys cause RF interference, reflections, etc?
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Cosmos wrote:
Maybe it's not the weight of the keys on the key ring but the quantity of excess metal keys? Might be that all the excess keys cause RF interference, reflections, etc?
blue Vespa key is in the closest proximity of the aerial, so should be having clear "line of sight" for the radio waves

furthermore, if Piaggio is surprised that one carries also the Piaggio Top Case key and the lock key together then the blue key only, then .... I better stop typing now, will be kicked out from the forum
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PreddyBaer wrote:
furthermore, if Piaggio is surprised that one carries also the Piaggio Top Case key and the lock key together then the blue key only, then
ALL: Re-Keying A Topcase

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I use this Piaggio TopCase from my ex-Brunhilde (MP3)
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PreddyBaer wrote:
I use this Piaggio TopCase from my ex-Brunhilde (MP3)
Excuses, excuses.
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Cosmos wrote:
Maybe it's not the weight of the keys on the key ring but the quantity of excess metal keys? Might be that all the excess keys cause RF interference, reflections, etc?
Ding Ding Ding...

We have a winner... Clap emoticon

Even on the BMW the antenna ring always had some issues of some kind... The best one was when some people couldn't turn the bike on at some specific service station, due to radio interference... It is a good system, but not foolproof...
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these are my keys, note the clip to let me detach the bunch when I stick the key in the ignition.

Note, i had my oem tobbox re-keyed to match.

PS, do you like my little vespa that matches my actual bike? (of course this is the real reason for this post)
keyring
keyring
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jess wrote:
Excuses, excuses.
Hi Jess,


Excuses on whose side?

If Piaggio's, that I could understand to the un-satisfactory point for me as a customer.

On my side? To be honest, If I have paid for that MP3 topcase almost double to what GTS one costs (it is much better than GTS' OEM, by volumen, construction and overall make), why on Earth do you expect me to play with the lock? Sure if thinker, having plenty of time and garage readily available at hand, why not.

Am still standing at the point that this is poorly designed igniter switch combination with the aerial and mechanical lock.
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Burt37 wrote:
Ding Ding Ding...

We have a winner... Clap emoticon

Even on the BMW the antenna ring always had some issues of some kind... The best one was when some people couldn't turn the bike on at some specific service station, due to radio interference... It is a good system, but not foolproof...
by that logic, GTS is also more metal then the Sprint and Primavera for example. is now the body problem for the aerial to read the codes properly?

that BMW has issues does not wonder me. have owned that brand car once in my life and made myself a promise that, for my own money, will never buy nor maintain in service that brand Bleh emoticon

my Honda CRF1000 uses also the key coded system (think Honda calls this system HISS), never had the problem with this although there I have even one key more attached (side cases and the top case are not from same brand). and OEM Honda key is much bigger/heavier that Piaggio's.

am still of the opinion that Piaggio made mistake with the new design of that igniter switch and, in particular, fact that they omitted that rubber cover for it
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steelbytes wrote:
these are my keys, note the clip to let me detach the bunch when I stick the key in the ignition

PS, do you like my little vespa that matches my actual bike? (of course this is the real reason for this post)
I bought the carabiner (quick detach) same they I learned about this trick with the lock. So, while driving now only blue and top-case keys are in the lock. and works like a charm.

I like and find it cute the little Vespa on key chain. Regarding that, now-modern-pot-grey color, let's say "not my cup of tea". Living in Germany is weather-wise grey enough, could not stand a single grey thing more in my life.
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PreddyBaer wrote:
I like and find it cute the little Vespa on key chain. Regarding that, now-modern-pot-grey color, let's say "not my cup of tea". Living in Germany is weather-wise grey enough, could not stand a single grey thing more in my life.
Sadly the Supertech was only available in black or grey. My old gts was black and i didn't want another black - always looked dirty and also got very hot in the sun. If i could choose any Vespa colour ... probably wouldn't be grey but don't know what I'd choose
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steelbytes wrote:
Sadly the Supertech was only available in black or grey. My old gts was black and i didn't want another black - always looked dirty and also got very hot in the sun. If i could choose any Vespa colour ... probably wouldn't be grey but don't know what I'd choose
I really do not understand what got in the marketing guys head when they selected this grey for a "new" color for 2021/2022. as if they found some huge batch of unused WWII military paint or some old email-pot factory.

same thing here in Germany: can not describe you how many "premium" manufacturers are offering and even nasty pushing this color (Audis, BMWs, Minis ...)

now imagine that color in land where sky is since October till end of April more grey than blue, where streets are grey, houses are grey

sorry to hear you had no choice, really am.

on black color: very good friend of mine has a black car and has done some ceramic coat on this car, has significantly less problems with the dust (or if the dust collects, first time you get to the 5th gear is all gone)
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PreddyBaer wrote:
by that logic, GTS is also more metal then the Sprint and Primavera for example. is now the body problem for the aerial to read the codes properly?

that BMW has issues does not wonder me. have owned that brand car once in my life and made myself a promise that, for my own money, will never buy nor maintain in service that brand Bleh emoticon

my Honda CRF1000 uses also the key coded system (think Honda calls this system HISS), never had the problem with this although there I have even one key more attached (side cases and the top case are not from same brand). and OEM Honda key is much bigger/heavier that Piaggio's.

am still of the opinion that Piaggio made mistake with the new design of that igniter switch and, in particular, fact that they omitted that rubber cover for it
There are no metal body parts between the antenna ring and the transponder in the key...

But the (very small) field created by the antenna ring can (sometimes) be affected by other metal object near the chip, like other keys or other metal objects... Nothing to do with weight or heavier keys...
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ok, update after few weeks

Facepalm emoticon Crying or Very sad emoticon

it happens again, and I think has (almost) nothing to do with the weight of keys

has happened to me twice, this time I can correlate this to the weather/scooter conditions:

in both cases it happened after the rain/very humid weather
in both cases it happened at higher temperatures (ambient/Scooter)

so, since it obviously has to do something with both water and heat, am thinking in next directions:

1st: ignition switch was replaced, that part per se should not be the problem (if it was the problem before at all); but since the newer GTSs (16-) do not have rubber cap for it they could be getting some water in the unit when raining; when steering bar in parked position there is kinda sufficient gap between the collar of the headlight (on steering bar) and the collar created by the knee shields and top of the tie

2nd and 3rd are similar: both emergency kill switch and starting button are kinda partially exposed from back when steering bar in parking position; no matter how seaming highly unlikely, there is a gap between the throttle and the right hand brake; just have placed the order for these 2 inexpensive parts on SIP, will change them and see if this brings something good

4th would be some cable break or short-cutting, please cross the fingers this is not the case

5th would be the immobilizer aerial, this is expensive part

6th: can the killswitch of the side stand cause such a problem?

I repeat from before: I never experienced this problem before with my other 3 Vespas I had, neither any of the friends and people I know who ride Vespas had this kind of problem

do you have any other ideas what could be the cause of all of this trouble?
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Is there a mobile phone relay tower near you?
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Attila wrote:
Is there a mobile phone relay tower near you?
Wha? emoticon

ok, I will pretend that I think that this is serious question

2 last times when this problem occurred happened actually on different places, one close to the lake where only near object was restaurant which was closed that day and the second one happened today in the city near my partner's in-laws (I am not aware of mobile phone relay tower nearby and the mother in law is actually quite nice woman)

mobile phones are in general public usage since when? my Vespa is 2017 model, mobile phones are kinda technology which is cca 20 years in use till 2017.



if the mobile phone network and it's relay stations are problem to the immobilizer system for Piaggio, ok, what should I say here not to sound like an insult? Facepalm emoticon
should I use this to cover the Vespa when intending to start it?
should I use this to cover the Vespa when intending to start it?
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Side stand switches were always a problem with the X9s - I'd suspect that first before the one on the bars! They're in just the place to get road grime thrown up at them.
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jimc wrote:
Side stand switches were always a problem with the X9s - I'd suspect that first before the one on the bars! They're in just the place to get road grime thrown up at them.
Hi Jimc,

Have I understood correctly that the side stand switch could be causing these symptoms? If so, I would order those parts as well immediately.
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PreddyBaer wrote:
Hi Jimc,

Have I understood correctly that the side stand switch could be causing these symptoms? If so, I would order those parts as well immediately.
Either the switch itself or the connections to it. One of my regular X9 service routines was to squirt electrical contact cleaner into the side stand switches, and renew the dielectric grease around the terminals.
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jimc wrote:
Either the switch itself or the connections to it. One of my regular X9 service routines was to squirt electrical contact cleaner into the side stand switches, and renew the dielectric grease around the terminals.
I've set the order in place

and will follow your maintenance tip, especially since Froggy is not any more in the guarantee period and I will pick up some of the maintenance myself

if replacement of all those switches will not give desired result, will need to try to get in contact with the Piaggio directly and see what can be done (the problem was first time reported during the warranty period)

thank you very much for support
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Hi Jimc,


short update: last weekend I have changed the following parts (in addition to previous work):

* starting button
* side stand kill switch
* right hand side kill switch

first start (when Vespa was cold) was without any problems. after a ride I had to park in front of my house to pick up some additional things. When tried to start it again, got the same problem. After some fiddling with the lock, I managed to start Froggy again Facepalm emoticon Crying or Very sad emoticon

since we are getting down the route of finding the root cause, am thinking (after all those other parts changed) of the following:

1st to try to change the mechanical part of the lock; if it is really somehow damaged, it might be causing the lack of good physical contact with the igniter switch and thus proper operation of it; lock bar (picture bellow) looks like hefty piece of metal and can not imagine it was broken
2nd, if that does not help, to think about changing both igniter switch and the connector to the older standard (where I can add the rubber cap); see pictures above (green version)
3rd, as last resort I would change the immobilizer aerial, which is quite expensive part just for tasting the water of what could be done

now, the connector is bit different, the number of wires coming out of it is the same, 4 off (any idea what si what there, anybody?). older GTSs had 3 stops (locked, unlocked, ignition), whilst new ones have 4 stops (locked, unlocked, shoot-me-if-I-know-why-this-stop, ignition). The question is if the old and new lock & ignition switch have same mechanical interface to the body of the GTS. if so, switch to OLD standard should be easy. If not, then I really need to contact Piaggio to seek resolution of the problem, like this situation is not acceptable.

food for a thought?
difference between "old" and "new" lock body (photo Copyright SIP Scooter-shop)
difference between "old" and "new" lock body (photo Copyright SIP Scooter-shop)
difference (any?) between "old" and "new" lock cylinder (photo Copyright SIP Scooter-shop)
difference (any?) between "old" and "new" lock cylinder (photo Copyright SIP Scooter-shop)
lock bar (seams to be same P/N for both old and new GTSs) (photo Copyright SIP Scooter-shop)
lock bar (seams to be same P/N for both old and new GTSs) (photo Copyright SIP Scooter-shop)
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also, could this be a problem?

https://modernvespa.com/forum/post2488907#2488907

when error codes were read from ECU, no traces of it were there
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Remind me - did you eventually get the correct ignition switch (the electrical part) that matches your original from SIP?
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jimc wrote:
Remind me - did you eventually get the correct ignition switch (the electrical part) that matches your original from SIP?
yes, SIP sent the correct one and I have replaced it before the last batch of 3 parts
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Then it's something else that is intermittent. Double-check the antenna wire all the way - especiallt the connections. IIRC someone else recently found a broken wire (these wires are quite brittle) in the harness.
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jimc wrote:
Then it's something else that is intermittent. Double-check the antenna wire all the way - especiallt the connections. IIRC someone else recently found a broken wire (these wires are quite brittle) in the harness.
I have checked the connections of the aerial, have all de-coupled at connector, sprayed with the Connector spray, all put together again.

have also wrote the mail to the Service where Froggy was for the regular maintenance (after which this all started) to see if they know what could it be, have this occurred before and what would be easiest way to get in contact with the Piaggio (all occurred after service in official Service and under the guarantee).

today I have bit more free time and the weather plays the role (warm and humid). will check if it occurs again

will keep you posted
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